looking for other perspectives (very long)

In article ,
Ignoramus10600 wrote:

In article , dragonlady
wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus10600 wrote:

In article , sue wrote:
People who don't want to have kids use birth control. My sister's
husband has a low sperm count and they were told that the chance of
pregnancy is miniscule. They don't want kids, so she still takes the
pill.

Abortion is also an option that is available to everyone.

i

Physically, legally, yes.

Emotionally -- no.

For some people, it is simply not an option.

Adoption is also an option.

It is an option for everyone, some people simply refuse it.

i

I maintain that for those who genuinely believe that abortion is killing
a baby, it is NOT an option, any more than smothering a born infant
would be an option: of course they could DO it, but it would not be
something they could recover from.

I am speaking as someone who DID have an abortion Way Back When, and has
never regretted it -- but I think it is important to acknowledge that,
for those whose religious/whatever convictions are that abortion is
murder, it is NOT a viable option. To pretend otherwise is short
sighted.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"Circe" wrote in message
news:SQquc.18092$oi5.13914@fed1read07...
Banty wrote:
In article , Cheryl S. says...
What I honestly can't figure out is this whole line of discussion
where people are trying to figure out what either of them was
thinking or what their motives were. I don't see how that is a
factor in deciding what is
the best thing to do *now*. (which, IMO, is to cut ties with the
married man, other than financial child support, and find a kind,
honest, loving man to be a good husband and step-father)

It may a better path to make a good life as a single mother, and
not go beating bushes for step-fathers. At least for a good while.

I was thinking the same thing. Statistically speaking, stepfathers are
not especially good for children and the OP seems to have a history
of choosing men rather badly. I don't think she should take the risk
of exposing her child to another potentially poor choice of a mate.

Well, that's why I said, "kind, honest, loving...". Failing a
husband/stepfather such as that, remaining a single mother is clearly
the best option.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 8 months

Paula,

What I'm going to say might come across sounding harsh, but I mean it
as polite as possible and my intention is not to offend you:

I believe you are seriously deluding yourself.

What doesn't add up for me is that you were more than willing, before
you met this man, to consider having a baby without a father, via
sperm donation. And now you are trying to convince us that your
staying in this man's life (whether as co-parents or otherwise) is
mostly to do the right thing by your daughter.

I think you are using your daughter's "best interest" as your excuse
to do what *you* want to do - your own best interests - and that's
continue a relationship with this man. I suspect you honestly believe
you're doing what's best for your daughter, but the mind is a
complicated thing, and often comes up with elaborate rationalizations
to get what it wants. A common trick is to convince oneself that a
purely selfish act is completely selfless.

I find it hard to believe you will ever be able to manage a
co-parent-only relationship with him, and suspect that you will throw
your own life away waiting for him to leave his marriage. All the
while telling yourself that you're only hanging around, keeping in
touch, because it's in your daughter's best interests.

This is a situation that does not have an easy solution. Somebody is
going to have to get hurt, like it or not. The best solution would
minimize the hurt. I think his wife's suggestion is the best solution
all around. It is no different than had you conceived via sperm
donation.

It is sad your daughter will grow up not knowing her father, but you
seemed confident before that you could handle this situation and raise
a healthy, emotionally well-balanced child all on your own. I
encourage you to keep with that plan. I think also that gaining
distance from this man would do you a world of good. You are obviously
quite vulnerable to him, and not over your codependent issues.

Yes, the most loving thing to do in this situation is move far away
and cut off all contact. Not until you are strong enough that you no
longer delude yourself. I think you will know when you arrive at that
point. It will be when you see this man and talk to him, and he
doesn't make your heart flutter anymore. Then, you will know you are
finally healed, and ready for a healthier relationship with a
healthier person. People with complementary dysfunctions tend to
gravitate towards each other. Your dysfunctions are not yet resolved -
and you admit that yourself. Because of this, you've attracted into
your life, and your daughter's life, a man who's just as unhealthy as
you.

It is a shame that your daughter will have to give up her father, at
least until she's 18. But I think you will be stronger and healthier
on your own, and a better parent because of it.

Good luck and I wish you and your daughter my best.

jen

Cheryl S. wrote:
"Circe" wrote in message
news:SQquc.18092$oi5.13914@fed1read07...
Banty wrote:
In article , Cheryl S. says...
What I honestly can't figure out is this whole line of discussion
where people are trying to figure out what either of them was
thinking or what their motives were. I don't see how that is a
factor in deciding what is
the best thing to do *now*. (which, IMO, is to cut ties with the
married man, other than financial child support, and find a kind,
honest, loving man to be a good husband and step-father)

It may a better path to make a good life as a single mother, and
not go beating bushes for step-fathers. At least for a good
while.

I was thinking the same thing. Statistically speaking, stepfathers
are not especially good for children and the OP seems to have a
history of choosing men rather badly. I don't think she should
take the risk of exposing her child to another potentially poor
choice of a mate.

Well, that's why I said, "kind, honest, loving...".

Yes, but is she a good judge of kind, honest, and loving? History would seem
to indicate that she is not. And all of us can be fooled. The stakes are
just so much higher when there are children involved. I'll be honest: if
something were to happen to my husband and I were to be single again, I
would be *very* wary of dating seriously, let alone remarrying before my
kids had all graduated high school. I certainly wouldn't be actively
"looking" for a replacement dad for my kids, that's for sure.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Sin (Vernon, 2), Misery (Aurora, 4), and the Rising Son (Julian, 6)

Aurora (in the bathroom with her dad)--"It looks like an elephant, Daddy."
Me (later)--"You should feel flattered."

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

Failing a
husband/stepfather such as that, remaining a single mother is
clearly the best option.

In article , Ignoramus10600 says...

In article , dragonlady
wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus10600 wrote:

In article , sue wrote:
People who don't want to have kids use birth control. My sister's
husband has a low sperm count and they were told that the chance of
pregnancy is miniscule. They don't want kids, so she still takes the pill.

Abortion is also an option that is available to everyone.

i

Physically, legally, yes.

Emotionally -- no.

For some people, it is simply not an option.

Adoption is also an option.

It is an option for everyone, some people simply refuse it.

Well, it's an option to some like suicide is an option. Or joining the French
Foreign Legion.

There are options, and there are 'options'.

Banty

In article , Cheryl S. says...

"Circe" wrote in message
news:SQquc.18092$oi5.13914@fed1read07...
Banty wrote:
In article , Cheryl S. says...
What I honestly can't figure out is this whole line of discussion
where people are trying to figure out what either of them was
thinking or what their motives were. I don't see how that is a
factor in deciding what is
the best thing to do *now*. (which, IMO, is to cut ties with the
married man, other than financial child support, and find a kind,
honest, loving man to be a good husband and step-father)

It may a better path to make a good life as a single mother, and
not go beating bushes for step-fathers. At least for a good while.

I was thinking the same thing. Statistically speaking, stepfathers are
not especially good for children and the OP seems to have a history
of choosing men rather badly. I don't think she should take the risk
of exposing her child to another potentially poor choice of a mate.

Well, that's why I said, "kind, honest, loving...". Failing a
husband/stepfather such as that, remaining a single mother is clearly
the best option.

Well, if Sears and Roebuck's men's section meant something other than it now
does, so she could order up "kind, honest, loving...", she should do it.

Not to say that there aren't "kind, honest, loving..." men out there, but she
doesn't seem to have a good nose for them, and even if she did, there's a lot of
effort and distraction from her daughter's more immediate needs that would go
into the search. Believe me.

Staying single *and* unattached is something she should strongly consider.

Banty

In article , shinypenny says...

Paula,

What I'm going to say might come across sounding harsh, but I mean it
as polite as possible and my intention is not to offend you:

I believe you are seriously deluding yourself.

What doesn't add up for me is that you were more than willing, before
you met this man, to consider having a baby without a father, via
sperm donation. And now you are trying to convince us that your
staying in this man's life (whether as co-parents or otherwise) is
mostly to do the right thing by your daughter.

I think you are using your daughter's "best interest" as your excuse
to do what *you* want to do - your own best interests - and that's
continue a relationship with this man. I suspect you honestly believe
you're doing what's best for your daughter, but the mind is a
complicated thing, and often comes up with elaborate rationalizations
to get what it wants. A common trick is to convince oneself that a
purely selfish act is completely selfless.

I find it hard to believe you will ever be able to manage a
co-parent-only relationship with him, and suspect that you will throw
your own life away waiting for him to leave his marriage. All the
while telling yourself that you're only hanging around, keeping in
touch, because it's in your daughter's best interests.

This is a situation that does not have an easy solution. Somebody is
going to have to get hurt, like it or not. The best solution would
minimize the hurt. I think his wife's suggestion is the best solution
all around. It is no different than had you conceived via sperm
donation.

Except that she gets child support, in return for some complications. Which is
along the lines of what she may have rationalized to herself in her "whatever
happens, happens" view of a possible conception.

It's not a very honest way to go, with her self or with anybody.

I agree with all of the below...


It is sad your daughter will grow up not knowing her father, but you
seemed confident before that you could handle this situation and raise
a healthy, emotionally well-balanced child all on your own. I
encourage you to keep with that plan. I think also that gaining
distance from this man would do you a world of good. You are obviously
quite vulnerable to him, and not over your codependent issues.

Yes, the most loving thing to do in this situation is move far away
and cut off all contact. Not until you are strong enough that you no
longer delude yourself. I think you will know when you arrive at that
point. It will be when you see this man and talk to him, and he
doesn't make your heart flutter anymore. Then, you will know you are
finally healed, and ready for a healthier relationship with a
healthier person. People with complementary dysfunctions tend to
gravitate towards each other. Your dysfunctions are not yet resolved -
and you admit that yourself. Because of this, you've attracted into
your life, and your daughter's life, a man who's just as unhealthy as
you.

It is a shame that your daughter will have to give up her father, at
least until she's 18. But I think you will be stronger and healthier
on your own, and a better parent because of it.

Good luck and I wish you and your daughter my best.

jen

In article cIsuc.18133$oi5.5515@fed1read07, Circe says...


I was thinking the same thing. Statistically speaking, stepfathers
are not especially good for children and the OP seems to have a
history of choosing men rather badly. I don't think she should
take the risk of exposing her child to another potentially poor
choice of a mate.

Well, that's why I said, "kind, honest, loving...".

Yes, but is she a good judge of kind, honest, and loving? History would seem
to indicate that she is not. And all of us can be fooled. The stakes are
just so much higher when there are children involved. I'll be honest: if
something were to happen to my husband and I were to be single again, I
would be *very* wary of dating seriously, let alone remarrying before my
kids had all graduated high school. I certainly wouldn't be actively
"looking" for a replacement dad for my kids, that's for sure.

I'm a single, never-married mother myself, and, while I've done some dating (not
much), I've felt no compulsion to go on a step-daddy search. Stakes are too
high, there's a lot to be disrupted. Not that it wouldn't be good if it
happened, but it's highly unlikely someone would just up and take up the family
reins like in "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn".

Banty

On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:54:37 GMT, Paula
wrote:
Doug Anderson shared the following
perspective and opinions:

Talk to 100 women with fertility problems. A huge number of them get
pregnant anyway, often when they aren't trying. Haven't you known
couples who were convinced they were infertile, adopted, and then the
woman got pregnant?

I would submit that, of 100 women with medically verified and defined
fertility problems, the number of women eventually able to conceive
and carry a child to term would not be as huge as you imply.

But, no, I have no numbers to back that up. Do you?

Doesn't matter. You may have a 1 in a million chance of winning, but you
bought the lottery ticket.

Paula writes:
Maybe I
also should add that I have a history of severe endometriosis and am a
DES daughter. Both of which are recognized contributors to
infertility.

Contributors yes, but women with endometriosis and DES daughters get
pregnant all the time too.


Look, all I'm saying is that it is _your_ contention that you believe
it is important for the father to be involved, yet _you_ decided to
behave in a way which had a good likelihood of getting you pregnant
with a man whose involvement was predictiably problematic.

It was not a "good likelihood" in my mind at the time, but agreed to
both of the above paragraphs.

You bought the ticket.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Paula" wrote in message
...
I do see that the "current situation is a one-way ticket to
Nowheresville" thus the request for additional opinions and
perspectives before making a change that will affect my child for the
rest of her life.

I will not dispute that I have self esteem issues ... but it is not
non-existant. And that is why I must say that your direction to get a
man who can marry me and take care of my "little iligetimate child" is
absurd, judgemental, and filled with hate.

Therefore I will be reading no more of your posts. You have every
right to your opinion, but it provides no wisdom and is worthless in
my quest to gather all the information, perspectives, and opinions
that I can to make a very important decision for myself and my
daughter.

Paula

Killfiles are a wonderful thing, especially for eliminating mean-spirited
misanthropes like "Auntie Em" and her various incarnations, which are
legion.