Do you support educational vouchers in schools?

"enigma" wrote in message
. ..
"P. Tierney" wrote in
news:8663e.123250$r55.48940@attbi_s52:


"Herman Rubin" wrote in
message ...
Vouchers will enable the establishment of academic
private educational opportunities, which are extremely
rare at this time.

The nationally recognized academic private school that
I attended was about as traditional as they come. And they
staff scoffed at certain local public school reforms, like
ability-grouped K-4 classes, with age not taken into
consideration.

from what i've seen, those nationally recognised private
schools (charter schools?) are mostly worse than public
school. i'm suspect of anything like that because they're
corporate. coroporations are all about making money for thier
stockholders. keeping a bottom line is not conducive to a good
education...

In my case, I refer to a Catholic school, not the kind
of corporate charter that you mention.

The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students
by age, or to have them in the same grade in every
subject. But they are not really prepared for any
alternative, both academically and sociologically.

Private schools aren't either.

depends on the private school.

There certainly are exceptions. Well over 90%, I would
guess, are fairly traditional.

Montessori schools have kids
in groups: pre-k/K (3-6ish), lower elementary (6-9ish), upper
elementary (9-12ish). the school Boo attends allows crossovers
if a kid is advanced or behind in subjects.
the Waldorf schools i've looked into have 3-6s in one group,
then one teacher that takes the kids from 1st to 8th grade (so
they have the same teacher for 8 years).

Those seem like good schools, but locally, are the most
expensive in town.

i see both these models having *huge* advantages over how
public school work, but i don't see anyone suggesting these as
possible 'reforms' to public schools.

Some non-aged grouping has been done here, but the
parents overwhelmingly objected. Teachers following students
through the grades has also been done at various public schools
around here.


P. Tierney

"Herman Rubin" wrote in message
...
In article 8663e.123250$r55.48940@attbi_s52,
P. Tierney wrote:

"Herman Rubin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Banty wrote:
In article , Herman Rubin says...

In article ,
enigma wrote:
"Bob Coleslaw" wrote in
:

....................

The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from
the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those
who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers".

And vouchers will do - what - - exactly - to fix this?

Vouchers will enable the establishment of academic
private educational opportunities, which are extremely
rare at this time.

The nationally recognized academic private school that
I attended was about as traditional as they come. And they
staff scoffed at certain local public school reforms, like
ability-grouped K-4 classes, with age not taken into
consideration.

What happens to a student who passes the "4" level
in some subject at age 6?

Beats me. I didn't say that it fit your model to a T.
Nothing does.

Nationally recognized by whom?

Of the top of my head, I can't recall. I could look it up,
but I'd bet that it's organizations that you don't respect.

And I'm not saying that it's a great place. I won't send my
child there. But it *is* the type of place that, if given a free ride,
parents would flock to -- that school and ones like it.

If it is an organization of
teachers and schools of education, it is recognizing trivia
instead of substance.

Maybe, maybe not.

An academic school will not have a child in a "class"
for all subjects.

Like the college that you teach at? I'd be interested to
hear what you've done to break the mold at your job.

I am more and more questioning
whether an academic "school" will even be a school
as is usually understood.

By your definition, perhaps not. But by the public's, it
will. The schools have to satisfy the parents, not you.
If you wish to scoff at their choices from on high, then
that is your right. But it won't change anything.

The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students
by age, or to have them in the same grade in every
subject. But they are not really prepared for any
alternative, both academically and sociologically.

Private schools aren't either.

And the few academic ones do not.

Generally, I agree. But that is what the parents want.


P. Tierney

P. Tierney wrote:
"enigma" wrote in message

Montessori schools have kids
in groups: pre-k/K (3-6ish), lower elementary (6-9ish), upper
elementary (9-12ish). the school Boo attends allows crossovers
if a kid is advanced or behind in subjects.
the Waldorf schools i've looked into have 3-6s in one group,
then one teacher that takes the kids from 1st to 8th grade (so
they have the same teacher for 8 years).

Those seem like good schools, but locally, are the most
expensive in town.

i see both these models having *huge* advantages over how
public school work, but i don't see anyone suggesting these as
possible 'reforms' to public schools.

Some non-aged grouping has been done here, but the
parents overwhelmingly objected. Teachers following students
through the grades has also been done at various public schools
around here.


I've changed my mind somewhat on these two measures over the years. I
used to be very much in favor of grouping by ability rather than by
age. The problem I've come up against is that school isn't just about
academics, there are also social factors. And while some mixing of
age-groups is a good thing, I feel that making it a continuum puts the
youngest kids at a social disadvantage, and makes them want to emulate
the older ones, ready or not.

The same teacher each year seemed like a good idea, too, especially for
shy kids. But I can see quite a few downsides.

1. If the teacher and the student are not a really good fit, there's no
hope that the next change will be better.

2. Teachers, being human, are likely to develop views about each
child's nature and abilities over time. These can become
counter-productive.

3. Children change over time, more rapidly than adults; and what was a
good fit at first is not necessarily so two or three years later
--especially if the teacher is happier with certain age-groups than
with others.

4. If a teacher is with the same student for 8 years, it makes the
teacher extremely salient in that child's life, but it may not be a
reciprocal relationship. This could be quite distressing to a child who
finds himself or herself forgotten and supplanted in the teacher's
affections by the new class. (And what does the teacher do? Start a new
class over every 8 years?)

5. It also makes it more difficult for a new student - not only does
the child join a group where the kids have known each other for years,
they also know the teacher and she knows them. The child becomes a
double outsider.

This was, in fact, one of the several reasons I didn't pick a Waldorf
school for my kids. We did use a Montessori, though, and were pretty
happy with that for pre-school. We chose regular schools for later
years, though.

Rupa

On 1 Apr 2005 13:38:29 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In article ,
Banty wrote:
In article , Herman Rubin says...

In article ,
Banty wrote:
In article , Herman Rubin says...

In article ,
enigma wrote:
"Bob Coleslaw" wrote in
:

Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so
parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use
that money to fix up the public schools?

..................

At this time, NO student who is capable of getting a good
degree in mathematics or science or engineering or
agriculture or economics is getting even a fair high school
education corresponding to his abilities.

The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from
the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those
who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers".

And vouchers will do - what - - exactly - to fix this?

Vouchers will enable the establishment of academic
private educational opportunities, which are extremely
rare at this time. Vouchers will not remove the money
from the public schools for those who continue, and
most will continue.

Voucher money would come from exactly where, do you think??

I do not believe that any voucher proponent has suggested
that the amount of the voucher be more than the amount
being spent on that student in the public schools. Many
have suggested only half, which would leave more per pupil
for the public schools.

Oh you're going to spout this "more per pupil" nonsense too?! Surely
you know that's meaningless if "cost per pupil" also rises and rises
faster - as it does when you pull money out of public schools and hand
it to people who already are in private schools, many of whom don't
NEED to have their personal desires funded at public cost.

On 1 Apr 2005 15:40:53 -0800, wrote:

Some non-aged grouping has been done here, but the
parents overwhelmingly objected. Teachers following students
through the grades has also been done at various public schools
around here.


I've changed my mind somewhat on these two measures over the years. I
used to be very much in favor of grouping by ability rather than by
age. The problem I've come up against is that school isn't just about
academics, there are also social factors. And while some mixing of
age-groups is a good thing, I feel that making it a continuum puts the
youngest kids at a social disadvantage, and makes them want to emulate
the older ones, ready or not.

I don't see that this actually puts the youngest kids at a
disadvantage, but..... if the class is say grades 1 to 3 and
grades 4 to 6, then each child will get to be the youngest
and then the oldest in such a class at some time or another.

Aside from that the natural order of kids playing is *not* really
to play only with kids exactly your own age. Someone is always
going to be youngest or oldest by months if not by years.

It seems to me that as adults we lose those age distinctions
and their is no reason why it cannot be done sooner. Older
children need to learn empathy for younger ones and learn how
to accomodate them. Younger children need to learn how to
interact with older children as well as with adults.

My kids had grade mixes, though only two grades (1-2), (3-4)
and (4-5) and it worked really well.

The same teacher each year seemed like a good idea, too, especially for
shy kids. But I can see quite a few downsides.

1. If the teacher and the student are not a really good fit, there's no
hope that the next change will be better.

Allow children who don't get along well with a particular teacher
to change teachers at the end of a single year at parental request
or even at the request of the child or the teacher.

2. Teachers, being human, are likely to develop views about each
child's nature and abilities over time. These can become
counter-productive.

Perhaps, but it can also be quite productive if teachers know
what the child has learned and where to start each year.

3. Children change over time, more rapidly than adults; and what was a
good fit at first is not necessarily so two or three years later
--especially if the teacher is happier with certain age-groups than
with others.

Again, this could be fixed by making it a narrower age range.
Instead of 8 years, perhaps the teacher can loop for 2, 3 or 4
years depending on preference and abilities.

4. If a teacher is with the same student for 8 years, it makes the
teacher extremely salient in that child's life, but it may not be a
reciprocal relationship. This could be quite distressing to a child
who finds himself or herself forgotten and supplanted in the
teacher's affections by the new class. (And what does the
teacher do? Start a new class over every 8 years?)

Yep, they loop back to the earlier grade after the first class
graduates. Why should this be surprising given that for most
teachers, they have a new class every single year?

I don't think any child would be *forgotten* by the teacher, btw.
Also, a child who is a favorite of one teacher for a year, may
find himself or herself no longer a favorite in the next teacher's
class anyway. I don't see that the distress is any more significant.

5. It also makes it more difficult for a new student - not only does
the child join a group where the kids have known each other for years,
they also know the teacher and she knows them. The child becomes a
double outsider.

This can be remedied by the fact that the teachers are specifically
trained to make the class welcoming to newcomers. Note that this
also happens with the kids in regular classes, btw, since most of the
kids know each other through all of the school years despite being in
different teachers classes. I would think the teacher would be much
more sensitive to this in a class where they were with the kids for a
longer time.

This was, in fact, one of the several reasons I didn't pick a Waldorf
school for my kids. We did use a Montessori, though, and were pretty
happy with that for pre-school. We chose regular schools for later
years, though.

I can see your points, though I disagree with you about the general
results of looping and multiage classes.

Rupa


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"Herman Rubin" wrote in message
...

The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students
by age, or to have them in the same grade in every
subject. But they are not really prepared for any
alternative, both academically and sociologically.

Right, and there are public Montessori schools - which have multi-age
classes (e.g., 1-3 grades) whose students are not limited to corresponding
grade curricula. So, if a 7 year old is doing 6th grade math, she works on
6th grade math material.

Admittedly there are not many but they exist.

Jeanne

"P. Tierney" wrote:
....
Ours has no say, and very little overall power in hiring beyond
the superintendent. The individual school site-based committees
pick their own principal and administrators, assuming they passed
the screening interviews of the superintendent. The school board
has no say at all (and they don't like it, I might add).

I'm sure they could change that if they (a majority, anyway) really
wanted to...

I suspect that those that "don't like it" are those who like to be
noticed in the community but would actually have very little penchant
for actual work in more detail...just extrapolating from boards in
places I've been to observe closely...

"Bob Coleslaw" wrote
Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can
send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the
public schools?

No, of course not.
The gov't should stop stealing money from the citizenry in the first place
and people should be able to educate their children as they see fit.
All of the public schools buildings and facilities should be auctioned off
to the highest bidder and the proceeds divided amongst the people that paid
for them, the taxpayers.
Then, and only then, will all of the employees of the defunct and
fraudulent, not to mention immoral, public school system start learning how
to be productive and contributing members of society rather than the plague
and deadweight they are presently.

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:28:36 GMT, "Don"
wrote:

"Bob Coleslaw" wrote
Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can
send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the
public schools?

No, of course not.
The gov't should stop stealing money from the citizenry in the first place
and people should be able to educate their children as they see fit.
All of the public schools buildings and facilities should be auctioned off
to the highest bidder and the proceeds divided amongst the people that paid
for them, the taxpayers.
Then, and only then, will all of the employees of the defunct and
fraudulent, not to mention immoral, public school system start learning how
to be productive and contributing members of society rather than the plague
and deadweight they are presently.

I assume you also oppose and tax credits or government subsidies
for daycare so mothers can work.

Will your church provide for the children of the poor so the parents
can work at less than the minimum wage and survive?


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Is this money for woodworking classes?

If not, what's it have to do with this news group.

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:28:36 GMT, "Don"
wrote:

"Bob Coleslaw" wrote
Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can
send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the
public schools?

No, of course not.
The gov't should stop stealing money from the citizenry in the first place
and people should be able to educate their children as they see fit.
All of the public schools buildings and facilities should be auctioned off
to the highest bidder and the proceeds divided amongst the people that paid
for them, the taxpayers.
Then, and only then, will all of the employees of the defunct and
fraudulent, not to mention immoral, public school system start learning how
to be productive and contributing members of society rather than the plague
and deadweight they are presently.