wrote:

"billy f" wrote:
The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very
traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child
has to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school,
but receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or
want to go to school. However if a parent has used a more military style
of discipline at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose
parents are softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a
little humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can
find betters ways to discipline.

I agree with you. In our case when CPS took our child away their major
gripe was that we wouldn't disipline him. (we had employed attachment
parenting long before birth, of course attachment parenting includes
disipline through loving guidence and affording the child their
dignity.) So in our supervised visits it basically consisted of having
to put our two year old in "time-outs" for little things like making
moter boat noises (they said he was spitting) or wanting to open up his
own presents (they said he was throwing a fit when they took his present
away.) Or having the visits completly terminated because I would ask a
caseworker to quit snapping her chewing gum, etc. The worse part was
having him brought to visits with cuts and bruises and bitemarks,
handprints (documented) I don't even think a "last resort" is
appropraite. I believe the problem should be addressed before it begins.
Better communications. (i.e. The caregivers would complain that when
they chastised (humiliated) him by calling him naughty, he would act up
more. His favorite show? Enid Blyton's The Noddy Shop.) I really agree
with you a 'better way' can be found. It's a "continuum concept."


"Poopie Diapers" wrote in message
...
No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military
they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around
for a day. Thats discipline...

Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take
a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school.

They do that in the military and sometimes much worse.

Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a
diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline.


Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military.


In article ,
Chris wrote:

Such a shame: school humiliation
Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good
discipline


06/01/2003

By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News

A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to
wake
him up in class.

A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade
athlete who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears
despite a safety rule against wearing jewelry during workouts.

A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments
refer to themselves in writing as "losers."

A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures,
including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or
show disrespect.

Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to
reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment.

But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line
between
effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should
understand and that schools shouldn't cross.

In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider
them humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and
counselor who serves as executive director of human resources for
Garland public schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a
student, makes them feel unworthy or singles them out for negative
attention, something that makes a kid feel like, 'There's something
wrong with me.' "

Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe
most teachers like children and are well-trained in effective
discipline techniques.

Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And,
sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or
clowns
around.

Enter humiliation.

"Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a
teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' "
said Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the
Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers
can
always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child
corrected."

Separating deed, doer


The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but
still allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training
while
wearing
the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry.
But
the
girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0
"I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it
kinda
made me not want to do athletics anymore."

Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that
she
had
a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the
afternoon workout.

Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape
consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule.

"What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really
unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl
how she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this
is
that
we want to separate the deed from the doer."

Wrong focus

Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at
California State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing
students in a
way
that teaches them to hate things they should love.

Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school
psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do
push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective
discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the
consequences, Dr. Brock said.

"The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment
instead of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The
focus
should
have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to
class
on time."

The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her
seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their
homework.

While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments
in class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea
culpa on a sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock
said, "it
punishes
kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to
write
more?"

'Do things respectfully'


Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in
Denton
County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced
a tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8.

The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the
incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent
population that lacks respect for authority.

But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y.,
said effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen
with a tennis ball.

"Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the
hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has
he been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call
his parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired?

"You do things respectfully."

Corporal punishment


Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective
discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with
the legendary paddle, the "board of education."

Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation
divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it.
Texas and 22 other states allow it.

Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be
beneficial
when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot
of families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances
respect for authority.

Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar
Association, American Medical Association, National Association of
School
Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other
prominent groups are against corporal punishment.

Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New
Jersey, said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are
times when
a
teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons,
"
she
said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's
OK
to
hit other people."

Keep an eye out


So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids'
schools keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or
humiliating them? How can they tell if the school environment is
benevolent toward kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power
over students to no productive end?

Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about
their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be
sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say.

"If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years
all excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of
a
sudden
doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make
further inquiries about what's happening."


Bull****. The problem I see in raising kids these days is that people dont
want to be parents, they want to be friends to their brats and as a result
you get a generation of self endulgent wimps who care for noone but
themselves.

Discipline is nessicary and all that horrible trauma you fear so much for
the kiddies is a little thing we call growing up. Sheltering them from such
things is ultimately destructive and by pushing this agenda you and your
ilk should be ashamed of yourselves.
--
I would have gotten away with if it werent for those meddling kids!