looking for other perspectives (very long)

In article , Joni
Rathbun says...


On Sun, 30 May 2004, Paula wrote:

Tony Miller shared the following perspective and
opinions:

If you don't believe that conveinently omitting the fact that he was
married to get into your pants was a lie, then I guess this guy is home
free with whatever he want to tell you (or maybe forget to tell you).


I didn't say that I don't believe that it was a lie ... it was, a lie
of ommission.

Believe me, I do a lot of thinking about what I would/do think about
him treating our "relationship"/me in the same fashion as I've
witnessed him treat his marriage/wife.

If you want to keep your head in the sand with regards to this man's
honesty (even forgetting for a moment that he cheats on his wife) then
please carry on.

Again, believe me, I never forget for a moment that he cheats on his
wife.

And to repeat something that I posted earlier, the "carrying on"
stopped months ago. What's left is emotions ... those of more than a
few people. I am trying very hard to decide what I think is
right/best for all of us.

That might be the problem. Hint: There is no solution to this mess that
will be right or good for everyone. Someone is going to be hurt. Someone
is going to be sad. Someone will always have questions and doubts.

Yes, absolutely.

To the OP - the only thing you're really protecting from being hurt is your own
feelings about the man. If you're a responsible and mature adult, it should be
clear to you that that is what needs to be sacrificed.

But
there might be a "close" to best and IMO that is: Let go. Leave the
man to repair his marriage and take responsibility for the additional
life he has created. Tell him you're moving on but you want him to
be a part of the child's life. Draw up a plan both of you can live with,
have a lawyer finalize it, and move on. If he says he doesn't want
to be a part of her life you can acccept that and move on or you can
seek legal assistance and move on.

Whatever you do, it's time to move on.

If, when his children are grown, he gets a divorce and comes looking
for you and you are still unattached, fine. But don't waste away
waiting for the day. You and your daughter both deserve more.



Well put. Follow Joni's advice.

You don't have to (and shouldn't) listen to the people advocating adoption or
talking about birthcontrol or abortion in retrospect. From all that I've read,
you sorta backed into a *planned* pregnancy, avoiding a decision. Not great,
but not much can be done about it now, and millions of single mothers have
raised kids successfully who were conceived any manner of ways. So it's pretty
useless advice - except to realize that you need to be more honest with
yourself.

You really should listen to folks telling you to move on. This will NOT be a
decent polyamorous relationship - your boyfriend hoped to back into one because
it behooves *him*. But there was someone kinda left out, wasn't there - like
his wife and kids. And the situation that was before, him sneaking around,
wasn't going to last.

So what we have here is a pretty classic self-delusional single woman in love
with a married man.

You have a pretty good offer, actually, compared to what other self-delusional
women-in-love-with-married-men have - an offer for child support (so you don't
have to fight in the courts, hopefully), and a distant parental relationship.

Take it.

Banty

sue shared the following perspective and opinions:
Paula wrote:
sue shared the following perspective and opinions:

oops sorry. You may need to add it back again.


I will apologize ahead of time if I misunderstand this comment and the
removal was unintentional, but sarcasm really is not productive toward
or conducive to open, honest communication.


I was saying you may need to add the other newsgroup back in, since my
responses aren't automatically set to reply to other newsgroups. I
cannot imagine where you read sarcasm.

Then, again, I am sorry. I can see it both ways and wasn't sure how
to read it.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


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Paula writes:

Paula shared the following perspective
and opinions:

Doug Anderson shared the following
perspective and opinions:

If you believe it is important for the father to be involved, yet you
chose to have a child with a man whose primary commitment was
elsewhere, that was _very_ unhealthy behavior on your part.

Ultimately, yes, I chose to have child with a man whose primary
commitment was elsewhere.

But, please remember that I honestly did not think that I _could get_
pregnant based on some pretty strong evidence (ref original post).
Other things that I chose to do was keep, try to protect, and do the
best I can for the blessing that was given to me.

to which Doug Anderson replied:
: Actually, your OP included very weak evidence that you couldn't get
: pregnant.

And exactly what is your personal experience and expertise in the area
of infertility to consider 5+ years and cycles of artificial
insemination with no resulting pregnancy "weak evidence"?

Talk to 100 women with fertility problems. A huge number of them get
pregnant anyway, often when they aren't trying. Haven't you known
couples who were convinced they were infertile, adopted, and then the
woman got pregnant?


Maybe I
also should add that I have a history of severe endometriosis and am a
DES daughter. Both of which are recognized contributors to
infertility.

Contributors yes, but women with endometriosis and DES daughters get
pregnant all the time too.


Look, all I'm saying is that it is _your_ contention that you believe
it is important for the father to be involved, yet _you_ decided to
behave in a way which had a good likelihood of getting you pregnant
with a man whose involvement was predictiably problematic.

In article oz9uc.5037$aN1.3371@fe21, Auntie Em says...

This is the most pathetic post I have ever written.

Paula, Jesus Christ! Have some integrity, Have some self respect. Why are
you wasting your life with all this stupidity.

Get a man who loves you and can marry you and can take care of you and your
little illigetimate child. Your current situation is a one-way ticket to
Nowheresville. Can't you see that? Move on - get a life - more importantly
GET SOME SELF ESTEEM will you please?

Em

She's to get some self esteem, and find someone to take care of her at the same
time?

Folks with self-esteem know they don't have to find someone to take care of
them.

Banty

Doug Anderson shared the following
perspective and opinions:

Paula writes:

...snip...
I've always heard this as "The frog and the scorpion" ... so you feel
that people never change, or that he won't/can't?

Ah, there is the rub.

Yes, people do change; generally through painful experience. He is
putting his wife through a painful experience (she may change). He
seems to be putting you through a painful experience (you may change).
He may be putting his children through a painful experience (this will
certainly affect them).

But it seems like he himself is not going through an especially
painful experience. His wife is sticking with him, and so far, so are
you. He may change - if his wife left him, and you refused to
continue to be involved in a romantic relationship with him, that
could well change him. But if he stays with his wife, and she and you
continue to allow him to string you along, he is _very_ unlikely to
change.

I agree with everything that you said except that he may be
experiencing more than pain than you think. I do agree, though, that
the amount of pain that he feels while he we are both sticking with
him, as you put it, is not enough to cause a change.

The situation stays "as is" is not an option that's why I came here.

Thank you
Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


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Paula wrote:

sue also replied:

: In your first post, you said (and I quote):
: "We talked about it and decided that if a child was meant to be
: concieved, it would be."
:
: You were planning to have a child with a man whose primary commitment
: was elsewhere.

I didn't plan it. I accepted it as a slim possibility. And yes, it
happened. My mistake.


If you aren't using birth control, you are planning to have a kid. It's
that simple. If you had been using birth control, it wouldn't have just
"happened." The fact that you said "if a child was meant to be
concieved, it would be" says it all.

: People who don't want to have kids use birth control. My sister's
: husband has a low sperm count and they were told that the chance of
: pregnancy is miniscule. They don't want kids, so she still takes the pill.

But I wanted to have kids. I think that I've made that perfectly
clear.

Did you tell him straight out that you WANTED a kid? Or did you omit
that little fact when you were telling him how unlikely it was that you
could get pregnant? Just curious.

sue shared the following perspective and opinions:



Paula wrote:

sue also replied:

: In your first post, you said (and I quote):
: "We talked about it and decided that if a child was meant to be
: concieved, it would be."
:
: You were planning to have a child with a man whose primary commitment
: was elsewhere.

I didn't plan it. I accepted it as a slim possibility. And yes, it
happened. My mistake.


If you aren't using birth control, you are planning to have a kid. It's
that simple. If you had been using birth control, it wouldn't have just
"happened." The fact that you said "if a child was meant to be
concieved, it would be" says it all.

: People who don't want to have kids use birth control. My sister's
: husband has a low sperm count and they were told that the chance of
: pregnancy is miniscule. They don't want kids, so she still takes the pill.

But I wanted to have kids. I think that I've made that perfectly
clear.

Did you tell him straight out that you WANTED a kid? Or did you omit
that little fact when you were telling him how unlikely it was that you
could get pregnant? Just curious.


I made it extremely clear that I very much wanted a child.
Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

Paula wrote:
sue shared the following perspective and opinions:



Paula wrote:


sue also replied:

: In your first post, you said (and I quote):
: "We talked about it and decided that if a child was meant to be
: concieved, it would be."
:
: You were planning to have a child with a man whose primary commitment
: was elsewhere.

I didn't plan it. I accepted it as a slim possibility. And yes, it
happened. My mistake.


If you aren't using birth control, you are planning to have a kid. It's
that simple. If you had been using birth control, it wouldn't have just
"happened." The fact that you said "if a child was meant to be
concieved, it would be" says it all.


: People who don't want to have kids use birth control. My sister's
: husband has a low sperm count and they were told that the chance of
: pregnancy is miniscule. They don't want kids, so she still takes the pill.

But I wanted to have kids. I think that I've made that perfectly
clear.

Did you tell him straight out that you WANTED a kid? Or did you omit
that little fact when you were telling him how unlikely it was that you
could get pregnant? Just curious.



I made it extremely clear that I very much wanted a child.
Paula


Wow. I honestly can't figure out what either of you were thinking or
your motives. The most generous assumption would be that there was just
no thought process at all from either of you. Otherwise,one would have
to assume that you were trying to get pregnant with a married man, and
that he was deliberately trying to hurt his wife and kids.

Paula wrote in :

sue shared the following perspective and opinions:
[snip]

I never said 'at least he hasn't lied' ... he has lied to her and most
likely to me too (although I have no example or proof).

You already have proof. You simply refuse to believe it was a lie.
When he invited you out, he allowed you to believe he was single.

I'm sorry that our difference of opinion with respect to what we
consider a "deliberate, intentional lie" strikes you as me refusing to
believe ... the only thing that I refuse to believe is that your
definition is any more correct than mine. It's really a matter of
opinion.
[snip]

Try a different approach: what if he doesn't tell you a deliberate lie,
but continues with his known style of behaviour?

Imagine you and him being married: he is going out of town on business.

You: will there be another woman sharing your hotel room?
Him: yes. There'll be two beds in the room though.

Would an open relationship like that be OK with you? You know he has slept
with women he is not married too, because he has slept with you, and from
what you have already said, I don't think an open relationship would be a
good idea for you.

Often, the best way of getting good advise is to imagine a friend has
asked you for advice.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

Doug Anderson shared the following
perspective and opinions:

Talk to 100 women with fertility problems. A huge number of them get
pregnant anyway, often when they aren't trying. Haven't you known
couples who were convinced they were infertile, adopted, and then the
woman got pregnant?

I would submit that, of 100 women with medically verified and defined
fertility problems, the number of women eventually able to conceive
and carry a child to term would not be as huge as you imply.

But, no, I have no numbers to back that up. Do you?


Paula writes:
Maybe I
also should add that I have a history of severe endometriosis and am a
DES daughter. Both of which are recognized contributors to
infertility.

Contributors yes, but women with endometriosis and DES daughters get
pregnant all the time too.


Look, all I'm saying is that it is _your_ contention that you believe
it is important for the father to be involved, yet _you_ decided to
behave in a way which had a good likelihood of getting you pregnant
with a man whose involvement was predictiably problematic.

It was not a "good likelihood" in my mind at the time, but agreed to
both of the above paragraphs.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


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