Well, let's have some fun to start.

You've accused me of claiming you are a former poster you claim you
are not. That it's typical of antispank folks to make such accusations.


Let's establish this clearly...you are lil 'o' and observer.

Stop lying about it. Note the three posts that turned up when I
searched the aps ng:

To raise superior kids--move to Sweden
"Clearly all concerned parents should move to Sweden to ensure that
their child
is 'above average.'" It might be easier to just move to Lake Woebegone

Oct 21 2001, 11:36 am by observer - 6 messages - 3 authors

Answered Question
.... Of course, what I really love is the Lake Woebegone way of putting
local school
districts above the national average in high stakes standardized
testing. ...
Sep 28 2001, 2:50 am by observer - 168 messages - 18 authors

What has hapenned to this group?
.... Implied promises abound. Like mythical Lake Woebegone, all children
will
be above average. Wars will cease. Crime will disappear. ...
Jan 3, 11:25 am by Opinions - 28 messages - 8 authors"

Just a coincidence? R R R R R

Now for the fun of it, let's look at your post, and Jeremey's to see
all the logical fallacy and disinformation you both have posted.


Opinions wrote:
Scratch a no-spank and there is a good chance of finding either a hurt
child or a childless idealist dazzled with a utopian dream.

Yes, that certainly fits your new name, observer. Just an opinion. Or
possibly you can collect a series of posts from us and point out where
we are "dazzled" or have a "utopian dream?"

Frankly everyone can see you are reduced to frantic babbling.

So just how "good" is a "good chance," eh?

My own experience with both spanked children and unspanked children and
the adults each has grown into show you have it backward. The spanked
were in treatment centers, jails, and sadly, a few graveyards.

The unspanked...which I've never found in a single mental health
facility...and I've been professionally involved with many, nor once in
a single jail, and I've done various services in those settings. Not
once, lil 'o'

They often
have a heavily alternative mindset.

"Heavily alternative mindset?" What is that I wonder?

They don't believe in hitting kids so they are out of the mainstream? R
R R R R

Many are aging antiestablishment
flower children.

Odd, I'm a conservative that defends the "establishment" to the point
I'm often labled as being an apologist by the opposition. Yet, here I
am, with decades of experience with the establishment, and especially
around child and families issues, and a moderate conservative. I'm anti
Drug, (and an activist), pro Homeschooling, (and an activist) and just
an all around well rounded guy.

Others have acquired some higher education

My goodness. You graduated only 7th grade then? What is it about
education that bothers you so, lil ~'o'? Afraid of facts and
information and logic?

and think
themselves in the mold of some latter day Lord Byron with his
condescending view of the common man.

Nothing in this post so far but ad hom, lil~'o' not a thing.

In many ways no-spanks are snake oil peddlers.

No, we are what came after the snake oil peddlers. You spanking
compulsives are right out of the middleages, and we are the civilized
that came after you.

Mankind is infected
with the disease of spanking for they have the cure - for a price.

I've posted lots of information here, and I'm always available. Ever
seen me put up a fee schedule?

Heck, you can google up non-punitive child rearing information on the
Web, and join groups that support each other in finding ways to parent
without hitting. I'm a member of one of them, and advisor to many
others. So far, not a nickel have I earned.

The
new bottle of elixir is a course, a book, a counselor, or a degree.
Implied promises abound.

Naw, and in fact what's most surprising to folks is that so much of it
is attitude, that they can recall some of the relatives having, like
grandmas. Gentleness, support, guidance, giving up force and obsessive
controlling.

Like mythical Lake Woebegone, all children
will be above average.

Odd, I've seen that somewhere before, I think. R R R R R R

But you are right on this one. If all the children of the world were
raised gently without having to fear pain and humiliation as they tried
to learn, this would be a peaceful world. In fact that's a common
characteristic of the adults I know that were not spanked as children.
They are gentle.

Wars will cease. Crime will disappear.

Probably, or very near to zero. But then, we are a long way from
getting the entire world on board here....but notice the progress. So
many countries that have outlawed spanking.

Of
course, ask for a written guarantee for these hollow promises

What promises? No promises were made.

and
no-spanks will rapidly back peddle as they hurl invectives.

I'll tell you what, I'll draw up a list of promises I'll post right
here, a few days after you or any one of you compulsives posts your
guarantee for the effectiveness of spanking.

After all, that's what this ng is about, no?

Now let's see how he who never reads my posts but oddly manages to
coincidently respond to things in them fares with a little simple
critical thinking and analysis.


Jeremy James wrote:
That's a good analogy. The 'no spank radicals'

No, a radical would seek you out and beat you to a bloody pulp if they
caught you hitting a child. We are peaceful and just use words. Or are
you haven't a fantasy?

on this group remind me of
the old saying "My mind is made up so don't confuse me with the facts".

You got to be kidding. The major arguments for spanking are solidly
based on that mindset.

"I turned out okay," "spanking is not abuse," "............" the
silence there is for all the times facts have been presented and
ignored.

They are so determined to be right that anyone that dares to have a
different opinion infuriates them.

Actually some of us differ with each other. It took two years posting
here and lifetime of observations to finally decide you folks are too
warped to be fixed by persuasion and I moved to the same position I
disagreed with LaVonne about.....that there needs to be law to back up
banning the practice of assaulting children under the banner of
"spanking them with love."

Yes, I choose spanking as a form of
disclipline for my children as a lot of parents do. That is my decision to
make, not the government's and certainly not anyone else's either.

And if you should choose starvation, death, beatings, would that not be
of interest to 'the government?" We, all of us in this country,
Jeremey, are "the government." And we say no, you may not hit your
child anymore and call it love.

And we are going to win. You can see it in the trends if you have the
intelligence to look at data and believe in the facts presented.

More and more countries have done it, even Canada with a long tradition
of BEATING under law now has it so restricted there's hardly anything
left to hit and call it spanking.

If
another parent chooses NOT to use spanking as a form of disclipline, that is
their decision to make.

Oh I see. And if another parent choses trail by fire that's okay too?

I would never question another parent's decision
not to use it, and no one has any place questioning my decisions.

Well of course, and you should question someone choosing not to hurt
their child. But you are wrong about "no one has any place questioning
my decisions." Of you really believed that you wouldn't be here
defending them. Your decisions that is.

And unless you live on a desert island in your own country, or you live
in a country that allows members of it's society to be beaten then no,
you cannot stop us from interferring in your decision to risk making
another misfit in OUR society. Everytime you hit, and for all the times
between you child fears you, even if they say nothing, the potential to
make a criminal, or a mental patient goes up, and up, and up.

You want to be a thug, and treat your children like thugs, go find your
own planet.

If the
parents of my children's friends have choosen to allow me to spank their
child while that child is at my house, then again that is those individuals'
decision to make and no one elses.

I wonder at your obtuseness. You live in a litigenous society. That
child could sue you one day, and the chances are better all the time.
Expecially when we add civil penalties to the new banning law. 0:-
YOu can be sure they'll be there. We aren't wimpy like the Swedes.

So once again...I am NOTopposed to
another parent's decision to not use spanking,

If you really believed spanking was a superior, and much needed tool
for child rearing, why would you not be opposed to others not spanking?
Aren't they then harming their children, and according to some, putting
violent children out in society to run amuck?

You don't care about society, and the safety of yourself and your
family in it? Imagine all those wildeyed, violent, acting out,
unspanked children running around out there doing crime...tsk.

what I have an issue with is
people trying to tell me how to raise my children.

Easy cure. Just leave society. Don't let your kids ever leave the
house. Or find your own country or planet where people agree with you,
or you are alone.

Here, you have to put up with us. And we are gonna getcha, trust me.

Yes, this is a news
group and you have a right to state your opinion.

Boy, you have no idea what a relief that is. Thanks.

Debating an issue means
to view it from all angles, not attacking the other person.

You might hurt lil 'o's feelings if you criticize his posting habits
like that, JJ.

The lengths compulsives will go to to protect themselves from reality
still, after all these years, and an extensive background in mental
health, with a strong grounding in learning theory and methods, amazes
the hell out me. I should know and expect you to be stuck where you
are, but reality seems to escape you, no matter what.

It's as though you hold a light in front of them yet they are so deeply
imbedded in the delusion smacked into them as a child they frantically
declare, "it's dark in here."

Why can't you spank your child when he's one day older than 17 years,
364 days old?

That there should even have to be a law is proof of the madness you
folks have been involved in for all these centuries of drinking your
own snake oil.

When you spank your child her heart hurts. No matter if she smiles and
you feel good.

And, you are a coward to hit someone that cannot fight back.

Of course one day...............................

Kane






"Opinions" wrote in message
ups.com...
Deep inside, older no-spanks are usually very wrath-filled people.
Often they were mistreated as children and never got over it. Anytime
they are confronted with a parent who does not agree with their
extremist point of view, painful memories emerge from their childhood.
The angry child within lashes out at the new proxy parent in their
life. Much like antisocial children, no-spanks take great delight in
antagonizing parents who do not cater to their whim. Whether in person
or in a newsgroup, trying to communicate to a no-spank is much like
trying to talk to a grizzly that feels cornered.

Jeremy James wrote:
Fellow parents:

What has happenned to this newsgroup? It used to consist primarily of
parenets like myself, parents that know that when spanking is used as a
loving discliplinary tool, it is very effective. Parents that wanted to
be
able to discuss this with other parents that felt the same way. Recently
however it seems to consist more of people that simply want to argue with
each other. I.E. people like Kane and LaVonne. These two people have
somehow managed to convince themselves that they are enlightened in some
way, or that they are intellectually superior to the other members here,
or
some other thing. They are neither of course. When I first joined this
group I tried to debate with them, however they do not debate, they
dictate.
Debating means that you are willing to listen to ther other person's
opinion, however they are totally obtuse. They are so convinced that
their
own opinion is right that your opinion must be wrong. If you disagree
with
them you must be a horrible person and you are abusive toward your
children.
When they run out of logical arguments, they resort to insults. In their
world if you spank your children it means that you are an ingorant
redneck,
and probably a pedophile with latent homesexual tendencies as well. Kane
has even implied that I spank my children because I get sexually aroused
when I do so. I have an 8year old and a 5 year old daughter and a 2 year
old son. I use spanking for all three of them because it works. And
this
drives them crazy because I refuse to convert over to their narrow point
of
view. From their viewpoint, if I am spanking my children I must have
some
alterior motive, they cannot accept the fact that there are times when
spanking is the best way to handle the situation. And that I spank my
children because I love them and because IT WORKS!

I have stopped reading anything by either of them and I refuse to reply
to
anything they say. I am sure they will have something to say about this
post but I will not read or respond to it. Not because I am admitting
that
they must be right or because I can't think of anything to say, I simply
refuse to discuss anything with either of them because they refuse to
listen. I encourage others to follow suit.

Jeremy J