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#71
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two headed baby
geopelia wrote:
Is ultrasound not part of the free antenatal medical care in U.S. public hospitals? What "free" antenatal medical care? We don't *have* free medical care in the US, unless you count a few programs available to the very poor. Surely it would be routine today. Neither the ACOG (American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists) nor the governing bodies in most countries support routine prenatal ultrasound. Studies do not show that it improves outcomes. Nevertheless, most OBs do a routine mid-trimester u/s. For my part, I made it through the better part of three pregnancies, having not had any medical indication for an u/s until the end of the third pregnancy. As for "advising" a woman with a grossly defective foetus to abort, wouldn't that be a doctor's duty? Why would it be? It is the caregiver's obligation to present options and their likely consequences, but it is the patient's right and responsibility to make the ultimate decision. Best wishes, Ericka |
#72
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two headed baby
In article ,
Jenn wrote: In article , "geopelia" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message ... In article , dragonlady wrote: In article , Jenn wrote: In article 8StWb.8573$uV3.18726@attbi_s51, "Mom2Aries" wrote: -- Cadie and Aries "Jenn" wrote in message ... | In article aAiVb.115596$U%5.596787@attbi_s03, | "Mom2Aries" wrote: | | Read the article. Nothing can follow this little girl around, she | died 7 | hours after the operation | | -- | Cadie and Aries | | this is a total pander --- why do people have to see these pictures | | except for the usual pornographic reasons? think how this child is | | going to love this following her around for the rest of her life -- | | pictures once publized are forever | | | | | and this is relevant because? presumably everyone hoped the baby would | survive -- and it is sad that she didn't -- to exploit her by | distributing these pictures is abusive IMHO -- would you really display | your child as a freak as was done in this case Because everyone was responding to the article, saying those pictures will follow the little girl around forever... showing that they had not read it. IMO, the whole thread could have been shortened and wouldn't have driven some people crazy if anyone would have just READ the article they were responding to, which said, on top of the picture, that the little girl died after surgery. I think it's funny (and slightly annoying) how people are going to argue over a point that is completely invalid, IE. how the little girl will feel having those pictures taken and publicized. And I also don't see how it's any of your (a collective your) business what these people allowed in the papers. that points was posted BEFORE the surgery and before she died -- How was she displayed as a freak? I don't recall any of the headlines stating "Come look at the 2 headed freak baby". It was an article about a rare medical occurrence, without pictures to document it's truth, it goes in the garbage never to be looked at again, and forgotten... or never believed in the first place. It's not like they put the pictures up in a tabloid, like some people have done. people 'interested' in these pictures are disgusting -- it is nothing but porn -- of course they were in the tabloids and all over the news -- where was the 'need to know' how was anyone's life improved by getting to look at the freak? bad behavior all around. [I give the parents a pass here because they were probably exploited by the press] I would disagree with this. Some of us have a long standing interest in all subjects ralated to twinning -- and that includes what causes both fraternal and identical twinning, and all of the variations that can occur with both. That means we are interested in conjoined twins, and that includes parasitic twins. I don't think that's pornographic -- but then, I seldom find any picture of what a real person looks like pornographic. This baby was a real person -- and that's really what she looked like. meh well you will be happy to know then that there are whole books that will allow you to look at people, fetuses etc with birth defects and deformities -- they are published for the non scientist because of the tremendous need for 'interested people' to get a look at something sad and weird The internet sites and books intended for medical persons are better, they give the scientific facts as well as the pictures. They are published to help and educate, not for shock value. I would advise a pregnant woman not to look at them. It can't possibly affect her baby, but it may affect her peace of mind. Today with ultrasound many defects can be discovered early and appropriate action taken. How was this condition missed for this unfortunate baby? Doesn't her country have ultrasound? Geopelia ultrasound rarely results in any real options -- and routine ultrasound is a huge waste of medical resources in a poor country [or in a rich one that spends lots on some people and little on others more needy] what appropriate option? the only option was aborting the defective fetus or hoping for the best with surgery after birth -- I have to agree with this -- almost. There ARE times when ultrasound shows a condition that can be corrected in utero, or that requires a specific approach to the delivery of the baby for the baby to survive. However, I turned down ultrasound (18 years ago) because they were just becoming routine, and I couldn't imagine any particular reason to do one. If I hadn't turned it down, maybe I would have known I was carrying twins BEFORE the first one was born . . . I'm not sure what benefit there would have been to that, except I'd have know WHY I was so extraordinarily tired! meh -- Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care |
#73
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two headed baby
In article , geopelia says...
Is ultrasound not part of the free antenatal medical care in U.S. public hospitals? Surely it would be routine today. Not necessarily - recently it's been considered a cost without enough benefit to justify it routinely. As for "advising" a woman with a grossly defective foetus to abort, wouldn't that be a doctor's duty? Why?? The physician's duty is to determine the facts and describe the options and their associated risks and benefits She couldn't be forced to do so of course, but she could be helped to see that it is the right thing to do. Think of the baby as a real person, and consider what kind of life it would have. Doctors may congratulate themselves on performing medical miracles, but the patient has to live with the consequences. This particular infant did IIRC have a good prognosis for the future if she had survived the surgery. So, the baby as a real person, is a person with a problem to repair, and a long normal life ahead. Pretty good consequences. Banty |
#74
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two headed baby
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:29:32 +1300, "geopelia"
wrote: s ultrasound not part of the free antenatal medical care in U.S. public hospitals? Surely it would be routine today. One, what US Public Hospitals? Two, the woman is not from the US, but from the Dominican Republic. Did you actually read the article? -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#75
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two headed baby
"Nan" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:29:32 +1300, "geopelia" wrote: "Nan" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:27 +1300, "geopelia" wrote: With a seriously defective foetus, the mother would be advised to have an abortion, but it is her choice. I'd have to seriously wonder about any doctor that would "advise" a woman to abort a baby. Presenting it as an option, maybe. But definitely not advise her. Surely ultrasound would have picked up the second head? More than likely, but given the economics of the family (about $200 monthly household income), it's not obvious that it was even an option. Many women in the US don't have ultrasounds due to the cost. Is there any better way than ultrasound for discovering serious defects before birth? Well, yes. Other tests are better, imo, but invasive and also expensive. Nan Is ultrasound not part of the free antenatal medical care in U.S. public hospitals? Surely it would be routine today. "free antenatal medical care"??? I've never known anyone that got free antenatal medical care, save for women on Medicaid, and even then some tests cost the patient money. People in the US pay insurance premiums as well as co-payments for medical care. Nothing is free. You Americans have an election coming up. Isn't this something you should be looking at? Make your politicians do something about it. All maternity care should be free. What happens to mothers who don't have the money for insurance and doctors' bills? Having a baby is expensive enough providing clothes and other items, and taking time off work, without having to pay for antematal care and delivery as well. You lead the world in so many ways, why neglect this important matter? As far as "routine", there is no earthly reason to have a "routine" ultrasound during pregnancy. It does nothing to improve outcomes, and is a waste of money and resources unless there is a medically based reason for having the test. As for "advising" a woman with a grossly defective foetus to abort, wouldn't that be a doctor's duty? She couldn't be forced to do so of course, but she could be helped to see that it is the right thing to do. No, I wouldn't think it would be a doctor's duty to advise a woman to abort. He/she can present it as an option, and help the woman to research the potential consequences. It's not a doctor's place to convince anyone that it would be the "right" thing to do. Think of the baby as a real person, and consider what kind of life it would have. Doctors may congratulate themselves on performing medical miracles, but the patient has to live with the consequences. This is why I said the above. Nan |
#76
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two headed baby
"geopelia" wrote in message ... "Nan" wrote in message ... On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:06:27 +1300, "geopelia" wrote: With a seriously defective foetus, the mother would be advised to have an abortion, but it is her choice. I'd have to seriously wonder about any doctor that would "advise" a woman to abort a baby. Presenting it as an option, maybe. But definitely not advise her. Surely ultrasound would have picked up the second head? More than likely, but given the economics of the family (about $200 monthly household income), it's not obvious that it was even an option. Many women in the US don't have ultrasounds due to the cost. Is there any better way than ultrasound for discovering serious defects before birth? Well, yes. Other tests are better, imo, but invasive and also expensive. Nan Is ultrasound not part of the free antenatal medical care in U.S. public hospitals? Surely it would be routine today. As for "advising" a woman with a grossly defective foetus to abort, wouldn't that be a doctor's duty? She couldn't be forced to do so of course, but she could be helped to see that it is the right thing to do. Think of the baby as a real person, and consider what kind of life it would have. Doctors may congratulate themselves on performing medical miracles, but the patient has to live with the consequences. Geopelia One ultrasound, fairly soon before birth to make sure the baby is in position, too late to abort regardless. Early ultrasounds are really only done if there is a fairly high probability of complications-or if the mother has good medical insurance and wants them. And the level of the ultrasound makes a big difference. The level 1 ultrasound done in most doctors offices and clinics only shows the most gross features. In order to get into detail, a level 3 or 4 ultrasound (which actually allows some viewing of internal organs-the images are rather scary-you can see every bone of the skeleton!) is needed-which requires very expensive equipment and very particular training, but, in the hands of a good practitioner, can identify many of the more common conditions pretty definitively. And, since some of the conditions which can be identified can now be treated in-utero, if you have a genetic history of the condition, it is worth checking out. Amniocentisis and CVS wouldn't have picked this up, regardless-both deal with genetic material, and twinning is not a chromosomal abnormality. |
#77
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two headed baby
On 11 Feb 2004 21:11:37 -0800, Banty wrote:
Why?? The physician's duty is to determine the facts and describe the options and their associated risks and benefits In many cases, I can look up the options and the associated risks and benefits for myself. So in addition to that recitation of available facts, I want my doctor's recommendation, where he or she feels there is a clear one that can be made. If the option/risk/benefit discussion does not end with a 'and under the circumstances, I recommend that we try this and here's my reasoning', I will ask for a recommendation. This is another opportunity to have a productive discussion between us, to help me focus my own research, and helps, frankly, to either confirm for me that I've hired the right medical professionals (is the recommendation well supported, even if I opt for a different choice?), or to help point me toward a decision to make a change. This particular infant did IIRC have a good prognosis for the future if she had survived the surgery. So, the baby as a real person, is a person with a problem to repair, and a long normal life ahead. Pretty good consequences. It sounds like it, for this baby. I would hope that a doctor would feel comfortable enough to recommend termination, where the baby has a defect incompatible with life. Not badger, mind you, but recommend. |
#78
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two headed baby
In article ,
"geopelia" wrote: "Nan" wrote in message ... Is ultrasound not part of the free antenatal medical care in U.S. public hospitals? Surely it would be routine today. "free antenatal medical care"??? I've never known anyone that got free antenatal medical care, save for women on Medicaid, and even then some tests cost the patient money. People in the US pay insurance premiums as well as co-payments for medical care. Nothing is free. You Americans have an election coming up. Isn't this something you should be looking at? Make your politicians do something about it. All maternity care should be free. What happens to mothers who don't have the money for insurance and doctors' bills? They either get no prenatal care or very little. Then, if something DOES go wrong that could have been handled with better prenatal care, they get criticised for not getting better prenatal care. In theory, people either have insurance (through their jobs) or are poor enough to qulify for Medicaid. In reality, there are many, many working poor who have neither. Having a baby is expensive enough providing clothes and other items, and taking time off work, without having to pay for antematal care and delivery as well. You lead the world in so many ways, why neglect this important matter? At least in my case, you're preaching to the choir. meh -- Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care |
#79
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two headed baby
In article , Kathy Cole says...
On 11 Feb 2004 21:11:37 -0800, Banty wrote: Why?? The physician's duty is to determine the facts and describe the options and their associated risks and benefits This particular infant did IIRC have a good prognosis for the future if she had survived the surgery. So, the baby as a real person, is a person with a problem to repair, and a long normal life ahead. Pretty good consequences. It sounds like it, for this baby. I would hope that a doctor would feel comfortable enough to recommend termination, where the baby has a defect incompatible with life. Not badger, mind you, but recommend. I don't understand the need for a recommendation even in that case. In that case, the facts and options that that physician would lay out for the pt would be pretty stark. The patient would much more likely go for a decision to terminate in that case. But her and her family's values still come to play. Banty |
#80
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two headed baby
geopelia wrote:
You Americans have an election coming up. Isn't this something you should be looking at? Make your politicians do something about it. All maternity care should be free. What happens to mothers who don't have the money for insurance and doctors' bills? Having a baby is expensive enough providing clothes and other items, and taking time off work, without having to pay for antematal care and delivery as well. You lead the world in so many ways, why neglect this important matter? There is no such thing as a free lunch sister. What you are advocating is another way of robbing men to pay women. Go pound sand. Bob -- When did we divide into sides? "As president, I will put American government and our legal system back on the side of women." John Kerry, leading Democratic candidate for President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/ |
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