"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
news
"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Bob Whiteside" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"April" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"John Larkin"

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:56:31 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


"John Larkin"
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechno logyPART.com wrote in
message
news:k58r9314s5d0bpnn6tgndii8k5 ...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:38:32 -0700, "teachrmama"

wrote:


John, think about it. How would you feel in a
situation like that. (And
please don't go all preachy on me and tell me how you
would *never* behave
in such a way as to create such a problem)


I have no idea. I wouldn't get into a situation like
that.

How did I know that you were going to say that. So,
John, I would like a
bit of clarification from you. Do you feel that it is
ok
for a woman to
conceal from a man the fact that he is a father until
12
years have passed,
then demand current child support plus 12 years of back
support? Do you
feel that she is doing right by the child to deny that
child a father for 12
years so she can build herself a nice nest egg?


I'd prefer she didn't, but then if she has fed, housed,
and cared for
his kid for 12 years, don't you think he owes her
something? Even if
she collects $84K, that amounts to $7000 a year, about
80
cents an
hour, not to mention expenses like food and clothing
and
medical.

I would say that when the woman can give the man HIS
SHARE
of the hugs and kisses, the first steps and first sords,
the firts day of schools, the "let's paly ball, Dad's"
and
wrestling matches and dancing-on-Daddy's-feets, and all
the other wonderful growing up memories that dad's and
kids share, then and only then should he pay her "child
support" for all the years she stole from him and his
child. If SHE made the unilateral decision to be a
single
parent for 12 years (while keeping all the wonders of
the
child's growing and development for herself), she should
be not only willing, but obligated, to pay the price
herself.

If you gave your friend a lawnmower, and he mowed your
lawn for you for 5 years, but only did it while you were
at work, and never told you he was doing it, would you
be
willing to fork over several thousand dollars when he
demanded it at the end of 5 years?

Sorry, but I see too many men who abuse their children or
spouses to totally agree with you. To make my point, if
you gave your friend a lawnmower and he broke it while
doing your lawn.... should YOU have to pay for it?

Oh, I see. Because some men abuse their children, all men
should be handed the sh*tty end of the stick?
** I'm not saying that. You were making a genaralization
and
so was I. Each case is different.

That doesn't even begin to make sense, April.
Are you attempting to say that a woman who has a child
without informing the man that she is pregnant, then
demands
12 years of back child support plus ongoing support has
the
RIGHT to do that. because some men have been abusive?
**Nope, wasn't attempting.

No proof necessary that this particular man might become
abusive--just the woman's unilateral decision? I've known
some mothers who have abused their children--does that
mean
that it is ok with you that a father could take his child
and run off with the child, and 12 years later demand 12
years of back child support?
** My Mother left my father with me when I was 2, After 30
years, I finally found my father. My mother told me lies
all
my life. I WAS an abused child. Mentally, Physically and
Emotionally by her. My mother doesn't deserve anything. It
was her choice to keep me away from my father all those
years
and deprive me of having him in my formative years. (
doesn't
matter, come to find out I was always like him even when he
wasn't around lol) I'm just saying you were generalizing in
your post so I retorted doing the same. I don't totally
disagree with you but I don't totally agree either. There
are exceptions.

But, unfortunately, the current CS law does not recognize
that. It's "victim mommy" deserves the money becuase she
raised the child alone. I do not think that a mother who
purposely keeps a child from the father deserves a flipping
penny whe she finally proves paternity. IF she is doing
because of abuse, she needs to PROVE it!! But the system
doesn't care about anything except the almighty dollar. To
heck with a child's need to have 2 parents--only money
matters.



** Isn't that the way the world is with EVERYTHING? Sad I
know, but it's the truth. Money is the most important thing
to
most ppl anymore. Not values.. and certainly not morals.

So let's get this down to your personal opinion--not that it
is
any more important than mine or any other individual's when it
comes to the child support system. Do you, personally, think
that a woman should be able to have a child without informing
the father, raise that child for 12 years, then demand 12
years
of back child support and ongoing support? (Barring any sort
of
abuse, of course) Do you think this is right?


**No I don't. As I said it was her choice to keep the father
away from the child not his. Whay should he have to pay for
her
choice? Now, if the mother is prepared to allow the father
visitation and allow him to get to know his child. I think
from
that point on out he should pay child support. Hard to pay for
something you didn't even know you had.

Yes, that's my take on it also. Some places, however, still
charge a man back to the birth of the child, no matter what.
Other places have recognized the unfairness of using a man as a
savings account without his knowledge, and limit the amount of
time they charge for. Some have refused to charge any arrearages
at all in such situations.

From your experience growing up without your father, I can see
that you realize first hand how important it is for a child to
have his/ father in his/her life. I wish more people understood
that money will never replace a father. Nor can the hole in the
father's heart be healed by telling him "but you get to pay for
all the time you missed."

** Well, I had to leave my son's father. He was very abusive to
me
and was starting on our son. I could handle it, but you don't
beat
on a 1 1/2 year old because he won't stop crying because he
doesn't
want a nap. He had anxiety issues and was being medicated for
about
a month. Then he quit. He promised month after month to go back
but it never happened. AFter 3 months State troppers knock on my
door because my husband was caught on surveillance cameras
stealing
over 1200.00 for his job.( he worked retail). I couldn't handle
anymore. I gave him an easy choice. He could forego paying
support
by just signing him totally over to me. He refused. He paid
child
support. He couldn't keep a job,and was constantly behind on his
payments. In over 4 years, he never once tried to see his son yet
would tell me that the name is what's important ( mind you the
child knows nothing about the family name since his father never
saw him) and that he still loves him. I never will understand my
ex-husbands philosophy on all of this. But Alas, I have remarried
and Next month we all go downtown to swear in front of the judge
that my husband is adopting my son. his father finally.. (after
7
years) realizes that our son is better off having a father who
does
things with him and takes care of him. So I guess my story DOES
have a happy ending

I'm very glad to hear that a man who had no wish to be a father
stepped aside so that the man who wants to be the father is free
to
raise your child with you. It's too bad it took the bio dad so
long
to let go. If any child support arrearages have accrued, will you
be
signing a letter of satisfaction saying that they are paid in
full?

I wish you and your family the very best, April. It sounds like
things are working out well for all of you.
** to tell you the truth, he paid up all his back arrears and is
also
paying ofor the adoption. Lawyer's idea and I agree... on one hand
he could be paying the next 9 years of child support or the
$1200.00
for the adoption.. He opted for the latter.

Wait a second. You have a legal CS obligation too. How much have
you
been required to pay all along? Why are you so willing to sell out
your own CS obligation? Do you really think accepting $1200 lets
you
off the hook to support your child?

I don't quite understand what you are asking, Bob. April said her
child's bio father never wanted anything to do with the child, but
refused to sign away his rights. This last year, he said he would
sign
away his rights and let April's husband, who has been raising the
child
along with April, adopt him. He has agreed to pay the $1200 adoption
fee. Then he doesn't have to pay child support for 9 more years for
a
child he has never even attempted to have a relationship with. April
has been doing her part to support her son all along.

Well she has had a pretty sweet deal. She gets CS from the child's
father (he paid all arrears, right?), has a current husband helping to
support her kid, and she doesn't even acknowledge she had any CS
obligation of her own. Her comments have indicated three adults have
been paying to support this kid, but I suspect the people supporting
the
kid are the two men.

I'm asking her how much she was ordered to pay and if she paid it. If
she claims to have been providing her portion of support too then she
has one really well taken care of kid. And the adoption will reduce
the
amount of support from three adults to two adults and make the kid
worse
off. I suspect this is just another case where the CP mom is
shuffling
dollars around and claiming she has been paying her share of CS with
the
money she has been getting from two different men.

Well, Bob, it at least sounds as if everyone is ending up
satisfied--the
man who never wanted the child (just wanted the child to have his name
for a while) does not have to pay anything any more. The child has a
father who wants him enough to adopt him. And mom, dad, and kid are a
family unit. It's better than most of these cases work out. I don't
know
when April married the new husband, or if she worked outside the home.

Does this mean you are backing off on your prior conclusion that "April
has been doing her part to support her son all along"? I hope so. :-)

You know my point - When the money from CS received, support from
subsequent men in the mom's life, and whatever the mom actually
contributes gets mixed into a household budget there is no way to follow
the money. And the lack of accountability for how the CS dollars are
spent on the children is maddening when you know darn well it is being
used in ways far different than the nice, neat way the CS guidelines are
constructed and used to calculate required support.

Well, Bob, I know darn well you know how I feel about how CS is spent.
You
know that the mother of my husband's oldest daughter uses the CS money as
household money, and the lot of the child has not been bettered at all.
But, in reading April's posts, I did not get the impression that she went
from abusive ex to new husband. And she did try to give her ex an out, so
he would not have to pay child support at all.

Nonsense. She need not give him ANY out, as so-called "child support" is an
artificial debt in the first place.

I do think you may be
misreading her.

Actually, with all due respect, it is YOU who is misreading her. The truth,
you will find, is between the lines.