"Briar Rabbit" wrote in message
...
Chotii wrote:

"Briar Rabbit" wrote in message
...

Sarah Vaughan wrote:



No. To be one of the uncircumcised, regardless of whether that's the
minority or the majority, because it avoids unnecessary harm and
discomfort.



Harm? What harm would that be?

The discomfort of the post circumcision period is minor and should not be
exaggerated ... unless you have an agenda?


No more than your own, sir. In the study you quote, please note that the
participants were consenting adults who chose to have surgeries. Their
post-surgical discomfort was within tolerable ranges, and they were
pleased with their choice. Presumably, there were also men who chose not
to have the surgery, and remained intact.



There were two issues. One related to post surgical discomfort and the
second (and unrelated) was about adults being happy or unhappy about being
circumcised. Why did you choose to fuse the two together?

You, sir, have fused them. You imply that the pain from circumcision is so
minor as to be irrelevent, and that any man who is unhappy with having been
altered is somehow wrong in the head. You have fused them by saying the one
is irrelevent, and the second is an indication of some mental abberation.

You state that (from the study I posted) the "post-surgical discomfort was
within tolerable ranges". Where did you get that from? The study did not
refer to this aspect at all. Why do you choose to misrepresent the study?

Excuse me. I conflated your comment that the pain is minimal, with the study
finding that adverse effects were "mild or
moderate and resolved within hours or several days of detection".

If post-surgical discomfort is minor, then why should not consenting
adults choose it if they wish?


Try that again in English please.

If post-surgical discomfort is so minor, then why can it not be left to
consenting adults to choose, or not choose, as they see fit? The amount of
pain is negligible, and brief, and should have no impact on said informed,
consenting adult who chooses it.


It seems to me that the dissatisfaction of that minority who now, having
been altered at birth, discover they must go to years(!) of effort in
order to re-create a facsimile of what other men take for
granted....matters. It matters to *them*. And neither you nor I may tell
them that they should just be happy with what they don't have, because
they're not. Conversely, for all the millions of men who are perfectly
happy with their altered state, we must accept that they are happy.



Oh ... you mean those sad and pathetic creatures called "tuggers" who hang
weights from their penises to stretch themselves some skin?

Here is a study into the psychosexual pathology behind the practice of
foreskin restoration.

We emphasize to these patients, as we emphasize to all candidates for
reconstructive surgery, that the surgery will not affect their
conflicts, anxieties, or interpersonal relationships, that it will
only make their bodies more as they wish. The ethical issues are no
different than for any other cosmetic procedure. There is high risk
of psychological sequellae in any patient with unrealistic, conscious
or unconscious wishes or hopes with respect to the surgery, and it
would be inappropriate to offer this procedure to such a patient or to
one lacking the ego strength or support system necessary to cope with
the frustrations and anxieties of a multistage procedure. It would also
be inappropriate to withhold reconstruction from a patient who met the
above criteria but had other psychological problems. Many physicians
have great difficulty dealing with these patients, generally
reacting with anger, amusement, rejection, or assumptions that the
patients are psychotic. The source of these countertransference
reactions is not clear. Intellectually, the request is similar to a
request for augmentation mammoplasty. Both are requests for change to
bring the body into compliance with a self body image. The operation is
more difficult than mammoplasty but is not mutilating like transsexual
surgery, which is far more accepted. We are not the first
professionals to encounter such patients; however, prior clinicians
have been reluctant to report these cases even when they were
willing to proceed with the surgery! We were not immune to
countertransference feelings, but our curiosity overcame our initial
feelings of shock and horror. Our curiosity led to empathy for the
discomfort felt by these patients, discomfort largely relieved by the
foreskin restoration in the four we accepted for surgery. Whether these
patients represent a new diagnostic entity or an unusual symptom that
may be related to a variety of personality or neurotic psychopathology
is unanswered at the present time. They tolerate and respond to surgical
restoration of their foreskins despite the presence of other
psychopathology and postoperative complications. Their body image
preoccupations have been unresponsive to conventional psychotherapy
despite benefit in other areas. Further research will be necessary to
confirm these preliminary observations.

Perhaps you missed the part where the researchers' "curiosity led to empathy
for the discomfort felt by these patients, discomfort (with body image)
largely relieved by the foreskin restoration".

It appears to me that these men have benefitted from having their bodies
"restored". Why exactly is this a problem? Why is it "pathetic" for tuggers
to alter their bodies to match their body image? Do you have the same
reaction to women who seek breast augmentation, rhinoplasty, or any other
body alteration?

The simple fact is, any consenting adult male can choose to alter his body
by circumcision, and *you* clearly think this is a fine thing. But let a man
attempt to alter his (already altered) body by tugging, surgery, or other
means, and you think he's pathetic.

You are inconsistent. And you lack the empathy that the researchers confess
to having felt.

And by the way, a study of four men doesn't convince me that ALL men seeking
foreskin restoration are suffering identical "issues". It does tell me
something about those men. That's all.

--angela