"Doug" wrote in message ...
Kane writes:

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.

Hi, Kane!

Who wrote all of that? Certainly not me or anyone else on this forum other
than you.

Your favorite patronized Plant, Douggie. Try reading those whose asses
you pat.

Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?

As research posted to this newsgroup has reported, there are many possible
reasons for the decrease. Among them, a sizable blacklash from the 20 year
history of false allegations in this area. Citizens and mandated reporters
are discovering that the phamplets handed out by the agencies regarding
"indicators" of sexual abuse are wrong.

Well, I've read the pamphlets and discussed them with psychatrists and
psychologists that treat both offenders and victims. YOU are wrong,
nummy.

What you focus on, in your lying way, and take advantage of the
ignorant with is ignoring that line about "patters of behavior," in
the many single behaviors don't alone constitute proof of abuse, but
when they mount up......

You make me sick you ****.

You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.

I have the seats right. The pilot sits in the left seat.

I know where the pilot sits, asshole. AND THE STATE IS NOT THE PILOT,
not when they are being directed by the feds, and following federal
law to the point of having to pass sister laws in support of the
federal laws.

Stop being a wiseass. You knew exactly what I meant.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.

CPS malpractice was carried out at the agencies' direction and not anyone
elses. No one else is to blame.

CPS managed to still maintain a drop or holding the line in child
abuse and neglect and they were NOT acting soley under their own
dirctions, you ****ing liar.

How can anyone miss that they have for years been under threats by the
feds all over the US? Some have even been taken over by the courts and
I'M NOT HEARING OF GREAT FEATS OF IMPROVEMENT.

The Feds set up a carrot and concealed the stick, then waved it
around, now they are applying it....and the fix was in from the start
for CPS to fail.

Are you going to blame them for not being psysic?

the 90' marked one of he bleakest periods in the drug scene, where
everyone and their brother was setting up meth labs in their kitchen
or basement. Drug use increased hugely in those years. And children's
parents were drug users and makers.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license
for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in
front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last
three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.

That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?

CPS agencies were not under the scrutiny of state legislatures nor
accountable to the feds.

R R R R ....I just posted to the other patronized twit of yours proof
that that is not true. Hell, I went to state legislative hearings when
CPS was involved
clear back to 1980. By the nineties it was damn near a monthy affair
while they were in session.

The recent audits were a federal attempt to BEGIN
to hold the agencies accountable.

You have these assholes here well trained to ignore your lies, but I'm
not among them. You are one sick ****, Doug....a social worker that
lies about child welfare as a regular practice.

If they haven't been under scrutiny for many years please explain
these:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...lfare&as_qdr=y

This goes back to 1990....l4 ****in' years ago, asshole:

"As required in the Adoption and Safe Families Act, the Department has
developed, in consultation with the field, an initial list of results
measures that can be used to gauge State performance in ensuring child
safety and permanence. The list has been published for comment in the
Federal Register, and we are now reviewing input received from almost
two-thirds of the states, at least 12 organizations, a number of
researchers, several members of Congress, and other interested
individuals.

The Department has conducted 24 pilot tests of an outcomes-based
monitoring system and has published proposed regulations that draw
substantially on the lessons from those pilots. We currently are
reviewing public comments on the regulations and intend to publish a
final rule before the end of this year.
As a result of federal financial assistance, technical support, and
clear accountability that includes phased-in penalties, states are now
collecting and able to report much more timely and accurate data on
foster care and adoptions. Reporting on child abuse and neglect also
has improved considerably, as a result of both financial and technical
assistance. "

What do you think "consultation with the field" means? They had coffee
together once in 14 years?

I've gone to meetings with both state and feds CALLING CPS ON THE
CARPET TO EXPLAIN VARIOUS POLICY AND PRACTICE ISSUES SINCE 1990. YOU
are a liar.

Next one 8 years ago...look at the title:

"Testimony on Safety and Well-Being of Abused & Neglected Children by
Olivia A. Golden
Acting Assistant Secretary for Children and Families
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

Before the Senate Committee on Labor and Human Resources
November 20, 1996"

What do you think they are talking about and how did they get the
information, by NOT OVERSEEING CPS?

http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t961120a.html go ahead, take a look,
liar.

Let folks read a few things like the following and you and they will
see why CPS is "failing," and in many instances only by a hair's
breadth on a few of the 7 criteria...ignoring of course all the OTHER
measures, like the their holding the line as abuse and they
horrendousness of the KINDS of abuse when up...even bringing some of
it down over the years.

http://www.rand.org/publications/CF/CF123/burnam/

And here's a 1998 complaint petition in Texas....so no one is
overseeing CPS eh? This one was filed with ...guess who.....the state
****ing legislature of Texas and the governor....one of those you
claim provided no oversight for accountability.

http://www.co.travis.tx.us/petition/summary.asp

A Petition in Behalf of the
Forsaken Children of Texas to the
Governor and the 76th Legislature
Executive Summary
October 14, 1998
Judge F. Scott McCown

This petition is about investigations by the Texas Child Protective
Service of allegations of child abuse and neglect. This petition will
show that due to a lack of resources:

"CPS classifies too few calls about children as reports of abuse or
neglect.
Of those calls classified as reports, CPS assigns too few for
investigation and completes the assigned investigations too slowly.
Of those investigations completed, CPS confirms too few cases.
Of those cases confirmed, CPS removes too few victims.
This executive summary is written to tempt you to read the petition"

I can tell you, Doug, you are wearing me down. I'm getting so tired of
fielding your lies and pointing them out. I'm tired of you avoiding
the larger issues I bring up and peeling off some inconsequential
misuse of a term or a claim that misses the center of the target by an
inch, BUT IS STILL ON TARGET...just like this issue, that I could
puke.

You make me sick you lying ****.
And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and
inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by
the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.

Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

LOL! No beef?

You want me to cite all the lying **** filled destroy CPS posts on
this very newsgroup and then ALL OF YOURS showing you pat these ****s
on the head and congratulate them for posting biased media reports,
and ignoring all the good CPS does do?

Go **** yourself.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ctive-services

Here, read them all yourself, then post a single post of yours
decrying these viscious attacks and lies. Show me where you have
challenged them. I remember one or two little "oh oh bobb, your
figures are off by a bit" congratulatory bits of pap from you and
that's it.


If you have some substantial information that addresses the
issue we are discussing, I would be glad to see it. The silly name calling
suggests you lack that information.

NO, the name calling isn't silly in the least. It identifies what you
are clearly. And the disgust I hold for a professional in the field
that would lie and mislead to the injury of children and the risk of
families. **** you, asshole.

As for the "substantial information" I've used many of the same
sources YOU have during our exchanges, as well as others (see this and
other recent posts), and fought your twisted lying interpretations
again and again.

YOur claim that I'm not supply ing substantial information is AN
EXPOSURE OF YOUR LIES RIGHT IN THIS POST, AND PRIOR ONES I've replied
to you in.

As I said, you are a ****ing liar. I'm am sick to death of knowing
someone like you has an MSW and is a member.

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title
IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a
manner
they see fit.

Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.

I have. Many times.

Cite them. Should be easy to find, or don't you google? Want me to
look for them for you? ... or could it be that I have?

The others may or may not choose to respond regarding
their participation.

Baaaawwwwk, baaaaaawk baaaaawk, chicken****.

You made a claim. Now you won't back it up.

"many times" eh? Why can't I find them?

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.


Many times. I am sure the premise was made using a wide array of wording
and phrasing at different times.

R R R R............Do you know the poster I refer to as Droany? That's
a favorite style of dodge of his. It's called "weaseling."

I'm sure you are sure, but I'm sure you haven't answered my question.
Where are they, in any form? Show me.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

R R R R

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.

Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.

Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic dysfunction are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are mandated to
protect.

Propaganda. There is no world in which mistakes are not made, and
people injured. This is the infamous strawman. How could anyone
disagree with you.

Line people following ANY policy are ENMESHED in systematic
dysfunction because NO system is perfect or even much better than
stumbling along. Especially CPS with the crippling they have always
worked under.

Child abuse and neglect are ugly nasty horrible things to
witness...and the public wants it fixed without having to witness it.
They want it done fast and they want it done cheap and they don't want
to to see it or pay for it.

That attitude provides, created really, a perfect whipping boy for
politically ambitious twits (that's why I rag you so much....you
babble and rant and bull**** just like others I've seen and challenged
over the years...as a citizen).

Yah know how people are annoyed by and stereotype garbage men...?
Well, this is worse, but the same thing.

A dirty job no one wants to do but they want to criticize those that
do it and underpay them to boot.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.

I have not advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS.

You have offered, as an argument, the opinions of those who say,
dismantal and begin over with a new model?

You didn't tell me that you wanted a police function to take over all
investigation and enforcement work?

Look familiar?

"I have supported separate reform packages authored by social workers
Lela
Costin, Leroy Pelton, Duncan Lindsey, Phillip Schwartz, Howard Karger,
Richard Gelles, Susan Orr, and others. Each of these authors have
written
reform packages that call for police to assume the role of
investigating
child abuse and neglect. Dr. Pelton, in an exhaustive work in 1989;
Dr.
Lindsey in an equally lengthy book in 1993; Dr. Costin, et al in 1996,
Susan
Orr in 1998, Richard Gelles in 2000 and Dr. Swartz in 2001."

If all that is left, smartass, is CPS doing social work with volunary
clients, they will be doing nothing as all the parents will be in
jail. Do you really think the levels of abuse are going to diminish?

Children will NOT go back to their parents. You are encouraging what
will become a damn bloodbath. I don't know where you got those stats
you offerred, or opinions, that CPS work to reunite families wasn't
working, but you are full of ****. Even under that heavy load imposed
by ASFA with the states HAVING to devote money to enforcement in an
attempt to comply with federal guildelinse, the little pilot and
demonstration projects for family unity were working.

I think THAT was one of your more annoying lies.

Dredge that up again for us. I'm going to make some calls to the
researchers that came up with that crock.

Addionally asshole, and I call that while I think of about this, more
and more children will suffer more and more before their parents reach
the level the police CAN intervene, and it will be the hospital or
morgue for the children, jail for their parents........who did NOT ask
for help because bad parents and fool druggies don't ASK FOR
HELP......

What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific actions do you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I have no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.

The threat of loss of their children would qualify. Don't you think?

And that threat goes away, under what you advocate and I just posted,
UNTIL THE CHILD IS DEAD OR SO INJURED THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE.

We see enough of that already, you evil evil little man.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS
agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.

They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.

Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their families are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law and forcibly
confined in state custody.

Under color of law MEANS BY LEGAL MEANS...you little evil twit.

"forcibly confined" R R R R .... They are FORCIBLY CONFINED then with
their parents. Anyone that is their caregiver is FORCIBLY confining
them, even the day care centers and public schools. What an evil
******* you are.

More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.

Gee, what happend to "incarcerated?"

IN some states as many as 50% are with relatives, some of whom
themselves kill or injure them. Stop the ****ing lies by misleading
and misdirection.

Homes, treatment centers for their parent induced psychological
illnesses, and for some older ones, sadly, youth incarceration
centers...the ONLY ONE YOU ARE CORRECT ABOUT....but they are
ajudicated as delinquent youth.

Basically you are the same kind of mindless twit that bobb is. You
just are better educated hence better able to conceal your sickness
and bigotry.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care
funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.

Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.

You are absolutely and categorically incorrect. These children were removed
by state child protective agencies on their own initiative with the
motivation to collect federal funding.

Prove it.

If so why are ANY OF THEM RETURNED TO THEIR PARENTS. What a liar.

The federal government did NOT order
these agencies to do it.

Nope. They ordered them to respond to child abuse complaints. And the
state must do so. It's the law.

The feds set the criteria for their money. Since
that criteria provides an incentive to incarcerate poor children, they are
accountable.

More poor children are in circumstances that amount to neglect and
abuse. Nothing remarkable in that. Nor in that the feds and the states
recognize it. Claims they are targetted just because they are poor is
bull****.

But that state agencies chose to remove children to get access
to that money is appalling.

What's appalling is that you lie about it.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is
"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.

Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."

The state child protection agencies bear responsibility for their
malpractice.

No question about it. Now show "malpractice" in relation to law and
standard child welfare practice. You may find such information in law
books and in the texts of well known schools of social work.

The Nazi defense, "I was ordered to do it" won't work for
personnel of these agencies.

And that is not the defense, but that is not a valid claim. Those that
break the law are NOT allowed to use it validly. You have seen reports
in this ng of such going to jail, losing jobs, being demoted and other
penalties.

And the agencies are NOT breaking any laws, and you know it. Not
state, not federal. So who is going to be on this world court to try
CPS personnel for their gestapo like behavior, eh?

You and your cronies are so full of ****.

This hyperbolic ranting is right out of the overheated steamy rhetoric
of the websites and pronouncement of little crazy ass anti CPS anti
Government nutsos I can't believe and educated man would fall for that
****...though I've seen ego empaired crackpost with good educations go
down to it before.

The workers within these agencies are
accountable for their own actions.

As I said, you run this crap constantly. I know they are. I've been a
party to them having to be accountable...and they were. Some fired,
some demoted, some fired and barred for state employment for life. So
don't give me that bull****.

They ARE NOT resonsible for the machinations of the Feds or the State.

If so, and you are telling the truth, then YOU ARE HEADED FOR A FALL.
You work for the state, do you not?

Guilt by association. I should have expected that from you.


You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have
for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many
years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care
system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be
used
for purposes other than foster care.

And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.

If he dances to the tune in violation of his ethics and moral convictions,
just to get at the money, he alone must face the music.

You, skuzzball, are talking about the public. Who do you think I was
referring to?

He is responsible.

Yes, the public is. So YOU want the public to hang the workers they
paid and directed by the laws passed. What a lowlife you are.

It is simply inhumane to remove children from their parents, inflicting
tremendous emotional damage, for a buck.

That is not why they are removed. That's the big lie tactic, and you
make yourself known as a liar by spouting it. Nearly everyone believes
it...nearly that is, unless they have held CPS under the kind of
careful scrutiny I have for many years.

This may not be the best way to run CPS but it is the way that
evolved. The ONLY way the feds offerred to fund child protection.

Now you want the feds to fix it? R R R R ....and you think they'll do
better this time around. The states should be suing the feds for
misrepresentation and taking back those billions in tax dollars.
That's the only way it can happen ethically. MORE of CAPTA followed by
ASFA followed now by Plan C, is not going to fix it and if you had a
****ing brain in your stupid little pointy head you'd know it.

Did you manage to take even ONE quarter of policital sciense? Get your
text out, dust it off and study.

The feds are responsible to
providing the temptation,

"TEMPTATION?" For **** sakes man, it was A THREAT...IT WAS THE GUN TO
THE HEAD. If you want this money you WILL dance to our tune was what
it was. I sat through hour after hour of conferences where, in
essence, that WAS the bottom line when the states were asking for MORE
support for reunification and upfront family support money.

YOU ****ING LIAR. Or weren't you around for those times?

but the state workers are solely responsible for
yeilding to the temptation by irreparably injuring the very children they
were mandated to protect.

If that was what they were doing in numbers that reflected anything
more than the expected statistical human error in systems I'd agree
with you. But I know it's not so.

The children coming into the system ARE NOT universally or even in the
majority, unharmed by parents. Many that return home are injured for
life by PARENTS, but the state has to return them because of legal and
policy limitations.

For the damage they have done to children, the
agencies are fully responsible.

Yep, you just lie about the numbers. And lots of suckers here eat it
up.


NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.

Thugs are thugs, whoever pays them. In this thread, we have been talking
about holding the current thugs accountable for the damage they have already
done to children. You argue that we should worry about different thugs paid
by the feds without considering the damage already done by the state thugs.

No such argument has been made by me. I'm perfectly willing to have
ANY AND ALL thugs worried about and stopped. The problem is that you
are lying.

It's the old "three times and eight time more likely" crappola. You
are comparing populations with extremely different variables and
making claims that are not supportable.

And everybody wants a ride. The political ambition slavering hyenas
are running rampant....you aren't winning on truth, you are winning on
lies because of the stupidity, ignorance, and cupidity of such as
those.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.

The state child protection agencies currently pay thousands of local
vendors -- therapists, consultants, advisors, GAL's, group home operators,
caseworkers, parenting teachers, counselors, lawyers,

As required by law. By the feds in fact. And when one sees what
children have suffered that come into the system, it's no surprise
these are needed.

assorted species of
jacklegs, partridges and the pear trees in which they roost.

Same old ****, Douggie the Magnificent.

Personally if there are going to be vendors, and there will always be
considering the damage to children from their parental units, I want
them controlled locally.........not remotely by the feds using their
asskissing thugs in suits.

Have a wonderful day, sir! You are an adult, so you can be relatively
confident that you can spend it at home with those you love.

If I were a child and my parents were abusing and neglecting me would
YOU show up at my door in time, to get me out, give me some medical
and psychological therapy, get my parents squared away so I could come
home one day, or would you wait for it to get serious enough the cops
had to be called.....when I was badly injured and disabled for life or
dead?

You are creep.


Doug

Kane