----- Original Message -----
From: "Doan"
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking,alt.parenting.solutions,mis c.kids,alt.activism.children
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 3:18 PM
Subject: "Parenting Without Punishing"



I wouldn't this far.


Parent without using punishment? We know. You don't have the capacity.
Many have it and use it. Some got it the hard way, but thinking and
learning.

The idea is to be open-minded and see what kind
of information is useful.

"Open minded?" Come on, Droaner. You can't mean you. All you listen to
is pro spanking propaganda. You've been posting it here for years.

Like my father said, it's always better
to have learned something from an idiot then nothing from a genius.

Ah, but learning something from a genius might be even better. I
suspect he said this right after he whallopped your ass good.

Not that his saying leave out the chance to learn anything from anyone
not an idiot. So much for the logic he taught you...but then we've
known this about you all along.

What get to me is the blind-faith

Gosh, I don't recall Jerry Alborn going on blind faith. And I
certainly know I didn't. I began to study this issue earnestly in
1954. I've hardly let up since. In fact I came from the mindset that
pain and force were acceptable ways of teaching people.

However, I fell into a very severe case of questioning all things I
"thought" were right. You might try it sometime. You are the ones that
rely on what you think is "thought" when it's nothing but operant
conditioning. Real thinking is hard work. And it doesn't mean, as you
continually imply, just learing new information.

into something just because it
sound nice

I'm sure to many CP sounds very "nice" as it fits their compulsive
mental processing patterns. Common thinking errors.

or because some so-called "expert" said so.

Oh, I don't think some of those "so-called 'expert'" folks can hold a
candle to your expert, the child development specialist that can whip
a dachsund single handidly and pince small boys by the back of the
neck until they squeal.

So tell us, has CP proven to be better than non CP parenting? If not,
then tell us, if you'll be so kind, what the relative risks of non-cp
parenting are compared to cp parenting.

See the current
hoopla surrounding the Atkins diet? :-)

See the hoopla around operant conditioning back in the fifties. The
education system thought they had classroom behavior whipped. Of
course they forgot that 80% of all learning is by example. I did my
part in hurrying that along.

It's really funny to watch a roomfull of kids doing minimal
appropriations reinforcement of teachers who think they are in charge.

In fact, such conditioning behavior is natural for a child to use in
early childhood, say from 4 or so to around six. If the child hasn't
had his or her development crippled in that stage, you can see the 5
to 11 year old in action learning how to be a human......cooperation
is the name of the game, and so different from the early years, (which
most of you are stuck in because of the brutal childrearing you
suffered that arrested your development) that they have to work pretty
hard at it.

Most of our games and sociable interactions are practices. Now girls
have gotten into sports and are becoming socialized the same ways boys
are. It's very interesting to watch happen.


Doan

You sure are. Ever now and then you post this about the progressive
and vital searching that goes on for better ways for humans to raise
their children.

You forget of course that what has been going on for thousands of
years, in some cultures, is cargo cult "science." They think doing the
same thing over and over again will get the same results and the world
and society better for it.

Oddly, nothing has changed all that much...EXCEPT...societies that
move away from punitive methods of control of citizens tend to move
toward more civil societies. And those that revert to the childhood,
"you touch my truck and I'll bite you hard" mentality reflected in the
story below.

Anyone that cares to look at reality sees in history where it's all
going about child rearing. Frankly if kids were no better with non-cp,
than cp, that, to an honorable person with ethics, would come out as
"why spank then?"

We know why you folks hit, Droaner, and why you lie to yourself with
nonsense such as this below.

Yet these things are said to be scientific. We study them. And I
think ordinary people with commonsense ideas are intimidated by
this pseudoscience.

See, thinking error, big time. No they aren't. Folks with commonsense
tend to be very open to new ideas and give them due consideration.
They don't dismiss them out of hand as you folks wish to do with
non-cp parenting.

A teacher who has some good idea of how to
teach her children to read is forced by the school system to do it
some other way--or is even fooled by the school system into
thinking that her method is not necessarily a good one.

The careful choosing of analogy is both a science and an art. This guy
missed by a mile. There is NO connection, even remotely, between the
two issues. Unless the teacher was precluded, in teaching reading,
from using a punishment model.

Or a parent
of bad boys,

Ah, now we get down to it. Are bad boys bad by nature, or by training?
Well, I've watch a few hundred raised not only without CP but very
little punishment at all. Whatever exploratory urges they have that
endanger themselves or others the parents had no trouble at all
redirecting...why? Because the children trust the parents NOT to hurt
or MISdirect.

Or are you too stupid to figure out how to direct a child to learn
what he wishes in a non dangerous fashion, faster and better?

after disciplining them in one way or another, feels
guilty for the rest of her life because she didn't do "the right
thing," according to the experts.

Doesn't compute. Once again misleading. There are plenty of "experts"
who have been quoted in this ng telling her to spank. Why should she
feel guiltly?

Because she knows in some part of her, hidden by her own painfilled
childhood, that using pain on children is wrong morally, and dangerous
for humanity.

So we really ought to look into theories that don't work, and
science that isn't science.

I agree. We have been saying that for years about spanking proponents,
especially the experts.

You folks spend about all your debating time trying to refute studies
that show spanking to be injurious, and can't field an real support
for your position, outside of cargo cult support.

I think the educational and psychological studies I mentioned are
examples of what I would like to call cargo cult science. In the
South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw
airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same
thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like
runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a
wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head
like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas--he's
the controller--and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're
doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the
way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So
I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the
apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but
they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land.

(from Cargo Cult Science by Richard Feyman.
Adapted from the CalTech commencement address given in 1974)

With 90% of the population being sujected to CP, and probably closer
to 100 being subjected to pointless punishment, I'm sure he had no
fear whatever his blather would be well received.

On 16 Jun 2004, jitney wrote:

The very title of this thread indicates a the kind of egghead
academianistic theorizing that is so full of **** that such people
need colostomy bags hooked up to their ears.

On the contrary. Some posters here have put this academician
theorizing (that arrose out of laboratory experiments dating to the
20's) into practice. They have tested it. I certainly did. I know
hundreds of others who have.

It works.

If you raise a child
without punishing bad behavior,


Two problems here. One is that much of what parents call "bad
behavior" is either not within the child's control, (tired, sick, lack
of information) or is nature compelled exploritory activity....and is
easily redirected by the parent that thinks instead of hits.

Pain stops learning, and narrows it down to just trust issues. Trust
of the parent. The child learns something alright, but not what I
want them to learn. How to be sneaky. How to be agressive. How to have
relationships empty of trust and full of control struggles.


you are inflicting a criminal on
society and should yourself be held accountable.

Well, let me put it this way. Go find me the criminals that were not
subjected to CP, and we'll compare notes. I'll give you a hint.
Children that aren't hit rarely end up in jail convicted of a crime.

People that advocate
mindless theories

Sorry, it's your protest that is mindless. You obviously haven't been
here long and read the archives. Considerable minding of this matter
has been done. I've studied it since 1954 or thereabouts.

In fact, for the past few decades, as more and more non-punitive child
care takes over less and less juvinile crime is evident. State after
state has done away with school paddling, for the good. Grades up,
violence down.

And please don't ring up Moore and Bowling for Columbine. That year
was one of the lowest years for in school violent loss of life for
many a year.

like this would be far more useful to society if
they removed the grafitti that their hellion brats put up on the walls
in the first place.-Jitney

Interestingly, in my town there is a group of kids and their families
who go out on a monthly project for a weekend, that is exactly
that....removing graffiti.
Merchants and business and clubs like Kiwanis and Elks provide money
for supplies. I know about half the families. Guess what...they don't
spank their kids.

You may wipe the spittle off your chin now, and challenge me.

Want to see the DOJ/FBI data on junenile crime?

Want to bet the media is behind hyping every think a kid does that can
possibly be construed as bad?

Want to point to the world with it's high prevalence of violent child
upbringing, as we do it here with lots of punishment and spanking and
claim spanking is the reason for "improvement" in the social
condition?

I'm game.

Kane