On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:01:04 -0500, "bobb"
wrote:

I've repeated articles that point out the large segment of mexicans
who have
no interest in becoming citizens,

Point me to them again. I'm unable to find them.

nor do they hold to american values.

How can a mexican not hold to American values. They ARE American by
birth, ancestory (probably waaaay before your folks), and through out
some parts of the North American United States, their culture is so
dominant that people like you and I have been assimilated by it
generations ago. Californians each and speak "Mexican" without even
knowing they do something "different."

So, tell me, bobb, what are these "american values" we have, you and
I, or just you and what you think other "americans" like you have,
that these "foreigners," "messicans" don't have, and what values do
you think they DO have?

There
intent is to regain propertly lost in war.

Now that would be interesting.

Obviously, the muslims and islamics hav an agenda to destroy
american.

No, "Islamists" do. And they are NOT popular with run of mill muslims,
just like right wing racist white power folks that call themselves
"Christian" as part of their name are abhored by run of the mill
Christians.

Neither group of moderate folks though can speak out much from the
position of their faith against others that us their name badly.

Yet I DO read articles, by those of faith, from both camps that attack
these two brands of dangerous extremist...so basically bobb, you are,
as usual, full of ****.

In places where extremists hold sway they are often heavily armed and
intimidate the moderates, who would speak up at the risk of their own
and their relatives lives...yet a few still do so, and suffer for it.

Instead of supporting and encouraging these people that can and would
fight Islamists from within, you and assholes like you, lump them all
together and alienate the moderates. How would YOU like to be seen as
a White Supremist "Christian?" Basically that is what you do when you
claim "muslims" and "islamics" are out to destroy us.

We can, and should control imigration for those to intend to do us
harm.

Yep, and we do. What do you think the HSA is all about, dummy? And
it's working. Even Moussaoui is going to be retried...and we'll hang
the sucker if we can get our hands on him...(thanks germany for all
you "help.")

The blacks, on the other hand, are american citizens... and we have
to allow
them the freedoms of all citizens.

I love it. "we" have to allow "them." If you don't see the racism
inherent in that kind of thinking you are lost to humanity, bobb.

There is no "we" or "them." This is a country of "US" and always has
been even when they were in the cotton rows, and on the docks, and my
ancestors were sippin' mint juleps idly chatting about how to deal
with the "problem" of the darkies and how to keep them from uprisin'
and cuttin' all our throats, and have you seen the pretty little nigra
I bought las' week in Charlston..my my."

Hell, one of the first people to die in the events that set off our
Revolution was Chrispus Attucks...a free black man in a protest
against british soldiers. I think it was Boston.

http://www.seacoastnh.com/blackhistory/patriots.html

So much for "we" and "them" and "letting."

How would you like it, them being Americans all this time, even before
the revolution, if a black man pondered, "I think we must allowed
whites the freedoms of all citizens."

It;s not difficult to see that blacks are having a difficult time
assimiating... even after many gnerations.. and government
opportunituis.

It's that darky thing. You know, that african stuff, the jungle
mentality. Drums and gobbeldigook languages They may be hundreds of
years more getting rid of being African, just like you and I have
gotten over being white and mostly german/english (by the way, did you
know that german was spoken in the colonies more than english in our
early days?).. "english" speakers were NOT speaking the common
language of the times. They were a minority in most of the colonies.
How's THAT grab your silly ass?

Blacks make up the largest segment of the jail population for serious
crimes, including crimes against blacks.

Yup. They are arrested more than whites for the same crimes. I've
lived the hood, and I've lived in the white trash sections of towns.
More cops in the hood than the white trash sectios.

Judges go heavier on blacks in court, as do juries. It's a proven
fact. It is the shame of the judicial, and of law enforcement.

They also make up the largest
segment of children in foster care.

Yep. Nothing like grinding a people down like we whites have done to
blacks for 3 or 4 hundred years. I'm continually amazed at their
persistence and fortitude in holding on to THEIR place in America.

This is to say nothing about their huge
failure in schools.

And nothing about the huge failure of the schools to serve them as
well as whites. Ever been to a school in the hood? Probably not. The
palpable "blackness" would no doubt overwhelm you.

I always, when I go to events in the schools in black communities, am
overwhelmed by it myself, for a time, then my life experience and the
memory of the people I spent my time growing up with, until I was
about 10 or 11, comes back to me, and I go "black" in my sensibilities
and feel warm and welcome and like a decent human being that can
forget the vicious indoctrination I've recieved as a white.

I'm always amazed that a black person, given the history of whites,
can embrace me so warmly with such welcome.

The food's damn good too....R R R R. Had your plate of Ribs today?

Personally if I had to identify "american" values that I consider the
ost important, it would be what I find in the real black
community...not what the 10 o'clock news is feeding you suckers, and
has now for 60 years.

The idea of adopting or promoting ebonics is, to me,
merely another demonstration of their unwillingness to join America
and the
list goes on.

Ebon is as much a dialect of american language as Cajun. Do you think
the people in the Bayou country are folks we just have to give their
rights to, or was there never a question that they were americans. Do
you consider aboriginals of this continent who speak their language as
not fully americans except for what we whites grant them?

And by the way. Do you find yourself subjected to Ebon in everyday
exchanges you have with blacks? Are you forced to learn spanish? Are
you kept out of mainstream america because you speak a *******
conglomorate dialect of true English english?

The time is past when they could have assimilated in the way I think
you mean...speaking and acting like you or I. I believe there were
three key times that we whites denied them entry.

Immediately after emancipation, again right after WWII, and finally as
a result of the twinned shocks to them of the civil rights movement
and Vietnam.

I think, though not being black I have to guess at and interpret what
blacks might be thinking, that each was a shock to them, mounting in
impact, and the civil rights movement backlash and resistance of
whites, and the black vets coming back from Vietnam to the same old
thing did it.

I've been holding my breath since about the mid 1960's when it first
occurred to me that blacks were repeatedly denied entre' at these key
events in US history.

You have to understand that events that you and I, from the white
controlled media, were either denied access to or it was brushed over
(like the murder of us black navy men by forcing them to unload
ammunition ships with known safety risks, unstabled munitions, faaar
beyond what white sailors were subjected to....never heard of it, did
you?) are NOT hidden to the black community.

You know that "jungle telegraph" thing that makes whitie's hair stand
on end when the drums start signaling. R R R R

I must admit I'm also concerned that so many adhere to
muslim/islamic faith

In the denial of an "american" identity...which you and people like
you have done to blacks, and others in this country...(you ****ing
white supremist) you leave blacks to forge their identity as a
community to OTHERS THAT WOULD PREEMPT THEM.

BLACKS didn't go rushing out to choose to be muslims...they were left
too few choices and the only one they really wanted....or so thinks
this whitey.

They were pushed out...and when one is pushed out they can simply die,
or go elsewhere. Some blacks went elsewhere to be their own kind of
Americans...which of course they already were. Did your people, bobb,
preceed Chrispus Attucks? .

Have you been called a ****** lately...along with all the exclusion
that goes with that, for your parents and their parents, and for your
sons and daughters?

I'm not suggesting all blacks fit into my dire picture for certainly
there
is a lot more racial strife within the black commuity than most of
hear
about.

Bobb, that is that same ol' "some of my best friends" ****. It don't
wash.

Where ELSE would you expect racial strife to be? You want it in the
white `hood?

Look, bobb, as I said you are a victim, along with the rest of white
america, me included, of constant unrelenting media bombardment. If
two groups of white kids got into a fracus in a school yard, would you
suspect "race" was a factor? If you here a TV news program that says
two groups of black kids got into it in the school yard, do you NOT
suspect they had a fracus over racial issues..........and does not the
media play that up if just one interviewed kid says that was it?

bobb, you'll swallow anthing, uncritically, when it fits your bias,
you well indoctrinated bias. For **** sakes man, read something about
the nature of prejudice and how naturally it comes to us (an old
survival skill...bred into us by evolution) and how ridiculously easy
it is to use it to influence us any way "the man" wants to.

Read up on the politics, what there was, of the middle ages when we
all were either serfs, soldiers, or lords of the manor, and the lords
of the manner kept it that way to their benefit. They were nothing
more than brigands and cutthroats that got organized when they had
stolen enough of everyone elses labors.

Racial may not be the correct term (lighter skinned blacks reject
those of a darker color) because it runs much deeper than that.

Do you read anything but propaganda by whites? Do you understand, even
minutely, what slavery did to the black psyche? Do YOU see any class
difference between those who live in the middle of inhereted wealth
from six ot 10 generations of wealth, and you and I, presuming you
come from the working class?

What is the difference between you and I identifying the
characteristics of the wealthy, (they do breed with the most beautiful
women, hence they become better looking over time...take Paris Hilton
for instance) while us poor folks just hookup pretty much with how
ever will have us from our on class.

Where is that difference when it comes to, if you'll pardon the
expression, field hands and house ******s? And I presume you can
figure out why the house staff was lighter, over a few generations,
that those sweaty less attractive field hands, right?

THE CLASS DIFFERENCE YOU WANT SO BADLY TO BELIEVE IS RACISIM AMONG
BLACKS IS NOTHING MORE THAN THE WHITE "RACISM" OF OUR CLASSISM WITH
OTHER WHITES.

Learn how to think. Learn history. Think of history having much more
meaning to NOW, than your stupid ass public school teachers
(themselves even MORE indoctrinated that you) gave to you with boring
dates, and history devoid of what people of color actually did and
didn't do. The surprize here is that Attucks is a symbol...he was NOT
the only black in the revolution, nor the only black that contributed,
and still contributes to this country and its wealth and power.

Though many
feel existing social problems are a black/white issue they are an
undeniably a black/black issue...

Undeniably? Well, I DENY IT. The black/black issue is no more than the
white white issue...it's a matter of class. Middle class and
professional, vs working class, vs deeply poverty stricken....exactly
what it is for WHITE classes.

You are being given a lesson in what is meant by "institutional
racism." It's not "no we already rented to apartment." That is
personal racism.

This business of US you and I, and minorities being managed to the
advantage of a very small elite is institutional racism and you are as
much a victim as any black person, but it costs you in ways you can't
even imagine.

The wealth of this country, if we were NOT pitched against each other,
would be something to behold far beyond what we see now. We would all
be princes in our control of our destinies and of our wealth and
power.

Right now, should the power elite decide it would be good for them and
their wealth managment, and the aquisition of more goods and resource,
that we have a deep recession, or even outright depression...there is
nothing we could do to stop it....or them. They control those kinds of
things now and virtually everything that happens in the world is
planned for by their bean counters and administrators.

It's a game of "how much can we squeeze out of "them" before they
break and we have them coming for us with the long knives so we get
maximum power and wealth flowing more strongly towards us." The robber
barons of the 19th century were pikers compared to these boys.

a side we rarely hear about because it
isn't politically correct to discuss.

WHAT? I've been hearing this crap for decades, about light skinned
blacks and dark skinned blacks, and it's a white power ploy to keep
blacks divided.

Whites cannot help blacks out of
their delima... blacks need to do it for themselves and quit yelling
racism.

Let me give you the word. I don't remember exactly, but I can
paraphrase for you. This is what the blacks of the 70's said to the
white bleeding heart liberals...who got to go home after the marches,
instead of being hauled out and hanged and burned......

"If you'll just step back, whitey, and get the **** out the way, we'll
do it ourselves."

The problem isn't that we are expected to do it for them. The problem
is that we keep getting in their way. WE OWN THIS ****ING COUNTRY, and
they don't, except for a tiny toehold growing out of the realization
by blacks that they have got to create their own infrastructure. Are
they in ageement...**** NO, they are human, and just like whites,
contrary and difficult. You best hope they never completely unify into
a solid block of people of a single mind.

You many rant about ebonics but it has no useful purpose.

To you, whitey. To you. It is as much of their identity, for some, as
Cajun is to folks in Louisiana. Or boots and a cowboy had to many
westerners in cattle country. Or that warm up jacket half the men in
town wear to support their kids football teams.

Here it is again, plain. YOU are NOT willing for them to have a white
identity, but you deny them their black identity as being of "no
useful purpose."

Does YOUR cultural accutorments have any "useful purpose?" If so
please explain with of your cultural characteristics does, how and
why.

I happen to, from early childhood, dressed like an english country
gentleman. No one did it deliberately. It was just how my family
dressed. I also lived in the west in cattle country and was in a
ranching and farming family....so there are couple cultural images I
project by my dress and manner in public.

I would have a terrible time changing the. If I run out of cleaned
slacks of a certain color at the same time I run out of laundered
shirts of a certain fabric and color and have to were a mix that does
NOT fit the image of ME for all these years, I damn near itch out of
my skin.

Even my hairstyle is part of that. I tend toward a military cut, and I
were rep ties formally. That is a cultural identiy mark.

My "do" and my "dashiki" are damned important to how I feel about who
I am.

This is a
different moment in time.

Different than WHAT?

I really tire of hearing how we much try to
understand the blacks, the muslim, the mexicans, etc.

Of course you do, because you haven't really made the effort, or
accepted that you will have just believe them as they are, without
question and suspicion. ...and both are too hard for you.

You are too lazy and afraid to learn, to ask and listen and accept the
obvious truth they tell you, or would. And you are too afraid to let
go of your lifetime of bias indoctrination and just trust that a man
with thicker lips, a broader nose, darker skin, looks out on the world
and sees exactly what you do, and thinks and feels, in the same
circumstances, exactly what you do.

How about if they try
to undertand the majority and the values this country was built on...
moral
and religious.

Oh brother. You really ARE a jive honkey.

What the **** do you think they have done from even before
emancipation? Ever been in a black christian church. It's ain't all a
singing and prayin' and a swayin. The sermons of black ministers would
make Jimmy Swaggart blush for HIS sinning.

They hold moral behavior above all else. My neighbor's daugher from
two blocks down, when I was in the city, lost control of her car on
the snow and plowed into my car, a volvo....now that's expensive. I
got and estimate. He showed up at my door within 10 minutes of my
calling him with the number, with a check for the amount in full. She
was not at fault. He simply was a moral man who HELD MORAL VALUES FAR
GREATER THAN YOURS, ASSHOLE.

I was his NEIGHBOR, and my color didn't matter to him. Oh, did I
forget to mention he was a black working class dude? Railroad yardman
I think, retired.

I'm going to make a wild guess, based on the thousands of black people
I've known, from down and dirty madmen and women, to highpaid
corporate heads. (Look up Bechtel sometime and I'll tell you the name
of the black man that headed it for a time......they BUILT Iraq, and
Saudi Arabia, and major Aisan shipping port infrastructure and more
around the world over the past 40 years).

YOU have been had by "the man."

And many seem to know it but you.

As for your:

How about if they try
to undertand the majority and the values this country was built on...
moral
and religious.

They did, for a hundred and more years. And what did they get? The
same racist bull****, the same barriers cleverly crafted and lovingly
maintained, INSTITUTIONAL RACISM, that keeps YOU babbling the **** you
do.

The morals they believed in, taught their children, took a hell of a
beating when three little black girls were blown up in their church,
THEIR CHRISTIAN CHURCH, YOU VILE LITTLE MAN, by white racists.

White racists JUST LIKE YOU.

Yes, JUST...........LIKE..............YOU.

That were ignorant crackers that believed the superfical differences
of skin, hair, and shapes, signified blacks were less than whites.

After a presentation I gave many years ago...about 1990 to a mixed
group of folks (and it was not primarily on race) that required me to
mention, just in passing,,,maybe five or six minutes out of three
hours, how black children responded to care by white foster parents,
and white adoptive families, and what those children might need for
connection to their identity, two young black women stayed over to
talk with me.

Both graduate students.

One, very boldly asked me how I knew those things...things I didn't
even think about as being special knowledge...and we got into
something of a deep conversation. She informed me that she was a
"racist" by your thinking, because she saw a need to continue her
studies, get her doctorate, and take up a very special
practice....only with blacks.

The counselling and rehabilitation of black people, in the aftermath,
some 100 years plus later, of slavery. She wanted to treat the damage
she was convinced had happened and still existed from generation to
generation.

I was just a little stunned. R R R

She wanted to know what this old white dude thought about that, and if
I thought she was on the right track.

What the **** could I say about that?

That kind of insight into one's self is rare. I spectulated just how
much black thinkers, like this young one, had pondered this and how
introspective they were. I think, generally, more than you and I could
imagine, or fathom.

I don't know if that is healthy or not, or if it is useful or not, but
I sure would not want to stand in her way. For all I know she was
jivin' me, but I don't think so.

And I asked her how she came to see this pathology as still existing.
From her "own black teachers" she answered. Somethin's UP whitey.
Somethin's up, and from what I see in the hood, I'd say she may be out
there workin' away, howin' her row of cotton, so to speak.

The moral of this story? How much longer, after slavery, are black
people going to have think about this special status you give them?
That they are negatively different than whites, when to anyone with
half a brain and a bit more honesty than you have can see THERE IS NO
REAL ****IN' DIFFERENCE, HONKIE!?

Race is YOUR problem. Not a black problem. When YOU stop this stupid
**** you are running out here "the race problem" will be no more.
Because YOU stopped being a bigoted racist.

Do you really thing blacks invented racism in the US?

The problem then, as I've pointed out to you, and I think you
admitted, is bigotry. Race is just an issue to be bigotted about.

Just to cheer you up. I went out for International Tai Chi day today.
About 300 of us met on a college campus, while all around the world,
others like us, all colors, bubbah, did our "forms" together.

Then I goofed the day away running errands in town, and at six pm
attend a surprize 60th b'day party at a popular neighborhood sports
bar for my wife's cousin. Happens, though my wife and her cousin are
german by ancestry, she marred a Japanese man, and raised four kids, 2
boys and 2 girls. Neither she or her husband are very good
looking...kind of ugly in fact, but the children, all four are
absolutely gorgeous,, and their kids...whooee...even more beautiful.

Hybrid vigor will do that to yah.

I had a grand time. Met the old grandparents, 88 and 91, and goin'
strong (Okinawan if I don't miss my guess) and we chatted...I worked
for an Okinawan man right after WWII. Sharpest horse trainer I've ever
known. Worked Bing Crosby's race horses and ran them.

I know, you think I make all this up, and knowing how stuck you are,
it gives me a great chuckle to relate these events, knowing they all
are true.

You don't believe what I tell you about "race" either, and except were
I might be wrong from ignorance (and I try to remember to tell you
when I'm guessing or speculating) but not much otherwise, what I tell
you is true.

My brothers were delivered by a sweet woman that lost her children for
a very long time...because, though they were clean, well fed, and well
educated, she slept four of them to a bed, and she and they were
black.

I did have them as friends, practically brothers and sisters, and I
did hear an old white neighbor lady that up to that moment I held in
great affection, call them dirty little pickaninnies, and ask why my
mother let me play with them. I did become indoctrinated that day, the
first of many such indoctrinations that cost me in my heart, that I
was too young to resist.

And YOU are not different than that lady. I hate you for what you take
away from us, from all of us that don't want your world of little
****ball petty bigotry.

Had it not been for your kind, and you being a sucker for
institutional racism indoctrination I might have never lost those
people that were dear to me.

But we are still winning, you sorry piece of bigot crap. We are not
going to give up. No matter how long it takes.

And YES. What you think you are losing is going be taken, but it was
just your fantasy anyway. It's the whites that have been immoral. And
you'll be held accountable for it.

Consider your balloon burst. Go back to your racist propaganda
publications.

bobb

Kane, niger lover extraordinaire, kinda like those "messicans" too,
pretty much miss my asian family and friends, keep messin' with us
honkey and see what it get's yah, YOU don't own the U.S.A. if you
won't share you will get nothing.