Worth Revisiting
 

Here is a story by Astrid Lindgren she told at a convention in
Frankfurt when she won a Peace prize. (Astrid Lindgren is the author
of Pipi Longstocking stories.)

"For all those who now talk of harsher methods and more control, I'd
like to tell a story an old woman once told me. She was a young mother
in the days when people still believed 'spare the rod and spoil the
child.' That is, she didn't really believe it, but one day when her
son had done something, she thought she should spank him with a
switch, for the first time in his life.

"She told him to go out and cut a branch for her. The little boy left
and was gone a long time. Finally he returned, crying and said 'I
couldn't find a switch, but here is a rock you can throw at me.'

"Then the mother started crying too, because all of a sudden she could
see it from the child's point of view. The child must have thought 'my
mother wants to hurt me and then a rock will do just as well.'

"She hugged him and they both cried awhile together. Then she put the
rock on the mantelpiece as a reminder and swore to herself that she'd
never use violence!"



--
The danger to the life and well-being of children
increases in direct proportion to their proximity
to religion and its practitioners.
-Ivan Gowch

Worth Revisiting
 

Nice propaganda!

Doan

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Ivan Gowch wrote:

Here is a story by Astrid Lindgren she told at a convention in
Frankfurt when she won a Peace prize. (Astrid Lindgren is the author
of Pipi Longstocking stories.)

"For all those who now talk of harsher methods and more control, I'd
like to tell a story an old woman once told me. She was a young mother
in the days when people still believed 'spare the rod and spoil the
child.' That is, she didn't really believe it, but one day when her
son had done something, she thought she should spank him with a
switch, for the first time in his life.

"She told him to go out and cut a branch for her. The little boy left
and was gone a long time. Finally he returned, crying and said 'I
couldn't find a switch, but here is a rock you can throw at me.'

"Then the mother started crying too, because all of a sudden she could
see it from the child's point of view. The child must have thought 'my
mother wants to hurt me and then a rock will do just as well.'

"She hugged him and they both cried awhile together. Then she put the
rock on the mantelpiece as a reminder and swore to herself that she'd
never use violence!"



--
The danger to the life and well-being of children
increases in direct proportion to their proximity
to religion and its practitioners.
-Ivan Gowch

Worth Revisiting
 

Doan wrote in message ...
Nice propaganda!

Yep, some of the best as opposed to the lies and sloppy information
you folks provide.

prop·a·gan·da ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prp-gnd)
n.
The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information
reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine
or cause.


Doan

Thanks again for your help, and we happily continue to extend ours to
you in hopes for a speedy recovery from your childhood trauma.

Kane



On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Ivan Gowch wrote:

Here is a story by Astrid Lindgren she told at a convention in
Frankfurt when she won a Peace prize. (Astrid Lindgren is the author
of Pipi Longstocking stories.)

"For all those who now talk of harsher methods and more control, I'd
like to tell a story an old woman once told me. She was a young mother
in the days when people still believed 'spare the rod and spoil the
child.' That is, she didn't really believe it, but one day when her
son had done something, she thought she should spank him with a
switch, for the first time in his life.

"She told him to go out and cut a branch for her. The little boy left
and was gone a long time. Finally he returned, crying and said 'I
couldn't find a switch, but here is a rock you can throw at me.'

"Then the mother started crying too, because all of a sudden she could
see it from the child's point of view. The child must have thought 'my
mother wants to hurt me and then a rock will do just as well.'

"She hugged him and they both cried awhile together. Then she put the
rock on the mantelpiece as a reminder and swore to herself that she'd
never use violence!"



--
The danger to the life and well-being of children
increases in direct proportion to their proximity
to religion and its practitioners.
-Ivan Gowch

Worth Revisiting
 

Ivan,

I post the quote by Astrid Lindgren on the websites for all classes I teach!

I wanted to comment more on the following statement "The danger to the
life and well-being of children increases in direct proportion to their
proximity to religion and its practitioners."

Horrible atrocities to children have been committed and continue to be
committed in the name of religion. However, there are individuals who
consider themselves Christians and who are fighting to change the
cruelty heaped on children in the name of religion. Check out
parentinginjesusfootsteps.org. This website is dedicated to gentle and
loving parenting and the individuals who started and maintain the
website are extremely proactive in combating the old familiar myth of
Biblical hitting!

Good to see you on the ng.

LaVonne

Ivan Gowch wrote:
Here is a story by Astrid Lindgren she told at a convention in
Frankfurt when she won a Peace prize. (Astrid Lindgren is the author
of Pipi Longstocking stories.)

"For all those who now talk of harsher methods and more control, I'd
like to tell a story an old woman once told me. She was a young mother
in the days when people still believed 'spare the rod and spoil the
child.' That is, she didn't really believe it, but one day when her
son had done something, she thought she should spank him with a
switch, for the first time in his life.

"She told him to go out and cut a branch for her. The little boy left
and was gone a long time. Finally he returned, crying and said 'I
couldn't find a switch, but here is a rock you can throw at me.'

"Then the mother started crying too, because all of a sudden she could
see it from the child's point of view. The child must have thought 'my
mother wants to hurt me and then a rock will do just as well.'

"She hugged him and they both cried awhile together. Then she put the
rock on the mantelpiece as a reminder and swore to herself that she'd
never use violence!"



--
The danger to the life and well-being of children
increases in direct proportion to their proximity
to religion and its practitioners.
-Ivan Gowch

Worth Revisiting
 

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:37:34 -0600, Carlson LaVonne
wrote:

==I post the quote by Astrid Lindgren on the websites for all classes I teach!

It's the single most moving anti-child-beating
testimonial I've ever seen. Anyone who can
read that and still think it's OK to deliberately
hurt a child (like our spanking ****** friend
Doan) is a sick puppy indeed (like our spanking
****** friend Doan) .

==I wanted to comment more on the following statement "The danger to the
==life and well-being of children increases in direct proportion to their
==proximity to religion and its practitioners."
==
==Horrible atrocities to children have been committed and continue to be
==committed in the name of religion. However, there are individuals who
==consider themselves Christians and who are fighting to change the
==cruelty heaped on children in the name of religion. Check out
==parentinginjesusfootsteps.org. This website is dedicated to gentle and
==loving parenting and the individuals who started and maintain the
==website are extremely proactive in combating the old familiar myth of
==Biblical hitting!

That may be so, and good for them.

I stand by my words, though. I'm an atheist, and I
find nothing in religion -- any religion -- that's
true or worthwhile. Any moral or ethical lessons
religion offers can be taught and learned in other
ways -- ways that don't involve the supernatural
and/or the wholly fantastical notion of punishment
or reward after death.

[rant mode on]

I think it amounts to spiritual and psychological
abuse to convince children that the supernatural
is real, that there's some infinitely strong and
good, or vengeful, being watching over them and
their loved ones, only to have them discover later
that it ain't so -- which is, I believe, a common
human experience.

Some people react to that realization -- perversely,
it says here -- by becoming extreme in their
religious faith, because the myths that they were
force-fed early on have left them unable to tolerate
the thought that there is really no heavenly eye
watching over them, and that the life they're living
is the only one they're going to get. So they reject
what their eyes and ears tell them, and become
fanatics.

Children rely on their parents, first and foremost,
to explain the universe to them and I'm convinced
it damages their critical and logical faculties to
be made to believe something that just ain't so.

(No, I don't believe telling kids Santa Claus is
real, either.)

The fact that an apparently disproportionate
percentage of religious folks have a harsh,
punitive and uncompromising attitude
towards children is so obvious, we needn't
dwell on it here.

All in all, I think people grow up healthier,
stronger, smarter and more able to think independently
if they have nothing to do with religion, and that
religion is a risk factor for children that wise
parents avoid, as they avoid telling their children
that there's a monster under their bed who will gobble
them up if they're not asleep by 8 p.m.

And if all that weren't enough . . . religion is
complicated -- so complicated its study has
historically attracted some of the best minds in
every generation. The questions involved in
religion are so complex, most people don't know
what they are, let alone have a clue as to the
answers. It's a subject fit for the consideration of
adults, who are able to bring some education and
life experience to bear on it.

Asking children to understand religion is absurd.
Requiring that they accept it without understanding
is, I think, just plain wrong.

[rant mode off]

It's a pleasure to schmooze with you again, LaVonne,
as always.

Hope you and yours are well.

-Ivan

Worth Revisiting
 

Ivan,

I agree with your "rant!" All I'm saying is that I now see religion
becoming more open to alternatives and I see religion, including those
individuals who who consider themselves born-again christians rejecting
the notion of child-hitting for more gentle and kind parenting.

Christians base their practice on the Bible, and the New Testament,
never advocated hitting a child in the name of discipline. If a
"Christian" wants to justify child hitting by Old Testament advice,
especially Proverbs, he/she will need to go through a process of
selective interpretation.

Hey, I want to give recognition to anything that helps a child!

LaVonne

Ivan Gowch wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:37:34 -0600, Carlson LaVonne
wrote:

==I post the quote by Astrid Lindgren on the websites for all classes I teach!

It's the single most moving anti-child-beating
testimonial I've ever seen. Anyone who can
read that and still think it's OK to deliberately
hurt a child (like our spanking ****** friend
Doan) is a sick puppy indeed (like our spanking
****** friend Doan) .

==I wanted to comment more on the following statement "The danger to the
==life and well-being of children increases in direct proportion to their
==proximity to religion and its practitioners."
==
==Horrible atrocities to children have been committed and continue to be
==committed in the name of religion. However, there are individuals who
==consider themselves Christians and who are fighting to change the
==cruelty heaped on children in the name of religion. Check out
==parentinginjesusfootsteps.org. This website is dedicated to gentle and
==loving parenting and the individuals who started and maintain the
==website are extremely proactive in combating the old familiar myth of
==Biblical hitting!

That may be so, and good for them.

I stand by my words, though. I'm an atheist, and I
find nothing in religion -- any religion -- that's
true or worthwhile. Any moral or ethical lessons
religion offers can be taught and learned in other
ways -- ways that don't involve the supernatural
and/or the wholly fantastical notion of punishment
or reward after death.

[rant mode on]

I think it amounts to spiritual and psychological
abuse to convince children that the supernatural
is real, that there's some infinitely strong and
good, or vengeful, being watching over them and
their loved ones, only to have them discover later
that it ain't so -- which is, I believe, a common
human experience.

Some people react to that realization -- perversely,
it says here -- by becoming extreme in their
religious faith, because the myths that they were
force-fed early on have left them unable to tolerate
the thought that there is really no heavenly eye
watching over them, and that the life they're living
is the only one they're going to get. So they reject
what their eyes and ears tell them, and become
fanatics.

Children rely on their parents, first and foremost,
to explain the universe to them and I'm convinced
it damages their critical and logical faculties to
be made to believe something that just ain't so.

(No, I don't believe telling kids Santa Claus is
real, either.)

The fact that an apparently disproportionate
percentage of religious folks have a harsh,
punitive and uncompromising attitude
towards children is so obvious, we needn't
dwell on it here.

All in all, I think people grow up healthier,
stronger, smarter and more able to think independently
if they have nothing to do with religion, and that
religion is a risk factor for children that wise
parents avoid, as they avoid telling their children
that there's a monster under their bed who will gobble
them up if they're not asleep by 8 p.m.

And if all that weren't enough . . . religion is
complicated -- so complicated its study has
historically attracted some of the best minds in
every generation. The questions involved in
religion are so complex, most people don't know
what they are, let alone have a clue as to the
answers. It's a subject fit for the consideration of
adults, who are able to bring some education and
life experience to bear on it.

Asking children to understand religion is absurd.
Requiring that they accept it without understanding
is, I think, just plain wrong.

[rant mode off]

It's a pleasure to schmooze with you again, LaVonne,
as always.

Hope you and yours are well.

-Ivan