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#21
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If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL
In article , Rosalie B. says...
"Illiana via FamilyKB.com" u38194@uwe wrote: Tom Enright wrote: In article . com, Beliavsky says... [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] fruits of his work is exploiting his body. He is denied the right to decide what is done with his body. No - he decides what kind of work he does with his body, or hopefully with his brain. Deciding what to do with the money he earns by this work is not slavery. It would be slavery if someone told him what work to do. Taking the fruit of one's labor is slavery. It has nothing to do at all with what work one does and whether or not he chooses that work. -Tom Enright Slavery would be if we never GOT the 'fruits of labor' or any part of it. It isn't that we have to pay for things that we've bought or done ".. Slavery emphasizes the idea of complete ownership and control by a master: as in to be sold into slavery. " You might just as well argue that because we have to pay taxes, that it is slavery. The government takes a part of what we make in many ways and a lot of the time. Actually, there are no fruits of labor when it comes to slavery. There is no pay, and no reward. I have to disagree and say it is not slavery. Right. Calling child support slavery is a perversion of the concept of slavery. It's as if we're all slaves to the local grocery store and mortgage bank or landlord. It's not slavery. Banty |
#22
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If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL
On Nov 14, 7:58 am, "Illiana via FamilyKB.com" u38194@uwe wrote:
Tom Enright wrote: Taking the fruit of one's labor is slavery. It has nothing to do at all with what work one does and whether or not he chooses that work. -Tom Enright Actually, there are no fruits of labor when it comes to slavery. There is no pay, and no reward. I have to disagree and say it is not slavery. Wrong, there is pay and reward for slavery. A slave receives food, shelter and basic medical care. A slaveowner does not want his slave to die, as he has spent money to purchase that slave. That is why in the southern US in the 19th century Irish immigrants were often given the most dangerous jobs. You wouldn't risk a slave . Slaves cost money, the Irish are free. -Tom Enright -- Message posted via FamilyKB.comhttp://www.familykb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/parenting/200711/1- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#23
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If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL
On Nov 14, 10:14 am, Banty wrote:
In article , Rosalie B. says... Right. Calling child support slavery is a perversion of the concept of slavery. It's as if we're all slaves to the local grocery store and mortgage bank or landlord. So your local grocery store takes money from your paycheck without your consent? Money that you have no way of deciding how it is spent. Your grocery store can have you imprisoned if you refuse the taking of this money? Really? Where the hell to you live? It's not slavery. -Tom Enright Banty |
#24
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If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL
On Nov 13, 1:25 pm, Banty wrote:
In article om, Beliavsky says... On Nov 9, 9:17 am, Banty wrote: If you create a system where men don't have a say in the decision of whether their children will be aborted, and are not even required to be informed before their unborn children are killed, lots of men, rightly or wrongly, will feel that if they have no rights, they have no responsibilities either if the mother decides not to abort. A man, even the father of a child, should *not* have a say in what someone does to their own body. That's why. For example, I can't tell *you* to give a kidney to anyone, even an aunt. Are you opposed to even requiring the father to be *notified* that an abortion is intended? That's what the law I cited was about. Well, I don't think one should be intended, but, given the current regime of the law on that, to what end would the father be notified? In a word, yes, I am opposed. It would be lovely if the woman informed the man, discussed it with him, and they reached a decision together. But should that be legally mandated? Hell no! What if the woman was raped? Or the man was abusive? Or it was a one- night stand and she doesn't even know where he is? If there were notification laws, the woman would either be denied her right to abort, or she would have to add the cost and trauma of a court hearing to an already traumatic experience. Or so that the man can browbeat her, in one direction or another? But what do YOU believe? Do you believe that a man should be entitled to force a woman to abort a child against her will? Because that seems to be the only logical end of your arguments, if indeed there *can* be a logical end to your arguments. And BTW, the two groups that statistically live the longest are married men and UNmarried women, destroying your entire argument (and leading to the old joke that an engagement ring is payment for the years that men suck off women's lives). Barbara |
#25
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If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL
In article .com, Barbara
says... On Nov 13, 1:25 pm, Banty wrote: In article om, Beliavsky says... On Nov 9, 9:17 am, Banty wrote: If you create a system where men don't have a say in the decision of whether their children will be aborted, and are not even required to be informed before their unborn children are killed, lots of men, rightly or wrongly, will feel that if they have no rights, they have no responsibilities either if the mother decides not to abort. A man, even the father of a child, should *not* have a say in what someone does to their own body. That's why. For example, I can't tell *you* to give a kidney to anyone, even an aunt. Are you opposed to even requiring the father to be *notified* that an abortion is intended? That's what the law I cited was about. Well, I don't think one should be intended, but, given the current regime of the law on that, to what end would the father be notified? In a word, yes, I am opposed. It would be lovely if the woman informed the man, discussed it with him, and they reached a decision together. But should that be legally mandated? Hell no! What if the woman was raped? Or the man was abusive? Or it was a one- night stand and she doesn't even know where he is? If there were notification laws, the woman would either be denied her right to abort, or she would have to add the cost and trauma of a court hearing to an already traumatic experience. Or so that the man can browbeat her, in one direction or another? It's only notifying him if she *plans* an abortion. But yes, the only reason I see for such a notification is for a browbeating. Or maybe even to force her into naming someone. Notification of *parents* regarding minors, however, is a different matter IMO. It shouldn't be like any other medical procedure or medication. But independant adults don't owe each other discussion of anything like this. Given that abortion is legal. Banty |
#26
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If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL
In article , Banty says...
In article .com, Barbara says... On Nov 13, 1:25 pm, Banty wrote: In article om, Beliavsky says... On Nov 9, 9:17 am, Banty wrote: If you create a system where men don't have a say in the decision of whether their children will be aborted, and are not even required to be informed before their unborn children are killed, lots of men, rightly or wrongly, will feel that if they have no rights, they have no responsibilities either if the mother decides not to abort. A man, even the father of a child, should *not* have a say in what someone does to their own body. That's why. For example, I can't tell *you* to give a kidney to anyone, even an aunt. Are you opposed to even requiring the father to be *notified* that an abortion is intended? That's what the law I cited was about. Well, I don't think one should be intended, but, given the current regime of the law on that, to what end would the father be notified? In a word, yes, I am opposed. It would be lovely if the woman informed the man, discussed it with him, and they reached a decision together. But should that be legally mandated? Hell no! What if the woman was raped? Or the man was abusive? Or it was a one- night stand and she doesn't even know where he is? If there were notification laws, the woman would either be denied her right to abort, or she would have to add the cost and trauma of a court hearing to an already traumatic experience. Or so that the man can browbeat her, in one direction or another? It's only notifying him if she *plans* an abortion. But yes, the only reason I see for such a notification is for a browbeating. Or maybe even to force her into naming someone. Notification of *parents* regarding minors, however, is a different matter IMO. It shouldn't be like any other medical procedure or medication. Whoops - it *should* be like any other medical procedure. (I think I mentally switched between "should be like" and " shouldn't be any different from" mid-stream.) Banty |
#27
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If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL
In article . com, Tom Enright
says... On Nov 14, 10:14 am, Banty wrote: In article , Rosalie B. says... Right. Calling child support slavery is a perversion of the concept of slavery. It's as if we're all slaves to the local grocery store and mortgage bank or landlord. So your local grocery store takes money from your paycheck without your consent? Money that you have no way of deciding how it is spent. Your grocery store can have you imprisoned if you refuse the taking of this money? Really? Where the hell to you live? If you don't pay the grocer, he can do worse than that! Banty |
#28
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If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL
In article om, Tom Enright
says... On Nov 14, 7:58 am, "Illiana via FamilyKB.com" u38194@uwe wrote: Tom Enright wrote: Taking the fruit of one's labor is slavery. It has nothing to do at all with what work one does and whether or not he chooses that work. -Tom Enright Actually, there are no fruits of labor when it comes to slavery. There is no pay, and no reward. I have to disagree and say it is not slavery. Wrong, there is pay and reward for slavery. A slave receives food, shelter and basic medical care. A slaveowner does not want his slave to die, as he has spent money to purchase that slave. That is why in the southern US in the 19th century Irish immigrants were often given the most dangerous jobs. You wouldn't risk a slave . Slaves cost money, the Irish are free. Leaving aside this idea that supporting one's own child has no reward (amazing...), you can think of it as a fine or payment for damages caused. Not slavery; something owed that could have been avoided. Certainly in this kind of case. Banty |
#29
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If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:51:35 -0800, Tom Enright wrote:
On Nov 14, 10:14 am, Banty wrote: In article , Rosalie B. says... Right. Calling child support slavery is a perversion of the concept of slavery. It's as if we're all slaves to the local grocery store and mortgage bank or landlord. So your local grocery store takes money from your paycheck without your consent? Money that you have no way of deciding how it is spent. Your grocery store can have you imprisoned if you refuse the taking of this money? Really? Where the hell to you live? So your boss can have you imprisoned if you refuse work for him? Really? |
#30
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If women have right to choose, men should have right to deny support-DAILOL
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:46:48 -0800, Tom Enright wrote:
On Nov 14, 7:58 am, "Illiana via FamilyKB.com" u38194@uwe wrote: Tom Enright wrote: Taking the fruit of one's labor is slavery. It has nothing to do at all with what work one does and whether or not he chooses that work. -Tom Enright Actually, there are no fruits of labor when it comes to slavery. There is no pay, and no reward. I have to disagree and say it is not slavery. Wrong, there is pay and reward for slavery. A slave receives food, shelter and basic medical care. Most working people do not work directly for food and shelter. They make money which they use to pay for such things. They have a choice to work or not work for their employer. That makes it not slavery. |
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