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In article .com,
"Amy" wrote:

I'm interested in why motherhood is so shattering for some people and not
for others.

She actually addresses that. She hypothesizes that younger moms have
"less to lose" in terms of career and money, because they aren't as
established, so they don't feel the loss of a job the way older moms
do. Younger moms also tend to "deal" better, because they have more
energy, generally, than older moms.

I was 31 when I had DS1; I wouldn't call that young for a first-time Mum! I
think I might have just hit the right time in terms of hte trade of between
life experience and energy.

Amy (I haven't thrown anything, yet, either, but I did drop an entire
high-chair-tray full of toys on the floor yesterday out of sheer
frustration)

LOL! The problem is having to pick them all up!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

"Amy" wrote in message
oups.com...

Sue wrote:

It can depend on the temperment of the children and how closely they
match
the moms. It also depends on the age of the child. If you are a parent of
a
baby, that to me isn't very stressful. However, if they children are
older
and there are more than one of them, it can be stressful. There are many
days I want to throw the phone at someone.

See, I'm the opposite. This newborn/baby stuff has been really hard
for me, but I'm great with older kids, always have been. My friends
with kids would call me for advice before I had a kid of my own. I
know that the toddler years are going to be a lot easier on me (ok, I
really shouldn't tempt fate... I *expect*, knowing myself and my
history with children, that the toddler years will be a lot easier on
me...). And that 4 - 12 range is when you get to do all the cool stuff
with them - when they still want you around, but they're old enough
that they can enjoy doing things, like going to the museum or a concert
or a play. I don't even have much fear of the teen years, to be
honest, because I did everything shocking when I was a teenager, and I
lived, so chances are she won't find anything to shock me (touch wood)
and we'll get through it. It's her dad I worry about - he's going to
need sedatives for the teen years. He still hasn't rebelled and he's
going to be 30 this year. He just won't get it if she rebels.

We're all different. Isn't it amazing?

Amy
(no, you can not mail your older kids to me, unless they're old enough
to babysit, so don't ask. )


Amy,
"the toddler years will be a lot easier on me..." "I don't even have much
fear of the teen years..."

I hope you print this out and put it somewhere safe, and then read it again
when your kid(s) are older and you are having a really bad day, and you can
laugh at how naive and optimistic you were. : )

Seriously, I adore kids, and have always been great with babies, toddlers
and older kids...then I had my own. The reality of having kids is nothing
like you imagine. It's not all walks in the park, field trips to the
museum, and making crafts at the kitchen table. In between all the
"starshine and daisy petals" is a whole lot of "NO mama, I wanna do it
myself!" and "AHHHHHHHHH WAAAAA, she's got my turtle!" and snotty noses and
colds that don't quit and everyone wanting your attention at the same time,
and on an on an on. And all the while you've got that damn purple dinosaur
in the background singing "I love you, you love me...." and you can't turn
it off because one of your kids has to watch it 37 times a week. It's
enough to make a grown woman cry.

I had a few bad days this past week, and called my mom and was talking to
her about it, and I began to cry, saying how some days I just don't feel
like I'm very good at this whole mothering thing. Which considering the
lengths to which I went to become a mother, is pretty dang upsetting. She
got a lump in her throat and said that she still has regrets and feels guilt
about how she did with us. Basically, every grandparent I've ever talked to
has said that you spend your whole life worrying about your kids, you spend
your whole life feeling like you didn't quite do the whole parenting thing
right, and you spend your whole life hoping you didn't **** them up
completely.

The best we can do is try to do better tomorrow. Wipe the slate clean and
try again. Luckily, children are very forgiving, and pretty adaptable. And
they love us and think that we hung the moon. It's not a bad system.

"the toddler years will be a lot easier on me..." LOL! I'm still giggling
from this one...

Good luck, kid. You're gonna need it. : )

Personally speaking, I think Chookie may be onto something with the whole
unrealistic expectations thing. Seriously, think about it.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
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Amy skrev:
or a play. I don't even have much fear of the teen years, to be
honest, because I did everything shocking when I was a teenager, and I
lived, so chances are she won't find anything to shock me (touch wood)
and we'll get through it.

That's exactly what I'm experiencing now. I have a 13 yo girl and she's
hasn't been nearly as bad as I was. Teenage years is a breeze. I mean:
She communicates! I didn't. I just shut up and didn't tell my parents
anything about my life, my friends, my lovers, my thoughts or anything.

And moved out at 15.

Nothing she can do can shock me - yes drugs, but apart from that?

Tine, Denmark

(((Jamie))) I'm sure you're doing a great job!

I found myself today thinking about how we're doing pretty
well handling both DS1 and DS2 right now and then reminding
myself how it's going ot get harder! Babyhood seemed
really difficult with DS1, but it's just gotten harder in
many ways (and now DS2's babyhood seems easy ... but I'm
betting that his toddlerhood won't, or if it does, it'll
only be because we're taking the advanced course in school
aged kids with DS1).

OTOH, I have to think that each parent has stages that
they are better at than others. Personally, I think I'll
gladly trade the mind-numbing repetition of the preschool
years for some of the more thorny headaches of elementary
school and adolesence. But maybe I should save this message
for the first time I've got DS1 telling me he hates me and
sulking in his room!

Oh, and the purple dinosaur doesn't exist in our house.
To the extent that DS1 has stumbled across him, we've
refused to name him and have maintained that the scares us :-)
Then again, DS1 goes to preschool full time, so it's much
easier to do without much television.

--
Emily
DS1 5/02
DS2 9/05

They tended to say things
like, "I'll never, ever sm*ck my child," or "I'll never, ever raise my voice",
and when things go "wrong" they are slow to ask for help (or to go on meds),
often seeing that as somehow wrong.

Things tend to change. I believe most of you would say: "I'll never ever
steal in a shop". That's the same way most people here say: "I'll never,
ever sm*ck my child". There's a law against both.

Thirty years ago you could (and did) smack your child, but you can't
anymore.

Interesting to see how a society changes.

Tine, Denmark

"Amy" wrote in message
See, I'm the opposite. This newborn/baby stuff has been really hard
for me, but I'm great with older kids, always have been. My friends
with kids would call me for advice before I had a kid of my own. I
know that the toddler years are going to be a lot easier on me (ok, I
really shouldn't tempt fate... I *expect*, knowing myself and my
history with children, that the toddler years will be a lot easier on
me...). And that 4 - 12 range is when you get to do all the cool stuff
with them - when they still want you around, but they're old enough
that they can enjoy doing things, like going to the museum or a concert
or a play. I don't even have much fear of the teen years, to be
honest, because I did everything shocking when I was a teenager, and I
lived, so chances are she won't find anything to shock me (touch wood)
and we'll get through it. It's her dad I worry about - he's going to
need sedatives for the teen years. He still hasn't rebelled and he's
going to be 30 this year. He just won't get it if she rebels.

We're all different. Isn't it amazing?

Amy
(no, you can not mail your older kids to me, unless they're old enough
to babysit, so don't ask. )

I am that way also. I much rather have my older kids than the babies and
even toddlers. But, that still wasn't too stressful for me. It was, don't
get me wrong, but it wasn't "real" parenting, if you can understand what I
mean. Now that they are pre-teen and teens, the real parenting comes in and
it can be very stressful. I am definitely liking having older kids now that
they can do more things and are more independent. However, my girls are
typical in that they are moody, sarcastic, bicker at each other and so on
and it can get really frustrating. And out of my three, there is only one I
would wish to send you. ;o)
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Jamie Clark wrote:
"Amy" wrote in message
oups.com...

Amy,
"the toddler years will be a lot easier on me..." "I don't even have much
fear of the teen years..."

I hope you print this out and put it somewhere safe, and then read it again
when your kid(s) are older and you are having a really bad day, and you can
laugh at how naive and optimistic you were. : )

Actually, I don't think that's necessarily true.
Yes, we all get surprises along the way, but I *do* think
that many people have ages and stages that they're better
or worse with than others. I do well with babies and not
so well with 3yos. I'm better again with early elementary,
and then struggle again as they approach pre-teens (so far).
My husband tends to be about the opposite (which is handy ;-)
though we're both struggling with the pre-teen thing. I
know a *lot* of folks post-toddler who say they had a much
easier time with toddlers than infants.
So, while I'm sure that Amy will have some
significant surprises along the way, and at *any* age
we tend to have some bad days where we doubt our abilities
to parent as we hoped we would, she might well find that
toddlers or elementary age kids *are* easier on her than
an infant.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Chookie wrote:

It seems to me that in some cases, when the blowfly of unrealistic
expectations hits the windscreen of reality, PPD is what we call the squashed
mess left behind! IOW PPD is a normal reaction -- the abnormal expectations
ahead of it are the real problem.

I don't think that's true. I think it may well be
true that PPD is more common in those who tend to be
perfectionists or have unreasonable expectations of themselves,
but I don't think that is the *cause*, and it certainly
happens to women who don't have unreasonable expectations
prior to getting hit with it. I think that explanation
trivializes the reality of PPD, as if it's something
you could just get over with an attitude adjustment.
On the other hand, I do agree that many people
have unreasonable expectations of motherhood/parenthood
and that many parents are harder on themselves than is
warranted. I also think that many people are just flat
out undisciplined, which makes everything harder. I
struggle to be disciplined in pretty much every aspect
of my life (I'm a naturally noncompliant sort ;-) ) and
I think that is one of the big differences between today
and years ago. Lack of discipline makes parenting much,
much harder. Whenever I find an issue I'm really struggling
with, it is almost always the case that it is the result
of my being undisciplined in one area or another.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Chookie wrote:
In article . com,
"Amy" wrote:

Now this is interesting, and I hope my question doesn't feel like I'm picking
on you, but it wounds like you must have thought:

- motherhood doesn't have bad days
- motherhood doesn't have different stages, and if it does, I will cope well
with ALL of them
- motherhood won't have bits I don't like
- if I don't enjoy/cope with some part of motherhood, that means I must be a
lousy mother
- if I ask for help, I must be a lousy mother

The reason this is interesting to me is that the people I know IRL who have
had PPD seem to all have very perfectionist or all-or-nothing approaches, and
to have been quite unrealistic about motherhood. They tended to say things
like, "I'll never, ever sm*ck my child," or "I'll never, ever raise my voice",
and when things go "wrong" they are slow to ask for help (or to go on meds),
often seeing that as somehow wrong.

Oh, you've hit the nail right on the head.

I had EXTREMELY unrealistic expectations about motherhood. I thought
that the baby would wake up, nurse, play for an hour, take a 3 hour
nap, wake up, nurse, play for an hour, take a 3 hour nap, nurse, be up
a little longer in the evening, then go to bed at 8 pm and wake up 3
times, maximum, in the night. Instead, I got a kid who sleeps an
average of 45 minutes to an hour at a stretch, who wants to nurse
CONSTANTLY, and anytime that she's not nursing only indicates that I
have managed to successfully distract her, but her "default" setting is
"NURSE ME NOW!" I got a very high-needs kid who wants to be held all
the time, and who fusses if she's put down for a second, but who,
strangely, doesn't like any carrier other than the sling, which isn't
really conducive to housework, etc.

I suppose that kids like the one I expected exist, but I sure didn't
get one.

I also tend to the perfectionist side. I have always been a
high-achiever, and don't do well when I feel like I'm not good at
something. I can't even tell you how many hobbies I've quit because I
didn't get good at them (or start to feel competent at them) quickly
enough. Strangely, I will also get bored with something if I get good
at it too quickly... I'll get just to the point where I'm starting to
do well, and quit because the challenge is gone. So, as you might
guess, I don't have hobbies (outside of reading and newsgroups) which
is fine right now because I don't have time, anyway.

You read the posts - I resisted PPD as long as I could, until there was
no alternative but to accept that I needed help or I was going to hurt
myself, or her. I thought she'd be better off without me, and if the
only thing I could do to get myself away from her (to protect her) was
to kill myself, well, that made perfect, logical sense at the time.
Oh, it gives me chills to think about the things I thought, then...

It seems to me that in some cases, when the blowfly of unrealistic
expectations hits the windscreen of reality, PPD is what we call the squashed
mess left behind! IOW PPD is a normal reaction -- the abnormal expectations
ahead of it are the real problem.

I think that's very astute, and very likely true in my case. I don't
know if it's that way for every woman who gets PPD, but I think it may
be true for me. I spent a lot of time doing "armchair parenting" -
criticizing other parents who were doing things wrong, IMNSHO. Now
that I am one, I realize that it's a lot harder than most moms make it
look, and I'm having to eat a big old slice of Humble Pie, and it's
pretty bitter.

I guess I'm still recovering from the PPD. I feel like I have to make
those first few months up to her, somehow, and that even doing my best
every day isn't good enough.

In my denomination these are called works of supererogation, "which cannot be
taught without arrogancy and impiety"!

How can you do more than your best? What if shock, horror! you don't do
your best one day? How can you make up sick days in motherhood, when you never
clock off? Who says you have to anyway? And, um, *what* do you do to make
up? Change nappies more often than required? Bath the baby twice a day?
Going by my kids, that would be worse than whatever was the first crime you
committed!

As my Grandma used to say: Tomorrow is another day.

I guess I'll buy her things, when she's older, to make up for the bad
days! LOL. I don't know. I don't know how to do better. I just know
that my best is proving to be not good enough, in this situation, and
it scares me.

It would help if you could meet my mom - she's the only person I know
who can take a sheep and make something useful all by herself. She's
good at everything she touches - she's a good businesswoman; she's good
at crafts; she's a gourmet chef (literally) and owns a ballroom where
she routinely entertains 300 people, and makes it look effortless;
she's good at things she's never done before; she's loved by almost
everyone she knows; she's Mary Poppins and Martha Stewart's love child.
It's a LOT to try to live up to. She and I have had this
conversation, and she actually feels terrible that I feel like I have
to live up to her (which just makes it worse!).

I guess I can look back at my life and see that all the things that
remind me of Mom - the making cookies, the art projects we did, the
creative things she did to keep us entertained even when we didn't have
any money - I look at those things and think, "My kids aren't going to
have those memories, because I suck at all of the above. How sad for
them..." and it doesn't make sense, because plenty of kids grow up with
moms who don't make cookies and they're fine, but the things that say
"Motherhood" to me are those little details - having homemade, healthy
meals - she had a garden and she canned all of her own tomatoes, etc.
and we ate them throughout the year - my kid is never going to have
that! I wouldn't have the first clue how to do any of it. So, I guess
in being bad at that stuff, or not interested in it, or unable to do it
for whatever reason (we don't have room for a garden in our yard, for
example), I've already failed.

And 5 month olds aren't interested in canned tomatoes anyway, so that
still leaves me with no idea what to do with her right now. *sigh*

So, I feel like I'm muddling through every day, just *surviving* when
what I really dreamed of, what I really wished for, for her, was
*thriving*. Maybe I should just Fed Ex her to my mom, and she can do
everything perfectly, and mail her back to me when she's finished.
Hahaa...

And before you say it, I know that it's unrealistic to expect that I'd
be an expert parent with only 5 months experience. I know that... But
I at least expected to be "above average," and if I'm really honest
with myself, I don't feel like I'm hitting that mark, either.

I can't believe I'm about to post this for all posterity on the
internet, but maybe reading my crazy will help someone else avoid their
own crazy...

Amy

Amy wrote:

I guess I can look back at my life and see that all the things that
remind me of Mom - the making cookies, the art projects we did, the
creative things she did to keep us entertained even when we didn't have
any money - I look at those things and think, "My kids aren't going to
have those memories, because I suck at all of the above. How sad for
them..." and it doesn't make sense, because plenty of kids grow up with
moms who don't make cookies and they're fine, but the things that say
"Motherhood" to me are those little details - having homemade, healthy
meals - she had a garden and she canned all of her own tomatoes, etc.
and we ate them throughout the year - my kid is never going to have
that! I wouldn't have the first clue how to do any of it. So, I guess
in being bad at that stuff, or not interested in it, or unable to do it
for whatever reason (we don't have room for a garden in our yard, for
example), I've already failed.

But you have to understand that those things were
special for you *because* your mother did them with you.
You might do something different with your daughter, and
then *those* things will be special to her and will be
the things that she remembers. It wasn't the fact that
your mom baked and did art projects with you that made
her special to you. It's the fact that your mom did
those things that made cookies and art projects special
to you. What if you had a kid who hated baking and art
projects? Would you be doomed to failure as a mother
because the kid refused to do them?
Parenting is an interaction between a parent and
a child. It's about doing things together that you both
enjoy, not about foisting any particular set of activities
on either party. You're going to find what *your* child
enjoys and share that with him or her, and that's what your
child is going to love and remember. Who knows? Maybe it
will be your presence on the sidelines at soccer games that
will be a treasured memory rather than baking and art.

And 5 month olds aren't interested in canned tomatoes anyway, so that
still leaves me with no idea what to do with her right now. *sigh*

So, I feel like I'm muddling through every day, just *surviving* when
what I really dreamed of, what I really wished for, for her, was
*thriving*.

Well, maybe you're not thriving right now, but your
daughter probably is ;-) That's the dirty little secret of
parenting--sometimes we just barely survive a stage our kids
go through. But hey, that's okay.

Also, keep in mind that you remember the good things
about your childhood, but there were certainly a bunch of
average days and some unhappy days as well. Your mom wasn't
perfect every day. Time just blurs some of those days when
they're not a regular feature.

Best wishes,
Ericka