View Single Post
  #10  
Old September 15th 03, 07:06 PM
Kane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ex Giants player sentenced-DYFS wrkr no harm noticed

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:37:49 GMT, "Doug"
wrote:

Kane writes:


And watch Doug try despritely to diverge from the actual point of my
reply and posts do avoid the truth. That he and his are a flock of
****ty little crappers that haven't an honest bone in their useless
bodies.


So far, Doug, you have stuck to your story of fatalies in foster

care
being the same as fatalities caused by foster caregivers.

No such information is available.

The chart in question said clearly, By Bio parents, and IN foster
care. They were not being COMPARED, yet you continually, along with
other fools use data that does not say what you claim it does to

make
a claim that foster caregivers have a higher rate of killing

children
than bio families do.


Hi, Kane!

My statement and the cited reference distinctly DID NOT say BY

bio-parents.

And they are charts that are NOT about who killed who but WHERE IT
TOOK PLACE.

Watch this develop folks. Those of you that have been down this road
may want to kick back with a brewski and watch some TV. This is the
usual crap from Doug, and his refusal to see the OTHER CHARTS THAT
SHOW WHO THE PERPS ACTUALLY ARE.

The references I cited provided data for fatalities due to

abuse/neglect
occurring overall in the general population (including foster care)

and
fatalities due to abuse and neglect occurring in foster care.


Yes, and that is relevant to the issue of who kills the most children
in what way again? Did you miss the word "IN" yet AGAIN?

Parse your last phrase carefully. Even YOU are agreeing with me once
again.

Children that die in foster care from abuse and neglect may well be
dying, as I've pointed out so many times before, from the affects of
injury or neglect received before going into foster care, that is from
their own parents, or even from others.

That particular chart is very carefully worded to NOT say foster
carers are the perp.

If you want the "identity of PERP data" you have to go to the chart
that gives that information specifically "identity of PERP", not this
chart that avoids naming the perp but serves your duplicitious
purposes so nicely.

IN care does NOT equate 1 to 1 that the death is caused BY the carer.

It's a locale, not a perp by title.

In Foster Care does not equate directly with by Foster Carer.

But, think on this. Parent, with out saying "in family" means the
parent was the perp, by any normal logical means of deducing the
wording of the chart.

Let's take a look at my now thrice-repeated statement with its

citations.

The rate of child fatalities due to abuse neglect in 2001 was 1.81

per
100,000.
http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cb/...five.htm#child


What it actually says, unless the page has a hidden portion only you
know of is:

"Deaths that occur while a child is under the custody or supervision
of the child welfare agency are especially egregious. Child protective
services (CPS) in 48 States reported 18 deaths that occurred in foster
care. Of these, six deaths were reported by other agencies such as the
coroner's office. Approximately 1.5 percent of child fatalities
reported by the States occurred in some type of out-of-home placement
setting."

"Egregious" just means bad or offensive, (no argument there) and does
not pertain to the numbers of, rates, or percentages. It's fluff, but
we'll indulge the author by pointing out: It's also "egregious" that
natural parents kill their children, no?

More importantly:

Notice, "1.5 percent in out of home placement." That means that
parents, relatives and others, somebody other than foster parents,
killed children how many percent of the occurances, Doug? How many? I
think that 1.5% from 100% is 98.5 ****ing Percent DOUG.

And out of home placement includes NON FOSTER CARERS.

Do you consider this of no relevance?

The rate of child fatalities due to abuse and neglect occurring in

foster
care was 3.40 per 100,000. http://tinyurl.com/n1ma


But it does NOT say the foster carers killed the children. Some did,
but not all, by far.

Actually, what the citation also says, oh duplicitious one that hopes
and prays no one will actually go look is:

Percentage of Child Fatalities that
Occurred in Foster Care
1.5
for 48 states
reporting.

Notice it says IN foster care, not by foster caregivers. This is not a
perp chart. It is a locale chart.

It isn't a chart of who killed who, this is a mortality chart...by ANY
CAUSE AT ALL...with locales named not perps.

Here is how the compilers, researchers I presume, comment on their own
data chart, from the tiny URL you listed:

"Percentage of fatalities that occurred in foster care is based on
total fatalities in States that reported on fatalities in foster care.

A "fatality" is not a murder. It can be, but it can be other causes of
death. Hospitals have boards that review hospital fatalities. There
are studies on traffic fatalities. There are charts of gun fatalities.
The presumption that each of these restricts themselves to murder only
is nonsense. They include accidents, acts of God (so called),
negligence, AND murder.

States that did not provide perpetrator relationship data are not
included in this analysis I cited above.

This table compares the number of child fatalities associated with
foster care to all child fatalities. The first column lists all of the
States and the second column lists the total number of fatalities. The
third column reports the number of child fatalities from foster care
according to CPS and the fourth reports child fatalities from other
agencies for a grand total of foster care deaths in the fifth column.
The last column gives a percentage of fatalities that occurred in
foster care as compared to the total number of fatalities. Among the
48 States reporting, the percentage of fatalities in foster care was
calculated to be 1.5 percent.
"
First sentence, "...fatalities occured in..." Not murders, not perps
and victims, just deaths in a location. It would undoubtedly include
those victims killed BY foster parents, but it is NOT exclusive to
that population.

Note that last line. " ...the percentage of fatalities in foster
care..." still doesn't make the foster CARER the perp. This is a weep
and wail chart, not useful for anything but to draw attention to the
need to do MORE generally about children at risk from all causes,
including foster care, but not exclusive of parental care failings as
well.

And finally, what's the percentage again of children who die IN foster
care? Only 1.5 of all fatalities? Right? Asshole.

98.5% percent die OUTSIDE foster care.

Let's look at the first reference for the mention of "by bio-parents"

you
insist is there.


http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cb/...five.htm#child


Okay, asshole, let's look at that page, and I'll paste a quote from
it:

"Parental Status of Perpetrators (Child File)
Most child fatalities, 82.8 percent, were maltreated by their parent
or parents (figure 5-2).4 Almost one-third (32.4%) of fatalities were
perpetrated just by their mother.5 These percentages are consistent
with the findings reported in previous years.
"

This is consistent with the chart I'm going to post for you, that I've
posted before that IS what you claim, but not what you wish....the
calculation of the estimated actual PERPS....foster and other
caregivers vs PARENTS AND THOSE IN CAHOOTS WITH THEM.

Looking down the USDHHS page referenced above, we come to the

pertinent
passage, which I quote exactly.


And watch me pick it apart along the way:

"For 2001, a national estimate of 1,300 child deaths at a rate of

1.81
children of every 100,000 children in the population died from abuse

or
neglect. Many States were able to supplement the automated data from

the
child welfare agency with statistics from other agencies in their

States.
Included in the reported 1,300 fatalities were 150 fatalities

reported from
such agencies as health departments and fatality review boards.

"Deaths that occur while a child is under the custody or supervision

of the
child welfare agency are especially egregious.


It does not say CAUSED BY THE STATE SUPERVISION, just in state
supervision. While I no more forgive the state for being so negligent
as to allow a child to die while in their care, I am aware some deaths
are simply not preventable and I cut natural parents the same slack,
but you wish to use this figure to somehow blame foster parents and or
the state for killing children. Asshole.

Child protective services
(CPS) in 48 States reported 18 deaths that occurred in foster care.

Of
these, six deaths were reported by other agencies such as the

coroner's
office. Approximately 1.5 percent of child fatalities reported by the

States
occurred in some type of out-of-home placement setting."


Notice the "some type of out-of-home placement setting?"

A setting, not a perp. Out-of-home, not exclusively foster placement.

That does NOT establish the perp. In fact, if we are going to cut it
to a truly fine point, to try to use this figures to find blame is
pointless, for either parents or foster parents.

Now crawfish and go back to "I'm just reporting the figures and
leaving the reader to draw their own conclusions" or some similar
bullhockey you like to pull on the unwary.

Kane, where in this reference is there any mention of "by

bio-parents"?

I did not cite this particular chart in our most recent exchange. I
simply pointed out the truth, this is NOT a perp identity chart and
there IS such a chart that you have run around the end of countless
time's in our debates and my challenges to you and your nonsense.

THERE it is By Bio Parent, and lists ALL THE PERPS, not the locales.

And for those that care I now offer the truth, not His
Duplicitiousness' Bull****.

The Perp Chart: (URL below)

Table 4-4: Maltreatment Fatalities by Perpetrator Relationship,
1999 DCDC

Relationship of Number of Percentage
Perpetrator to Victim Fatality Victims of Fatality Victims
Male Parent and Other 5 1.1% *
Unknown 12 2.7%
Family Relative 20 4.5% *
Other 25 5.7%
Substitute Care-
Provider(s) 27 6.1%
Male Parent Only 47 10.7% *
Female Parent-
and Other 72 16.3% *
Both Parents 94 21.3% *
Female Parent Only 139 31.5% *
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 441 100.0%

Kane: Note that of all perps only sub-care providers, which would
include some foster parents but not only FPs, such as day care, is 6.1
percent.

Notice that the percentage of fatalities by perp that are partners or
parents or relatives that I've marked with *, totals 89.2% while
the only possible categories, and that is stretching it a bit, that
could include foster parents is Unknown, Other, and Sub care providers
(the latter having to include all sub care providers NOT fosters such
as day care providers, and inpatient and outpatient mental health
treatment centers) comes to 10.8%.

The results:

Related and other with related: 89.2%
Foster and all nonrelated unaffiliated with parents: 10.2%

This was the clear indictation to me the charts you are touting as
reason to indict foster parents as murderous thugs who kill children
was not what you claimed it was. They still aren't.

You still are a liar by misdirection, manipulation, and avoidance. .

Learn to read and tell the truth at this URL from one of your
favorite sources:

http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cb/...99/table4d.htm

There is no problems with differentiation between "in" and "by"

because both
populations are defined by "in."


And that shows who murdered the child how again?

Most especially pay attention to the fact fatalities are not
exclusively killings by intent or neglect.


Unproven and you won't admit it. ALL your claims are poisoned by

that
stubborn refusal to differentiate between IN an BY.


The chart cited was not posted for such comparisions and you know

it.

The narrative cited does make a comparision. The exact breakdown in

foster
care among the 48 states reporting is provided in my second citation.
http://tinyurl.com/n1ma


And it is NOT a perp identity cite.

The citations you offer and have always offered are not only weak for
the premise you give but they are NOT even close to the issue at hand:
are children safer with foster parents or with natural parents who are
shown to be, by CPS, creating risk to the child?

Comparing foster parents to all parents (and in fact the census
figures used by the chart authors include "families" that have NO
children)

ALL children aren't put in foster care. The majority in foster care
come from parents that CPS claims would have harmed them had they been
left there, and the perp chart makes it damn clear that IS the case.

If only CPS were omnipotent as you and cronies claim it should be.

If CPS were omnipotent and prescent it would totally stop all child
fatalities, and you prey on that impossibility and pretend that CPS
needs reform in areas were it does not...in fact it needs MORE power
in some areas, precisely the ones you want stripped from CPS, to be
able to reduce child fatalities.

You want to give to the police exclusive investigative powers and
strip CPS of any power to persuade parents to reform.

Police do not reduce child fatalities any more than they reduce drug
use through The War on Drugs.

The same principles that have proven to reduce drug use apply in
improving the parenting abuse and neglect situation. Pursuasion with a
stick and carrot approach. One can't offer the carrot and its
benefits, in this instance, without using the stick to get the person
to take a bite and see just how good it can be, and good for you.

Considering that 60% or so of the families that meet with the stick,
take a bite of the carrot, and get their kids back (the service plan,
dummy, the service plan), I'd say it's working rather well, dispite
some failures.

It is CPS and CPS alone, barring changing demographics for other
reasons, that is charged with reducing child abuse, neglect and
fatalities, and given the barriers in their way, budget, assholes like
you and your cronies that lie lie lie about it, they do a tremendous
job YOU CAN'T DO AND FAILED AT, didn't you Doug? Didn't you?

You couldn't deal with the reality of the messiness. Could you?

You are a classic prissyassed overcontrolling ****up that left CPS to
"expose" by pointing to things CPS cannot deal with for many valid
acceptable reasons, and is not mandated to deal with by logic, but is
forced to by statute.

You are just another lowlife kneebreaker, but with a conman's smiling
ingratiating slyness. You make me wanta puke.

And in this instance we are discussing, the claim isn't even what

you
say it is. We aren't discussing up or down, but what The Plant's
intent it.


We most certainly were discussing up or down.


Blah blah blah. YOU and A Plant are attempting to do that to divert
from the truth. There are murderous parents out there, and there are
far fewer murderous foster parents.

It is EASY to spot a murderous foster parent, as they are under state
scrutiny specifically because they are foster parents and known and
listed with their agency.

No such oversight exists for natural parents. Hence natural parents
can and do kill more children by number and percentage. RATES tells us
near to nothing as long as they are confined to LOCUS rather than
identified PERPS. When you have a perp RATE let me know. And even then
it's not going to be of much use because generally FOSTERS can't get
away with murder and natural parents CAN. Difference in strength of
oversight. That means, as the researchers surely know as indicated in
their unwilliness to try and produce the numbers, that lots of parents
kill and aren't caught, hence are not reflected accurately in the
numbers reported.

Fern's initial statement beginning the thread was that occurances of
fatalities due to abuse and neglect had not gone down.


Who gives a ****? It's Its endless intent to discredit and lie lie lie
that I'm concerned with. A stupid manipulator, where you are only a
tiny bit smarter.

You and IT have to be called on your malicious gossip method of
"reform."

You inaccurately
challenged her assertion by stating that, since population had gone

up, the
RATE of fatalities had gone down. You called her names for that.


I call It names for many things. In this case for one more of IT's
lying bits of misconstrued bull****, just like the other crap she cuts
and pastes that are lies in themselves, like the unconstitutional
ruling that in fact isn't quoted in the article that claims it.

You and they are fit comrades.

I replied
that, in fact, the RATE of fatalities had not gone down . . . that

you were
wrong.


You may well be right AND I DON'T ****ING CARE, ASSHOLE.

The point is that your intent is to pretend that state care is more
dangerous than parental care by those identified as likely perps.

A piece of blathering crap.

I pointed that out to you and you are now crawfishing once again.

The up or down rate is damn near irrelevant for support of your
position of CPS needing reform.

Just as, and you have just failed again to support your position, on
the rate of fatalities IN foster care, as opposed to the rate of
fatalities BY foster carers.

None of the charts or statements you point to shows that, as they do
NOT list who the perp is. My chart DOES, and you are running from it.

And yours.

Your campaign to turn child welfare into a fascist exercise has

been
well documented here, by you.


How is reporting the accurate number of child fatalities due to abuse

or
neglect a "fascist exercise?"


I didn't say that and you know it. I said YOUR CAMPAIGN is a fascist
exercise, asshole.

In other words this crap of yours along with all the other nonsense
you post is a CAMPAIGN. And I said turn "child welfare into a fascist
exercise" not that what you posted on child fatalities was a fascist
exercise...though now that you mention it....r r r r

It's just one small part of your goal.

Your support of the obviously right wing fundy-christian ridden HSLDA
is a clear indication of your politics.

Most of us do NOT want a fundy christian interpretation of what is and
isn't acceptable parenting, but you championed the involvement of
HSLDA with the feds to do exactly that...start the ball rolling on
deciding by the FEDS, and of course HSLDA through their influence,
what is and isn't acceptable parenting.

And...........

Your pointing to federal control of child welfare as a solution to CPS
reform and MORE police involvement in child protection (as though they
don't do so already), and the removal of CPS in an enforcement role,
is clearly a fascist solution.

YOU want, or are too stupid to see the danger of, the Feds beginning
to define what is and isn't appropriate parenting.

YOU want, or are too stupid to see the danger of, the millions of
families that lack information and skill being either arrested, or
simply turned loose on their innocent children with NO attempts, other
than volunteering...r r r r...to help them learn to do better and
safer parenting of their children.

YOU ARE A ****ING FASCIST ASSHOLE. And a danger to children to and
families.

Are you saying that if rates of fatalities
have not gone down, as you inaccurately claimed, then child welfare

practice
is fascist?


No, asshole. I'm simply pointing out, once again, the measure of your
morals and ethics and that of The Plant and your other
co-conspiritors. You lie and manipulate.

You selectively cut and paste. You ignore things that refute your
little sick belief system.

Or are you saying that the claim that child welfare agencies
have been unsuccessful in reducing child fatalities is the same as

calling
those agencies fascist?


Are you saying that you are a lying asshole?


The bottom line is you are pushing for a police state.


LOL!


I'm not diverted. Try again.

Holding CPS agencies accountable for protecting children against
lethal child abuse


That isn't what you are doing. You are trying to make them accountable
for things they have little to NO control over. That is what you are
doing. You isolate or inflate the meaning of data to fit your agenda.
I just caught you at it again and proved it right here.

You were stupid enough to post an URL that included OTHER information
that proved you wrong.

is a call for a police state?


Yes, as you do it, yes, yes, yes. That IS what you want, isn't it?

What would you call not giving a family that ****ed up a chance to
reform? That's what you have repeatedly said you want. They must be
criminally charged and all OTHERS CUT LOOSE. Am I correct in my
summation of your beliefs in this?

Post again for us your solutions. You know, like the one where you
think all child abuse and neglect complaints should go directly to the
police for investigation and action. NO CPS involvement with families
except by voluntary seeking out by the families.

I can just see the lines winding around the block now.

Or are you willing to have the police simply do what CPS does, and
refer the families under threat of removal to learn how to better
parent? What point would that prove? It would be an exact dulicate
of what we have now, with the need for current CPS workers to go to
work for the police so evaluations by trained personnel could be
undertaken.

You don't really want the police doing psych evals, do you?

Expecting that children
placed in the care of state agencies will not be killed by their

caretakers
is pushing for a police state?


Are you bucking for Asshole of the Year?

You know I did not say that. You know what I said.

Reframing it as you do is simply more lying on your part.

I think the thrust of the discussion in this thread has been

reportage of
the number of children who die at the hands of a police state.


You don't "think." You lie, cleverly, consistently, and repeatedly.

The thrust of this discussion, as I made clear in a prior response, is
the lying you do, and The Plant does.

Look again at the deaths in FC vs by Foster Carers again.

One chart vs another, not a NON PERP ID chart against itself.

You lied back when we first discussed it and you just did again.

Go **** up a rope.


I would be willing to give it a try if such an action would bring

back any
of these children.


Liar. You, just as The Plant, love it when a child dies, no matter at
whose hands because you can blame CPS if the child was in state care,
and you can blame CPS if the child was in the care of their parents
because CPS didn't foresee and intervene adequately, all the while
screaming with and supporting others that scream that CPS intervenes
TOO much.

And you don't even properly differentiate between a death and a
murder.

****ing Blood Dancers is what you are.

But it won't. All we can collectively do is work toward
reform of the child welfare system so that increasing numbers of

children do
not perish in the future.


When has that NOT been the case?

Stating the obvious as though it's you and your little coterie's
wonderful new discovery, you big bad Crusaders you, is a crock.

Reform came with and as a part of CPS the day it came into being. It's
always underway, from within and without, by honest, hardworking
people from many disciplines. You people lie about that continually. I
sit on boards and committees that do that work and I know the truth,
and the truth is you lie.

Stop your silly pretense. You take a personal ride on the smallest or
most difficult to avoid failings of both parents and the state and you
love those failings for that ride it gives you.

You get to pretend you are a REFORMER, when you are little more than a
nagging flea biting at the ankle of society. A ****ant.

Actual reform would defeat you.

The only reform you want is the reform of MORE state, that is higher
levels of the state, the Feds, to have control because it will serve
you more.

Things will be far worse. You'll have lots more to do. Bloodsucker.

Asshole.

What I hope for, in this exchange, for those reading it (and I thank
them for their patience) is to go to that page you cite. Read it from
top to bottom. It reveals a good deal of the truth.

http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cb/...five.htm#child

It shows, for instance, the lie you assholes perpetrate when you quote
the media on all the times CPS is involved with a family that kills
their children...blaming CPS for the family killing, pretending it's a
huge problem when it is one of the small but nagging difficulties
common to beaurocracies of ALL kinds...no one has successfully
defeated it, only held it at bay :

Here's some truth:

"Fatalities by Prior Contact with CPS
Less than 10 percent (8.8%) of the families of 2001 child fatality
victims had received family preservation services in the 5 years prior
to the death of victims. Less than 1 percent (0.9%) of child fatality
victims had been returned to their families prior to their deaths.7
For 2000, those percentages were 14.9 and 2.6, respectively.
"
Think about all the familes that DID have family preservation services
that DIDN'T KILL THEIR CHILDREN, and try to pass off your nonsense
that CPS needs top to bottom reform.

Think about the success, likely way ahead of other government
agencies, of only a 10% failure rate. People in CPS, the courts, the
legislature, are working their asses off to make that success happen
and against overwhelming odds they keep doing it.

Have you ever noticed that I support some AntiCPS people in this ng
and not others? Do you understand the difference between them that I
apply to make that determination of who I support and who I don't.

It's really simple. Some lie, and some do not. Some are mistaken, but
they don't lie. They get my support even when I disagree.

Liars get my middle finger.

|
n|n

Enjoy.

or this:

"Parental Status of Perpetrators (Child File)
Most child fatalities, 82.8 percent, were maltreated by their parent
or parents (figure 5-2).4 Almost one-third (32.4%) of fatalities were
perpetrated just by their mother.5 These percentages are consistent
with the findings reported in previous years.
"

And they haven't changed much since. Read it and weep, creep.

If there were an equal number of foster families and natural families
with children, both subject to the same scrutiny and oversight of CPS,
you'd find out soon enough who endangers children the most.

And if the police state, federal and law enforcement, solution ever
comes into place fully I'll look you up and stand outside with a sign,
changed daily, to enumerate the children it's killed and the families
destroyed that could have been saved. I'll remind you of what YOU
wanted and what you got.

But it won't come to that if I have my way, and I will.

Kane