Thanks so much to you and Kate for the supportive words here. What you've
said I've also had suspicions of, but was also told that typically the
pre-teens are a bit p-a anyway and to wait it out. Biggest prob here is
she's been SPOILED ... of course, never by me!!! I wouldn't DREAM of it (LOL
.... I caused some of this problem!)

I know her personality well, but that doesn't give me answers on how to cope
with it daily. For example, she was one of those born in the year of the
Rooster (Chinese Astrology). She definitely IS a rooster! And proud of it.
And I explained that most barnyards only need ONE rooster ... the rest go
into the pot! She looked at me and replied "Duh! What do YOU know!" turned,
fluffed her feathers and strutted off!

Her dad can't do that. Which suggests to me that the p-a may not quite be
it, but she sure is good at manipulating. I wouldn't want to be one of those
little boys she's been eyeing since about 9 months.




"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...
Sorry to jump in here, and top posting too (double sin, 40 lashes with a
wet
noodle)........

As another 'survivor' of a passive aggressive, it sounds a bit to me as
though
the daughter here may be sharing some of the same tendencies........
and I'm not so sure that passive aggressive is a learned behavior anymore
than
brain-chemical depression is a learned behavior......

step back for a minute:

The refusal to "do"...... letting it sit until someone else steps in and
does
it...... and then no please or thank you, because after all, they didn't
actually ASK you to do it.......

Sounds P-A, doesn't it?

The manipulative behaviors, including the silent treatment until they get
their
way........

Sounds P-A, doesn't it?

The focus on the self-satisfaction, and ignoring everything else as an
irritation........

Sounds P-A, doesn't it?

It may be worth considering....... and it's extremely difficult to raise a
kid
who's P-A..... one of my two showed some of the same tendencies........

I've found that what seems to work best is to not let yourself get sucked
into
the manipulative behaviors....... if they don't 'do', it won't get
done.......
and when this starts impacting the things they WANT done, it starts to get
through....

Hope this helps


'Kate wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:22:15 -0600, "127.0.0.1"
A little background here ...

No, our boundaries and restrictions aren't so formal. LOL ... I "sent
him to
his room" so to speak. The physical distance is a rural area where
airline
access is more time consuming (no major hub for quick 'disruptive'
visits),
and the xmas restrictions are less phone contact for awhile while she
goes
thru these HORRID pre-teen stages. Can you guess? He's no help with any
of
it, but then he never was. I think he has a tendency to take on
'symptoms'
of whatever is around, including pre-pms!

Heh... hey, that was MY spouse!

Unhappily his behavior is not really fun to be around when you're on
the
receiving end.

I know. I remember.

I spent Thanksgiving and xmas having him expect me to wait on
him (you know, feed, entertain, etc., when those things are difficult
in my
household due to dd's behavior and disabilities I have). That was the
physical; the constant criticizing and picking are something I tell him
to
put where he sits, but at xmas he started in on dd, so that's the
reason for
the restricted calls. If he's not going to help her, get out of the
way! is
my opinion. In a week I think I heard nothing positive come out of his
mouth, certainly not supportive or nurturing. Oh well. It's pretty
typical
of his passive aggressive approach to things. Sometimes its better,
sometimes like this. When its like this, its healthy to keep him at a
distance in many ways.

He knows that if he messes up too much and pushes too far he will lose
the
little legal custody he has left. That will NOT stop his visitation or
involvement in her life. It will simply take his power to veto on
decisions
away from him. This is because he has interfered with serious issues in
the
past, including preventing her from appropriate medical care. It's for
her
safety. Passive aggressives are not fun, and can be extremely
dangerous.

Most of my questions here are to find out what y'all do (or might do)
in
certain situations with her. I do NOT recall pulling nearly as much
cr*p
when I was this age, although she was a challenge starting several
years
ago. She definitely has an "attitude" which wasn't helped by daddy and
others interfering with key issues. Some of my probs with her are
habits
she's developed from that, including the typical age-appropriate "duh!
what's a coat?" when you ask where their coat is. I've actually started
keeping a record of some of the responses I get!!! I see the humor in
some,
but I'm not able to really laugh about any of it yet.

My young'ens are 13, 15 and 24. My daughters were more apt to behave
that way... once or twice. I simply said, "Excuse me?" in a tone that
let them know that if they persisted, something they didn't like would
come from it.

My oldest attempted to defy me once. I probably scarred her for
life.... I laughed. I'd been waiting for "it" to start. It was a rite
of passage in my mind. Actually, she turned out to be a really nice
person... someone I'd have as a friend if I wasn't already her mother.

Once it's started, though, it's hard to control. One of the better ways
of making children that age realize that they are, indeed, most
fortunate to be living in a home with a mother like you is to volunteer
their time (with you if possible) helping at a shelter for women and
children or families.


This Chinese New Year, which is observed in my house, was the third
holiday
(Nov, Dec, now) that she has caused major disruption and, in effect,
made it
not happen completely. I'm beside myself. In the past, its true, I was
pressured to do the holiday anyway because "she's too young, she
doesn't
understand, she didn't mean it" ... So each time in the past the
holiday
happened, but it was discussed with her and some consequences happened
but
she sailed thru happily! This time I had it and shut down my house. No
TV,
no recreation, nothing until there is satisfactory communication about
the
problems. (I get the silent treatment too ... sullen, silent, anger ...
which I really hate.) Even the school got pulled into the manipulative
communication game, for which I ended up taking the responsibility for
until
I asked them how they liked being jerked around by a 10-year-old!
Basically,
she has little if any respect or courtesy for adults, although she's
not
openly hostile ... she's manipulative. She is totally engrossed in
self-satisfaction; everything else is an irritation, and if it doesn't
meet
her instant needs, she resists simply to resist.

It has been suggested several times in the past several years that I
need
help to come in to assist me with my daily or weekly household tasks. I
realized a few weeks ago that although that stuff takes me longer, I
can
still do it. What I can't do is wait hand and foot on a 10-year-old who
refuses to do ANYTHING. SHE needs the maid, I don't. And that's even
more
frustrating.

Ok.. this is starting to sound like more than the typical pre-teen
defiance.

I realize I'm not giving many details here. I just started rambling.
I'l try
to post issues in a separate thread for responses as I can detail them.
I
had six siblings with extended family close by and both parents in the
household; I do NOT know how to raise an only child with no extended
family
involvement! Could use some balanced, objective advice that isn't "oh,
it's
to HARD for her to remember that Thursday is trash night! You need to
remember and remind her."

It isn't hard to remember. I agree that it is extremely difficult to
raise a child with little support... and moreso when you have the other
parent creating problems of his/her own.

My concern is that something has happened to her that she is not telling
you about and she's taking it out on you and everyone else who is close
to her... the people who didn't protect her. If her friends have
changed, if her schoolwork is less satisfactory than it use to be, and
she has changed drastically for the worse at home, it's worth
investigating the possibility that someone or something hurt her. I
think you'll probably need to find neutral ground and talk to her. I
use to take the kids out to a nice dinner one-on-one. It seemed that
when I treated them a little special, gave them my exclusive time with
no distractions, they were better able to see me as a person and vice
versa. I found out a lot during those dinners.

Sorry to rant.


Nah... don't be. Meanwhile, when you begin to react to your daughter's
hijinks, stop for a second, rethink your first reaction, and see if
there is a way to stop the situation from escalating. Sometimes quiet
words work better like, "When you've calmed down, we can talk about it."
or "When you can ask nicely..." to give her a reason to control her
behavior and to take yourself out of play. Consider making a list of
privileges and how she can earn them rather than a list of chores and
punishments.

Hope some of this helps.
'Kate