On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:22:31 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:

Kane, if all you can do is spout insults, then you have truly lost
your
argument.

"Kane" wrote in message
. com...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:50:17 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:


"Gerald Alborn" wrote in message
...
Dennis Hancock wrote:

"Kane" wrote in message

No Kane, it's apparent that only YOU see direct links which
do
not
exist.

No, I am not the only person to see such links. Those doing
research
in brain scans and behavioral observation research are my
sources. As
well as my own long history of observation and treatment of
abused
children.

Your knowledge of brain scans has already been proven faulty
and
you
continue with it?

I must have missed what you thought was proof, Dennis. Care to
post
it
again?


*I* didn't -post it Gerald, someone else did and Kane effectively
backed
down on his claims.

"Effectively backdown?" Is that weaselspeak for "I couldn't debate
him
fairly"

EXACTLY. You've attempted to twist at every turn, you've attempted
to put
words into the mouths of others, and in fact backpeddled on many
issues.


Just as his 'wealth' of experience eventually boiled
down to his reading of parenting books and personal observations
upon
further questioning by myself and others.

Apparently you missed the many citations of researchers, but that's
okay. It's common for the victims of intergenerational cp to be
neurotically selective and hysterically blind to anything that
brings
into question their carefully built artifice that preserves their
world view.

Your research was shown to be nothing but nonsense, brain scans
cannot
measure emotions or other factors. And it's blindness not to see the
generation of misfits your thinking has brought into being.



Just as there is a long history of nonsense from people who
claim
that
spanking is abusive.

Again you're making assertions for which I've seen no proof
offered. Care
to
back up your words?

Can you even read? Kane has said all along that he considers
spanking as
abusive, in fact at one point, called one 'cruel' for punishing a
toddler
who could not comprehend right from wrong.

You are correct. I do not think Alborn was asking you to give proof
of
what I said. Obviously you have some crawfish DNA grafted into
yours.

Bull**** Kane, he WAS asking ME to give proof, which has already been
posted
here by others. As for crawfish, you'll note that I haven't backed
down a
bit in my position, nor have I weaseled around and contradicted
myself as
many times as you have in this debate.



They are too caught up in their own self righeousness
that they cannot comprehend the damage that they are creating.

Damage, caused by people who advocate against hurting children?
So
it's
people
who strongly advocate and practice only kind and respectful
treatment of
children and NOT those who think nothing of dishing out pain,
punishment,
humiliation and disrespect, who are the ones causing damage?
Again,
anything to
back up what you insist upon believing?

Take a good hard long look at the public school system, the
complete
breakdown in discipline and you can see EXACTLY what damage has
been
done.

A good long hard look will show you that there is NO such thing at
all. Children are safer in school than they are at home. There are
more injuries and deaths that take place at the hands of their
parents
and caregivers than by school personnel or fellow students.

Again, your ignorance of the facts are showing Kane. Children are
NOT safer
in school, not even with the narcs on campus, or the metal detectors
at the
entrance ways.

This is the typical liberal bull**** that is attempting to take away
ALL
parental rights by the bogus claims that children are injured more at
home
by 'caregivers' and parents than at school. How about the schools
which
cover up incidents of abuse? I personally know of several cases
involving
lawsuits where children have been abused in the schools. We've had
several
incidents recently where a teacher taped children's mouths shut with
duct
tape.

And then you tend to forget the emotional abuse which occurs.. No
Kane,
some parents DO abuse their children and injure them, but you cannot
possibly show any true statistics to back up those claims that they
are
'safer' in the public schools. Nor even in the private schools,
given the
history of abuse by priests in the Catholic church in this country.


You are a media casualty. Don't feel bad we all fall for it from
time
to time.

*I* am a media casualty?? LOL.. YOU my friend are a casualty of
nonsensical
doublespeak by psychologists who think they can analyze children and
apply a
single rule to all.

Anyone who thinks they can learn parenting from a book is bound to
eventually realize that they can throw the book away once they
realize their
children are not exactly alike. Perhaps you lack some bit of common
sense
in your background because apparently, you failed to learn that
lesson.

Any search of relevant data on the safety of children, mortality
tables, etc. especially from the CDC and the DOJ will show you to
be
miles from the truth.

Post your facts then if you have them. It is YOU who are making the
claim.


Now just like Alborn I'm going to ask you to support your
contention
that there is a "complete breakdown in discipline" vis a vis the
schools with some proof.

How many metal detectors did you see when you were in school? How
many
'narcs' and school police were routinely placed on campus as a matter
of
common nature?

How many riots took place on campus in our day? How many shootings
by
students occurred. I can tell you, EXACTLY NONE. Nationwide.

And you need more proof?


You make the claim, you accept responsibility for proof or show
yourself as ignorant or a liar. Your choice.

NO, you are showing yourself as a complete ass who cannot face
reality.


The fact that people like yourself and Kane equate any and all
punishment
which may involve some sort of humiliation or pain as 'cruel and
unusual'
punishment has led to an utter breakdown of discipline throughout
society.

I do not recall using the "cruel and unusual" punishment argument.
I
will say it is cruel. It isn't hard to see that it is when you take
a
150 to 200 pound adult whalin' on a 30 to 40, or less, child. It's
bullying.


Bull**** Kane.. You are again confusing spanking and abuse. Quite a
difference. You are dishonest and your ONLY reason for posting your
nonsense is to attempt to take away parental rights. I consider it
abusive
NOT to instill discipline in a child or to give a small child a swat
to keep
them out of harms way.

As for "unusual" I don't think spanking is unusual. I think it is
far
too usual.

I suppose you, like Kane are going to make the stretch that after
centuries
of acceptable spanking, even at the extremes in the past, that
THAT
is now
responsible for the condition of society today, even considering
the
fact
that non-spanking has gained a lot of following over the past
thirty
or
forty years, and the psychobabble that anyone who decides their
child
may
need some discipline is somehow abusive has attempted to put a
stigma
on
even the mildest of discipline?

I have seen postings again and again that even in the US, a
supposedly
enlightened nation, over 90 percent, sometimes even 98 percent of
parents spank or adults say they were spanked. With numbers like
that
how can you possibly defend that non-spanking is the culprit for
yoru
imagined breakdown in discipline?

Where are those statistics Kane? Apparently, you are backpeddling
again
since YOU personally have claimed that the rich and powerful do not
spank,
and doubt they ever spanked throughout history.

You've been around non spanking parents for most of your nearly 70
years..
YOUR OWN WORDS. Now then, you either admit you are a damned liar, or
your
'experience' and 'observations' were very limited indeed.


In fact teens, a good indicator, have shown a steady decline in
criminal behavior over the past decade and before...all the while
as
non-spanking grows and teachers and others, including parents,
strive
to develop skills at non-punitive parenting.

Actually, the stats I recall from memory is that crime has declined
steadily
overall, but teen crime has risen slightly.



People who were physically abused generally resort to physical
abuse
themselves. It's a never ending cycle, yet you still refuse
to
differentiate between abuse and spanking,


Did you ever wonder how or why spanking is propogated from one
generation
to the
next in spanking families, just as severe physical abuse is
propogated
multigenerationally in other families? Do you think spanking
somehow
propogates
itself because it's such a good idea, rather than because abuse
works that
way?

Yawn.. again, you try to confuse spanking with abuse.


Non of us are confused except you spanking freaks in denial. You
and
other just like you continually claim that pain teachs, yet deny
that
spanking is painful. Or you seem to when you claim it isn't
"abuse."
Pain inflicted to get your way is nothing BUT abuse. More
especially
non-pain, non-punitive methods have been shown to be superior
repeatedly.

Bull**** and your use of the word 'freaks' shows how truly biased and
bull
headed you are.

Your losing it dude.


Your denial of Embry's work is a perfect example of your frantic
scramble to protect your sick model of parenting.

LOL.. your denial of Pavlov's work shows that you consider young
children
not as intelligent as a dog.


Then please explain
how, with the disappearance of corporal punishment in the public
schools,
that any and all respect and discipline has vanished along with
it.

Do you not think it odd that exactly where cp in the schools
prevail
they have the worst records of behavior and the lowest academic
scores? Take a look at Texas, one of the hot for paddling state,
for
instance. Or try Alabama, Arkansas, or Oklahoma.

Sorry, again another outright lie. CP has been banned in ALL states
of the
union. Nice try but it aint working.

And before your lil buddy jumps in wanting my proof, again, it is YOU
who
made the outlandish claim, not I.


Yes, everyone knows that abuse propogates from generation to
generation, but
any parent worth their salt also knows how their own children
react
to
outside stimuli. Some children never need to suffer a spanking
while
others
may well need a physical reinforcement. But of course, to you and
Kane, you
can use 'reason' and set guidelines which have absolutely no
consequences
for the child.

You neglected, in the beginning of this article to acknowledge my
claims to have worked with children who had been spanked and
punished.
I noticed that.

And you neglected all along to ignore my claims that I too have
worked with
children from both sides of the fence.. also with abused children as
well.

And I WAS in a position where I had complete control and had to
instill
discipline in a class setting and learned quite readily which ones
been
spanked, which ones had been abused, and which ones were adapt at
dealing
with control and discipline.


I worked with children so screwed up by parenting NOT fit or
allowed
to be used on animals that they had become dangerous to themselves
and
others. I turned them around with gentle and non-punitive methods.

Ahh, there's the kicker Kane, and you are too stupid to see it. I
have a
nephew who was physically abused by his father. He did not respond
to
spanking, even light spanking it only made him angrier, so yes, your
approach did work quite well with him. That is where you are screwed
up,
you cannot differentiate between children and their needs. You seem
to
think that the exact same treatment can be used on all.. believe me,
it
cannot. You have never worked with hyperactive children have you,
well I
have.


They were so screwed up it took longer for them to get that I
wasn't
punishing them than it did for them to turn around when they
finally
accepted I wasn't.

Of course it will work with some. Especially those who were abused.
But
try it with a child who has merely been swatted on the butt with the
open
hand as punishement and it seldom works. They learn they can 'get
away'
with something.

You seem confused Kane. You don't realize that children learn at a
very
young age how to play parents against each other. If one is of your
ilk,
and the other a spanker, they would drive you crazy. No, I
seriously doubt
you've had very much 'experience' in dealing with children, perhaps a
few,
but not the 'wealth' of experience you try to lead us to believe.


The hardest part was getting them over thugs like you.

LOL.. there you go, losing it again guy. For a supposed retired Air
Force
Colonel, I suppose you kissed the guys asses to get em to do their
work.


or show proof that those who spank
for disciplinary reasons or teaching their child correct
behavior
at a
very
young age

What's wrong with modelling correct behavior, giving an
abundance
of time
and
loving attention to young children, treating them respectfully,
and
catering to
their genuine needs so that they have no pent-up emotional
energy
motivating
them to exhibit bad behavior?

LOL.. what a moron you are proving to be. Treat them respectfully
and they
will have no pent up energy? LOL You truly keep digging yourself
deeper
into a hole here.


WHO said it was wrong? You want to pick apart every statement and
try to
put words into my mouth?

He isn't suggesting it's wrong or not. He's suggesting using it,
and
if you missed that you are truly in sad shape.

Apparently, you cannot read well,OR comprehend.




Although I think I can see how you just managed to weasel out of
answering the meat of his question. Why spank if you have all those
other things going for you? Sounds like he expects you to be a good
parent that DOES use those things. Me, I'm not so sure about you at
this point. You are too wedded to abuse for my taste, and trying to
deny it by calling it something else.

LOL.. you are a moron Kane. You still confuse spanking with abuse.
You are
so dead in your mindset that you cannot possibly see reality.

They used to say that slavery was good for the darkies too. And
that
women, by their natures, just couldn't think for themselves.

There you go again, wild, outlandish claims attempting to claim the
high
moral ground by being dishonest. I wondered when the race issue
would enter
the picture.

We seem to have gotten over that, but it took a damn war. I'd like
you
assholes to wake up before the there has to be laws to do it for
you.

LOL.. DUH.. there should be a law against assholes like yourself
who
haven't got enough sense to deal with the real world. You do more
damage
than good and are too stupid to relaize it.

There ARE laws against abuse Kane. But YOU apparently seem to want
to
control everyone's ability to rear their children as they see fit and
consider anything other than what you consider acceptable as
unacceptable.
You are a closed minded asshole who deserves no further responses.

**rest snipped and unread as being the irrelevent rantings of a
luncatic**

I am not a "lunicatic."

Have a nice day asshole.

It is certainly fun to watch you jump up and down and froth at the
mouth. By the way, you posted a series of lies about me, but hey, we
expect that from the spanking freak folks. They don't have anything
else going for them, and they know it.

By the way, I think I recall that you opened this blathering tirade
with the snappy homily:

"Kane, if all you can do is spout insults, then you have truly lost
your
argument."

Can we count on your promise: "You are a closed minded asshole who
deserves no further responses."

R R R R R R

Bingo bango bongo

Stoneman