On Sat, 22 May 2004 07:01:19 -0400, "Doug" wrote:

Kane writes:

How can anyone miss that they have for years been under threats by
the
feds all over the US? Some have even been taken over by the courts
and
I'M NOT HEARING OF GREAT FEATS OF IMPROVEMENT.

Hi, Kane!

Yes, increasingly, federal courts are taking over foster care systems
throughout the country because of the agency's consistent refusal to
consider reforming on their own.

Unable to "reform" on their own and do what they do not have the
funding to do.

The results have been mixed.

R R R R....to say the least.

The Feds set up a carrot and concealed the stick, then waved it
around, now they are applying it....and the fix was in from the
start
for CPS to fail.

What sort of fix?

To fail. I've stated this repeatedly. Do you ever stop playing games?

What was the carrot?

Money to get children out of the cycle of custody and return. Are you
stupid?

What is the stick?

Concealed. That the feds would NOT stick to the law as it read. There
was, for instance, NOTHING in the law that said the states had to
recruit relatives...only that they make the effort...and it did NOT
say how much effort.

the 90' marked one of he bleakest periods in the drug scene, where
everyone and their brother was setting up meth labs in their
kitchen
or basement. Drug use increased hugely in those years. And
children's
parents were drug users and makers.

Perhaps one of the problems during that period was that state workers
may
have actually assumed that "everybody and their brother" was
manufactoring
methamphetamine.

No such thing. They had two things telling them the truth about it.
The LE stats, and the sorry experience of having childen handed to
them from the arms of hazmat clothed technicians that just had to do a
decontamination on the child's body.

http://www.ag.state.az.us/DEC/HowEndangesChildren.html

Such a generalization and contempt prior to investigation

Yer lying yet again. They had first hand experience. Who would other
than them? I personally watched the wave of this drug and it's effects
hit and kill with my first witnessed death from meth in 1968.

Man in a tent in Southern Oregon where I had gone to do a survey. He
was bleeding from every body opening. Young, had everything going for
him. Very sad.

Died before the EMT's arrived.

And that was the beginning. Five times I've had homes very near my own
residences (and my neighborhoods tended to be upscale) declared
uninhabitable because of meth manufacturing. That is way to many for
coincidence. This is a major problem.

could have made it very tough for the children of everyone and their
brother.

Not as tough as meth and its manufacture has been.

http://www.mapinc.org/ccnews/v04/n627/a04.html?201

I don't recommend the following, except usually to those tempted to
use...so go with caution:

http://www.crystalrecovery.com/index.html

Yah know, Doug, sometimes I'm kinda rough on you with the name
calling, but I haven't thought up one to match the moral degeneracy
this recent claim of yours amounts to.

This scourge is and has been sweeping this country for decades, to the
point it's such old news the media hardly mentions it anymore in any
significant way. Haven't read any real good and helpful stories on it
for some time now. .. but this, as low rated as this rag probably is,
circulation wise, well have to do for now.

http://www.stateline.org/stateline/?...Info&id=323046

So I guess I'm stuck, despite you, a claimed social worker that has to
know better, with calling you the usual. You are a ****ing scum
sucking liar you freekin' sick ****.

If anything has taken children from families more than meth I'd like
to know what it could be. And the problem is growing.

To minimize this problem proves to me just how dispicable you
are....just to take another undeserved swipe at CPS and child
protective workers. How sick can you get?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ve+for+%2Bmeth

And considering this isn't just a meth problem as children present to
CPS and "meth" isn't the issue really to be considered...just one more
symptom of parental abuse and neglect......

http://www.futureofchildren.org/usr_doc/vol6no2ART8.pdf

The Department has conducted 24 pilot tests of an outcomes-based
monitoring system and has published proposed regulations that draw
substantially on the lessons from those pilots. We currently are
reviewing public comments on the regulations and intend to publish
a
final rule before the end of this year.
As a result of federal financial assistance, technical support, and
clear accountability that includes phased-in penalties, states are
now
collecting and able to report much more timely and accurate data on
foster care and adoptions. Reporting on child abuse and neglect
also
has improved considerably, as a result of both financial and
technical
assistance. "

What do you think "consultation with the field" means? They had
coffee
together once in 14 years?

What you cut and pasted is a discussion about how the feds sought out
state
input in designing the criteria for the audits that were conducted
the past
three years. It took that long from theory to practice. The
process, as
your cut and paste explains, was to go to the states for input and
then
print proposed quidelines in the Federal Register. States further
commented
on the published criteria, and the feds then went back to draft
revisions,
which were again published in the Federal Register.

Yep. And anyone that has ever worked with the feds little minions
knows how they complicate and reinterpret things. The fix was in years
ago. The states were set up to fail and the mechanism where carefully
wired into place by the methods you just commented on.

Let folks read a few things like the following and you and they
will
see why CPS is "failing," and in many instances only by a hair's
breadth on a few of the 7 criteria...ignoring of course all the
OTHER
measures, like the their holding the line as abuse and they
horrendousness of the KINDS of abuse when up...even bringing some
of
it down over the years.

Responding to abuse reports and keeping children safe is among the
components in one of the 7 groupings of criteria.

Yep. And can you tell us how badly they missed the mark?

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

LOL! No beef?

You want me to cite all the lying **** filled destroy CPS posts on
this very newsgroup and then ALL OF YOURS showing you pat these
****s
on the head and congratulate them for posting biased media reports,
and ignoring all the good CPS does do?

Go **** yourself.

A biophysical impossibility, I am told.

Not in your case. You manage yourself while doing a few others here.

Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic
dysfunction are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are
mandated to
protect.

Propaganda. There is no world in which mistakes are not made, and
people injured. This is the infamous strawman. How could anyone
disagree with you.

Line people following ANY policy are ENMESHED in systematic
dysfunction because NO system is perfect or even much better than
stumbling along. Especially CPS with the crippling they have always
worked under.

A dysfunctional system is in far worse shape than simply being
imperfect.

Hair splitting. Use of the word "dysfunction" without a measure being
set allows for near misses to be judged as equal to total misses.

Child abuse and neglect are ugly nasty horrible things to
witness...and the public wants it fixed without having to witness
it.
They want it done fast and they want it done cheap and they don't
want
to to see it or pay for it.

I disagree. The public is paying billions for it.

Inflation makes the term "billions" no longer the impactful emotion
laden claim it used to be. The size of the problem is immense.

Citizens have a right to
expect their employees to do their jobs in a way that does not injure
children. At the very least, they should, "at first, do no harm."

Yep. They sure do. And yes, they sure shouldn't. Your claims of both
being failures are highly exaggerated as you 3 time and 8 time as many
comparision against an unsupervised demographic. Nonsense as usual.

And I want and expect my police departments to "at first, do no harm"
but I recognize they will never be perfect, nor will they even
approach it...and it is becoming increasingly obvious that even when
they do exactly as they are ordered to do, and they are NOT breaking
the law, they still get the same kind of criticism....they are damned
if they do......(they are labled overzealous) ...and damned if the
don't (they are accused of sitting around eating donuts and drinking
coffee on the job).

Same crap comes down about CPS workers. And it's no more valid.

A few cases are held up and the pretense is that this is typical of
CPS workers.

You and yours are liars Doug, and would NEVER allow anyone to hold you
to the same standards. Tell us you never make mistakes. Go ahead. I
want to see just how big a lie you can tell.

Lela
Costin, Leroy Pelton, Duncan Lindsey, Phillip Schwartz, Howard
Karger,
Richard Gelles, Susan Orr, and others. Each of these authors have
written
reform packages that call for police to assume the role of
investigating
child abuse and neglect. Dr. Pelton, in an exhaustive work in
1989;
Dr.
Lindsey in an equally lengthy book in 1993; Dr. Costin, et al in
1996,
Susan
Orr in 1998, Richard Gelles in 2000 and Dr. Swartz in 2001."

If all that is left, smartass, is CPS doing social work with
volunary
clients, they will be doing nothing as all the parents will be in
jail. Do you really think the levels of abuse are going to
diminish?

There are other tasks left to do after police do investigation...like
social
work.

Not in your world, Douggie. Remember. You voted for (in coversations
with me right here) for there to be NO intervention unless there was a
criminal investigation with all the limits inherent in that.

And I haven't seen you get after the little suck butts here for
claiming that cops have no business stopping someone and asking what
is going on.

When you get your act together with this crew of sickos you've
cultivated you might be a bit more credible.

So clean up your act, scumsucker.

What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific
actions do
you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I
have
no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.

The threat of loss of their children would qualify. Don't you
think?

And that threat goes away, under what you advocate and I just
posted,
UNTIL THE CHILD IS DEAD OR SO INJURED THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE.

The trouble is that when the state threatens parents with removal of
their
children, it becomes necessary to use the "hammer" and remove
children when
parents don't jump through hoops in the right way.

That does NOT answer my claim or charge. That is yet another excuse to
propagandize. YOU are still advocating a way of performing that will
doom many children to more severe injury and death.

For instance, one of the first things to go away will be involuntary
testing of babies and mothers for drugs and mandatory reporting to
CPS...well, in your world, the Police.

NO warrant...not call. And the police can't ask without probable
cause. Where are they going to get it?

Schools will not be able to report suspicion of abuse and neglect
until a child is dire straights and near death..not just by condition,
but by emergency room standards...with maybe minutes to spare.

Children will die.

This is precisely what
leads to an overcrowded and abusive foster care system.

Crock o' **** only your hangers on here believe.

Children should not
be removed from their homes -- or threatened to be removed -- to
force
parents to accept a government "service" (sanction).

Nope. You are right. Just leave the child there until they service is
no longer needed. Dead children lose their parents the hard way.
Severyly injured get to live the rest of their lives with the
attendant disability. And visit their parents in jail, maybe.

Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their
families
are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law
and
forcibly
confined in state custody.

Under color of law MEANS BY LEGAL MEANS...you little evil twit.

Precisely.

Yep, you and I agree then: you are an evil little twit.

"forcibly confined" R R R R .... They are FORCIBLY CONFINED then
with
their parents. Anyone that is their caregiver is FORCIBLY confining
them, even the day care centers and public schools. What an evil
******* you are.

Incorrect. Children generally want to live in their homes with their
parents and their siblings. Have you ever asked them?

Not only have I I have so stated more than once in this ng. You are
using the commonly known, to workers and mental health professionals,
phenomena of the victim's attachment to the tormentor, coupled with
the inevitable fear of loss of the familiar, and the fact that each of
us gets' on one of each parent...and we do not want to lose them, to
pretend that CPS is doing a child disservice to remove them from
possibly dangerous circumstances for an investigation.

You are proposing the child can know and assess the relative safety of
their circumstances. You are sick.

More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.

Gee, what happend to "incarcerated?"

IN some states as many as 50% are with relatives, some of whom
themselves kill or injure them. Stop the ****ing lies by misleading
and misdirection.

The average is 24% nationwide. What states have 50%?

Callifornia. The Plant posted it here in an article and I've varified
it in two sources.

Basically you are the same kind of mindless twit that bobb is. You
just are better educated hence better able to conceal your sickness
and bigotry.

bobb is not a "mindless twit." To the contrary, he is a thoughtful
member
of this group who makes it a habit to write posts that encourage us
to think
about the issues. He does disagree with you on occassion, which is
why you
call him names.

I call him names because he is a fear mongering bigot, a mysoginist,
and misanthrope, an anti mental health twit, and a science hating
fool.

And he lies about CPS, as well as perpetuating his ignorance. That he
means well is not a question...and I consider well meaning fools among
the most dangerous.

Give me a true knowledgable evil person everytime to combat, as they
can be stopped. The idiot and ignorant are very very dangerous because
they do not KNOW how evil they are being.

You cultivate his biases and fears like the truly dispicable thug you
are. He's your dupe, just as The Plant.

Nonetheless, you have a great day, sir!

Nonetheless, enjoy your pretentious posturing.

Doug

Kane