new childfree newsgroup where parents can post too

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:19:52 -0400, "Jayne Kulikauskas"
wrote:

There are people who want to be members, they haven't managed to get
access
yet. We have a mailing list where we have been talking about starting up
a
group like this and I've run that FAQ by them.

Have them request the group from their own ISP newsservers and from
whatever other servers they use. It generally takes about two weeks
or so for a newsserver to add a group, but if a customer requests it
most are very good about it.

The University of Berlin one that I use did it in just one day. But the
other list memebers' servers seem to be taking longer. I suppose they will
be another week or so like you say.

If you have anyone who is on aol,
earthlink or other major servers, explain that it is a low traffic
group, but that there are people who wish to post there and revive
it and you should be able to get the group going. Then make sure
that your team posts to it from the servers they requested it on.

Thanks Dorothy. I'll mention this on our mailing list.

Jayne

"Wendy Marsden" wrote in message
...
In misc.kids Jayne Kulikauskas wrote:
I've thought about doing something like that, but I'm not sure what
group to
cross-post to where it won't annoy the regular participants. Misc.kids
has
been pretty quiet lately. How do misc.kids people feel about us
cross-posting some threads to a.c.b and m.k while we are getting
started?
They aren't supposed to be flamey but I don't know what will end up
happening.

I would be completely opposed to it. I'm not even able to grasp what
bridges you are intending to build between people who want kids and people
who don't. Do you think we live in different countries?

We often have very different pespectives. Sometimes it is useful to talk to
people who are different from oneself and understand how other people see
things.

You understand that most child-free people don't have a huge urge to go
around spouting hatred about sprogs, etc? The ones who post to ASC-F are
just, um, special. I believe the point of the group is to go someplace
where they can rant among friends.

My impression is that only a minority on ascf spout hatred. I think it is a
shame that they all have gotten that reputation. Most child-free people are
as reasonable as anybody else.

There is a thread going in alt.support.marriage right now where a man
married a woman who didn't want kids - and he doesn't want kids - and now
she wants them. It isn't about "bridge-building", it's about a very real
and specific issue in their marriage. I can't even see how THAT post
would work in the group you're proposing. They work it out or they
don't. There isn't a compromise position on this one.

For me bridge building is about understanding, not about compromising. Most
of the advice given to that couple was that they needed to talk to each
other and not just assume that they knew what the other thought. Letting go
of assumptions and talking to people is what building bridges is all about.

Jayne

"Jayne Kulikauskas" wrote in message
...

"Wendy Marsden" wrote in message

We often have very different pespectives. Sometimes it is useful to talk
to
people who are different from oneself and understand how other people see
things.

You understand that most child-free people don't have a huge urge to go
around spouting hatred about sprogs, etc? The ones who post to ASC-F
are
just, um, special. I believe the point of the group is to go someplace
where they can rant among friends.

My neighbors (a married couple) are a police officer and a fireman. They
have chosen not to have children. But they don't hate them. They certainly
don't call them 'crotchfruit' or 'sprogs' or anything else that entirely
ignores the point that children are little people. Difficult sometimes, yes.
Challenging. Not for everybody. But people with dignity all the same. Nor
do they call me a breeder, or anything else offensive. They're nice
neighbors who have made different life choices, which I respect perfectly
well.

I understand why someone, having chosen not to have children, might become
frustrated with family and friends encouraging them to do so regardless.
But I don't understand the nastiness. I honestly don't know what this 'new
childfree' group can hope to accomplish. It *will* be invaded by the
nasties, the namecalling *will* commence, the crossposting *will* follow,
and for the love of god and peace on earth, please don't go there. If this
'bridgebuilding' newsgroup died before, there's a reason.

--angela

In misc.kids Jayne Kulikauskas wrote:

We often have very different pespectives. Sometimes it is useful to talk to
people who are different from oneself and understand how other people see
things.

Okay, that's a nice thing. But this really only comes in handy when
trying to solve a problem, right? There isn't a problem to solve
here. They don't want kids, we do. No problem.

For me bridge building is about understanding, not about compromising. Most
of the advice given to that couple was that they needed to talk to each
other and not just assume that they knew what the other thought. Letting go
of assumptions and talking to people is what building bridges is all about.

But these people were trying to solve a very real problem: to have
children in this marriage or not. Your quest to "understand them" is
tinged with some undercurrents like, "I'm trying hard to make it okay with
me" or "if only I could figure them out I'd know how to fix them." I am
perfectly aware that this might not be your intention, but the quest to
study someone who is different than you DOES have some agenda beyond just
glorying in the diversity of this world, don't you think?

They are different. That's fine. I don't need to bridge that
difference. I'm pretty sure the people who DO ned to bridge that
difference will be like the married couple above: spcific people with a
specific issue. All the rest of the posters will just be defending their
point of view in one huge flamewar. Count me out.

By the way, my sister is adamantly child-free. So is one of my best
friends. We have never yet had to bridge the gulf between us on
this issue. They both are active in hobbies we are not engaged in. We
don't have to bridge that gulf, either.

Can you tell me an example of when you DO have to bridge the gulf between
child-free and parents?

Wendy

"Wendy Marsden" wrote in message
...

[]
Can you tell me an example of when you DO have to bridge the gulf between
child-free and parents?

There doesn't have to be a practical application for it. I like
understanding people who are different from me simply for the sake of
understanding them. I suppose it is connected to what I believe about the
importance of caring about people. Trying to understand people helps me to
care about them and treat them better.

Jayne

"Jayne Kulikauskas" wrote:

I would be completely opposed to it. I'm not even able to grasp what
bridges you are intending to build between people who want kids and
people
who don't. Do you think we live in different countries?

We often have very different pespectives. Sometimes it is useful to talk
to
people who are different from oneself and understand how other people see
things.

Talk about what? What exactly is the content of the newsgroup that
you are talking about? Perhaps I just don't understand why those who
are "childfree" have common issues or have any need to get together at
all (except perhaps for support among adults who want kids, but are unable),
much less wanting to "build bridges" with those who have kids.

So, what are some samples of thread topics that would reasonably
overlap? Hypothetically, of course.

You understand that most child-free people don't have a huge urge to go
around spouting hatred about sprogs, etc? The ones who post to ASC-F
are
just, um, special. I believe the point of the group is to go someplace
where they can rant among friends.

My impression is that only a minority on ascf spout hatred. I think it is
a
shame that they all have gotten that reputation. Most child-free people
are
as reasonable as anybody else.

True. But those who have posted on this newsgroup are about
as disgusting as they come. That has been my impression, anyway.



P. Tierney

"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:LNVXa.49979$Oz4.13871@rwcrnsc54...

[]
So, what are some samples of thread topics that would reasonably
overlap? Hypothetically, of course.

This is what it says in the alt.childfree.bridgebuilding FAQ:

Q. What are some examples of possible topics of discussion?

A. These include:
Information about CF events, articles and websites.
How the CF movement is related to population and environmental issues.
Societal support (or not) for child-rearing such as tax deductions for
children, maternity leave, subsidized day-care, family-friendly workplace
policies.
Appropriate standards of public behaviour for children
Descriptions of personal experiences or news stories involving
behaviour of children/parents or of the childfree that are likely to
generate differing opinions among parents and childfree because of their
differing perspectives.
Comparing the CF movement to other social movements.

[]
True. But those who have posted on this newsgroup are about
as disgusting as they come. That has been my impression, anyway.

I have seen some pretty awful stuff done by the extreme CF minority. One of
my first reactions was to prove to myself that they were a minority and that
there are lots of pleasant CF people out there. I had to hunt around on
mailing lists and websites and found them. I'm hoping that a newsgroup like
a.c.b will make them easier to find.

Jayne

"Jayne Kulikauskas" wrote in message
...

"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:LNVXa.49979$Oz4.13871@rwcrnsc54...

[]
So, what are some samples of thread topics that would reasonably
overlap? Hypothetically, of course.

This is what it says in the alt.childfree.bridgebuilding FAQ:

Q. What are some examples of possible topics of discussion?

A. These include:
Information about CF events, articles and websites.
How the CF movement is related to population and environmental issues.
Societal support (or not) for child-rearing such as tax deductions for
children, maternity leave, subsidized day-care, family-friendly workplace
policies.
Appropriate standards of public behaviour for children
Descriptions of personal experiences or news stories involving
behaviour of children/parents or of the childfree that are likely to
generate differing opinions among parents and childfree because of their
differing perspectives.
Comparing the CF movement to other social movements.

I didn't know that being CF was a "movement", as opposed to
unrelated individuals making unrelated choices, much like those
who choose to have kids. Live and learn.

True. But those who have posted on this newsgroup are about
as disgusting as they come. That has been my impression, anyway.

I have seen some pretty awful stuff done by the extreme CF minority. One
of
my first reactions was to prove to myself that they were a minority and
that
there are lots of pleasant CF people out there.

I'm sure that is the case, but crossposting would inflame the worst
of them, I would think. And the minority could easily drawf the posts
of the majority. This is the Internet, after all. Imagine a newsgroup of
religious teetotlers crossposting their messages with a newsgroup focused
on beer drinking. Nothing but trouble. But maybe kind of funny. ;-)

Could they, in theory, find issues to discuss, and do so reasonably?
Yes, in theory. But not in reality, imo.

I had to hunt around on
mailing lists and websites and found them. I'm hoping that a newsgroup
like
a.c.b will make them easier to find.

Sounds good. Good luck to ya.


P.
Tierney

"Jayne Kulikauskas" wrote in message ...
"toto" wrote in message
...

[]
The group is carried on altopia and if you get real traffic, other pay
newsservers will carry it.

Thanks for that info. I'm trying to keep track of which servers are
carrying it. I can add altopia to the list.

I see that you posted an FAQ there. Frankly, I suggest that you try
to find the original charter and that you don't post an FAQ until you
have some people who want to be regular members.

There are people who want to be members, they haven't managed to get access
yet. We have a mailing list where we have been talking about starting up a
group like this and I've run that FAQ by them.

I wish I could find the original charter, but a google search didn't help
and I can't think of any other way to look. Do you have any ideas, Dorothy?
Unfortunately, as it is, we just have to guess from its name.

You can't have a creation team for a group that already exists, btw.
That's silly, the group is already created.

This creation team has been around for a few months talking about creating a
new group. When we discovered there was an inactive group with a name that
fit our purpose we decided to revive it instead. I've just gotten into the
habit of referring to us as a creation team. Strictly speaking, I suppose
you are right. Now we are a revival team, but that just sounds weird. g

Although google is not carrying the group, you can xpost into other
groups and the posts *will* be on google, so if you keep the
xposting on topic to the groups you use, eventually you may gain
some people who will request the group on their ISPs.

I've thought about doing something like that, but I'm not sure what group to
cross-post to where it won't annoy the regular participants. Misc.kids has
been pretty quiet lately. How do misc.kids people feel about us
cross-posting some threads to a.c.b and m.k while we are getting started?

X-posting to soc.misc might be better received. That ng doesn't get a
lot of traffic.

-L.

"Silvasurfa" wrote in message
m...
"Jayne Kulikauskas" wrote in message
...
Some of you may remember a while ago there was some discussion of having
a
group in which parents and childfree could talk to each other. Parents
are
not welcome at alt.support.childfree so there is no opportunity for
constructive (or civil) dialogue there. It turns out there is a dead
group
called alt.childfree.bridgebuilding. Because it has been inactive for a
while most servers don't carry it. If you want to subscribe to this
group
you can ask your server to carry it or you can register with
http://News.Individual.NET a free server that has it already. This is
the
German server that a lot of the alt.mothers people use.

Those of you who were around during the revival of misc.kids are
familiar
with what is needed. You respond to appropriate posts and ignore the
others. My thanks to everyone who is willing to help.

Jayne


Ah. Oooookaaaay.

If I recall, at the time you last floated this idea of a NG for CF and
parents to get together and talk, my take on the matter was that I
don't particularly wish to spend my precious free time explaining
parenting to those who will never do it themselves, or indeed, getting
parenting advice from those who know jack **** about the activity, but
I would mildly appreciate a forum to sound off in when the target of
the hostility that sometimes accompanies my once every 28 days
hormonal disturbance just happens to be an ascfer. Imagine the opening
fight sequence from Gangs of New York. Yeah, like that.

Should I come over sometime when I feel the mood and raise hell, or
would you prefer that I didn't? Do tell.

In addition, for those of us who want children and don't have them, this
seems even more ludicrous. Having previously had a CF and happy about it
person tell me you don't need children to be fulfilled and happy, and I've
just been brainwashed by the whole "mother persona" in the media doesn't
help much. At least people who have children understand why I want them!