Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

The way I view it, there are two key issues that need to be considered in
regard to the views expressed by this article (and in regard to Steve's
somewhat similar views):

1) How consistently do purely non-punitive approaches work?
--------------
For NON-criminal rebellious acts, they do NOT work, they will NEVER
work! You will ALWAYS do NOTHING but create hatred and vengeance
with them!!


The fact that
some parents have marvelous success without needing to use punishment and
write articles about their success in no way implies that all parents who
use those methods would have similar success - and especially does not imply
that parents forced into using such methods without being truly committed to
them the way the author was would have similar success.
---------------------
All you're doing is trying to make any "success" look FUZZY as to
cause, so that you can retain your favorite little sick compulsion!

ALL of those who HONOR their children's freedom to decide for
themselves what they should do, as long as it is not CRIMINAL
under Adult Laws, those parents succeed.

ALL of those who DISHONOR their children's freedom, or LIE about
what they do, and whether it is criminal under adult laws, they
FAIL, and their children hate them, and try to harm them,
JUSTIFIABLY!!!!


What the article
provides in regard to evidence in success is purely anecdotal in nature.
----------------
Nonsense, that is merely your LIE, the results of the abuse of
children are in our prisons, and their abuse has been documented
by penologists for over a century!


Frankly, I view it as hypocritical for Chris to resoundingly vilify
anecdotal evidence when used by people who support spanking (as he certainly
did in past times when I was active on alt.parenting.spanking) yet accept
anecdotal evidence in support of non-punitive parenting methods essentially
without question.
-----------------------------
None such! There is sufficient peer-reviewed research to ban ALL
forms of dishonoring abuse of children, YOU simply characterize it
OTHERWISE IN YOUR *LIE* because you're DESPERATE to preserve your
CHILD-ABUSIVE PERVERSION!


2) How much should society demand from parents? There are limits to how
much freedom children can be given without giving children the power to take
away their parents' freedom.
---------------
Absolute nonsense, giving children their freedom IN NO WAY encroaches
on the true freedom of their parents, their convenience, surely, but
NOT their freedom!


With young children, parents cannot go
somewhere and leave the children at home. With children of any age, it is
usually impractical if not outright impossible for parents to come home from
a place they go with their children without bringing their children home
with them (although sometimes it's practical for the kids to get a ride with
someone else). And there are things that it is dangerous for children to do
without a parent there to supervise.
-------------------
Then they should change their lives around their children, AS THEY
DO AND SHOULD DO ANYWAY! If you didn't WANT children on THEIR terms,
then you SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD ANY!!


If parents WANT to give up the amount of freedom they have to in order never
to coerce their children, that is one thing.
---------------
This is merely your vicious LIE! None such is so!


But in my view, trying to FORCE parents to give up the
amount of freedom
---------------
NOT "freedom", only some imaginary "privilege of abuse" that is
harmful to the child, AND to the parent's character!


In regard to what is fair, keep in mind that adults do not generally have
the power to coerce other adults merely by refusing to cooperate.
----------------
Hahahah! They do NOTHING *BUT* THAT, that IS what the economic WORLD
is all about!!!


An adult
cannot say with his actions, "I'm not going, so you can't go either," or,
"I'm staying, so you have to stay too."
-----------------
They do indeed, or have you never been MARRIED!!!???


An adult can't say, "I'm going to
do this, so you have to supervise me."
-------------------
When you work in human care, especially elder care, they certainly do!!
You have chosen to have children!! You SHOULD NOT have if you didn't
want those obligations! Having children is a debt of obligation!!


Unlike Steve, I view life as an opportunity, not a burden.
-------------------
YOU view children as some "burden", mine were a joyful opportunity,
so you're lying like a **** here.


And I don't
think that parents' having the power to choose when to put their own desires
first and when to put their children's first in regard to such issues is an
unreasonable price for children to pay for that opportunity.
---------------------
Then you must never have been a parent, THAT *IS* what parenthood *IS*!!


That certainly
does not mean that I view it as appropriate for parents to order their
children around without even trying to ask nicely, nor does it mean that I
have any respect for parents who almost always put their own interests ahead
of their children's.
------------------------
You simply have no proper boundaries, so you can't be specific about
anything, whereas *I* CAN!!


But I'm not going to condemn people as bad parents
just because they decide to put their own desires' ahead of their children's
at times - even if it means that they sometimes have to coerce their
children rather than allowing their children to coerce them.
Nathan
------------------------------
Nonsense, nothing of the kind is needed, people can find ways to NOT
dishonor their children's rights if they think, and adapt! Foremost
among these methods is to LOVE AND HONOR your children's rights so
that they will LOVE and HONOR you and do you favors, just as YOU do
for THEM! If you respect your children, you will be shocked how
willing they are to defer their pleasure for your needs, ABSOLUTELY
SHOCKED!! Where did you think self-giving affection becomes desired
by children, except by your example in your honoring treatment of
them!!

Moronic abusive parents keep trying to force their lives by bullying and
pushinbg their children around, and THEN they wonder why their children
hate their ****ing guts and get into trouble! THE ANSWER IS
OBVIOUS!!!!!!!
Steve