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  #1  
Old January 22nd 04, 02:42 PM
127.0.0.1
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Introduction

I used to lurk this group when my dd was younger. We got busy and I was off
usenet for awhile. Now she's 10, driving me crazy, and I've been back
lurking. Had a lot a questions the past few weeks I wanted to ask but
thought I'd post an intro first (and see if my postings work!).

I'm single mom, 10 yr old daughter, divorced 9 years. Her dad and I have
both been involved with her upbringing, although he's a passive aggressive
so I get most of the 'dirty' work ... like, two kids instead of one.

A year ago we had to put some physical distance from him (professional
advice) and this past holiday I had to put down some strict boundaries.
Makes the days more difficult to deal with 10-year-old transitions in some
ways; in others, much easier as I don't have him picking apart every
decision I make just to criticize. Actually, he spent xmas doing exactly
that to her, which was the reason for the restrictions.

Glad to see so many custodial (and non-) on this board. Parenting has
nothing to do with gender most of the time and seems society hasn't figured
that out yet.

Hope you'll bear with some of my questions and communication; sometimes a
bit off due to a disability, but generally if you tell me to shut up, I do.




  #2  
Old January 22nd 04, 11:22 PM
127.0.0.1
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Introduction

A little background here ...

No, our boundaries and restrictions aren't so formal. LOL ... I "sent him to
his room" so to speak. The physical distance is a rural area where airline
access is more time consuming (no major hub for quick 'disruptive' visits),
and the xmas restrictions are less phone contact for awhile while she goes
thru these HORRID pre-teen stages. Can you guess? He's no help with any of
it, but then he never was. I think he has a tendency to take on 'symptoms'
of whatever is around, including pre-pms!

Unhappily his behavior is not really fun to be around when you're on the
receiving end. I spent Thanksgiving and xmas having him expect me to wait on
him (you know, feed, entertain, etc., when those things are difficult in my
household due to dd's behavior and disabilities I have). That was the
physical; the constant criticizing and picking are something I tell him to
put where he sits, but at xmas he started in on dd, so that's the reason for
the restricted calls. If he's not going to help her, get out of the way! is
my opinion. In a week I think I heard nothing positive come out of his
mouth, certainly not supportive or nurturing. Oh well. It's pretty typical
of his passive aggressive approach to things. Sometimes its better,
sometimes like this. When its like this, its healthy to keep him at a
distance in many ways.

He knows that if he messes up too much and pushes too far he will lose the
little legal custody he has left. That will NOT stop his visitation or
involvement in her life. It will simply take his power to veto on decisions
away from him. This is because he has interfered with serious issues in the
past, including preventing her from appropriate medical care. It's for her
safety. Passive aggressives are not fun, and can be extremely dangerous.

Most of my questions here are to find out what y'all do (or might do) in
certain situations with her. I do NOT recall pulling nearly as much cr*p
when I was this age, although she was a challenge starting several years
ago. She definitely has an "attitude" which wasn't helped by daddy and
others interfering with key issues. Some of my probs with her are habits
she's developed from that, including the typical age-appropriate "duh!
what's a coat?" when you ask where their coat is. I've actually started
keeping a record of some of the responses I get!!! I see the humor in some,
but I'm not able to really laugh about any of it yet.

This Chinese New Year, which is observed in my house, was the third holiday
(Nov, Dec, now) that she has caused major disruption and, in effect, made it
not happen completely. I'm beside myself. In the past, its true, I was
pressured to do the holiday anyway because "she's too young, she doesn't
understand, she didn't mean it" ... So each time in the past the holiday
happened, but it was discussed with her and some consequences happened but
she sailed thru happily! This time I had it and shut down my house. No TV,
no recreation, nothing until there is satisfactory communication about the
problems. (I get the silent treatment too ... sullen, silent, anger ...
which I really hate.) Even the school got pulled into the manipulative
communication game, for which I ended up taking the responsibility for until
I asked them how they liked being jerked around by a 10-year-old! Basically,
she has little if any respect or courtesy for adults, although she's not
openly hostile ... she's manipulative. She is totally engrossed in
self-satisfaction; everything else is an irritation, and if it doesn't meet
her instant needs, she resists simply to resist.

It has been suggested several times in the past several years that I need
help to come in to assist me with my daily or weekly household tasks. I
realized a few weeks ago that although that stuff takes me longer, I can
still do it. What I can't do is wait hand and foot on a 10-year-old who
refuses to do ANYTHING. SHE needs the maid, I don't. And that's even more
frustrating.

I realize I'm not giving many details here. I just started rambling. I'l try
to post issues in a separate thread for responses as I can detail them. I
had six siblings with extended family close by and both parents in the
household; I do NOT know how to raise an only child with no extended family
involvement! Could use some balanced, objective advice that isn't "oh, it's
to HARD for her to remember that Thursday is trash night! You need to
remember and remind her."

Sorry to rant.



'Kate wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 07:42:06 -0600, "127.0.0.1"


snip
A year ago we had to put some physical distance from him (professional
advice) and this past holiday I had to put down some strict boundaries.
Makes the days more difficult to deal with 10-year-old transitions in

some
ways; in others, much easier as I don't have him picking apart every
decision I make just to criticize. Actually, he spent xmas doing exactly
that to her, which was the reason for the restrictions.


What kind of boundries? Regarding his (the father's) behaviors? Time
restrictions? Or supervised visitations?

snip


'Kate



  #3  
Old January 23rd 04, 02:11 AM
127.0.0.1
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Introduction

snip

My concern is that something has happened to her that she is not telling
you about and she's taking it out on you and everyone else who is close
to her... the people who didn't protect her. If her friends have
changed, if her schoolwork is less satisfactory than it use to be, and
she has changed drastically for the worse at home, it's worth
investigating the possibility that someone or something hurt her. I
think you'll probably need to find neutral ground and talk to her. I
use to take the kids out to a nice dinner one-on-one. It seemed that
when I treated them a little special, gave them my exclusive time with
no distractions, they were better able to see me as a person and vice
versa. I found out a lot during those dinners.


The past year and a bit have been hectic, moves, travel, and I've taken that
into account. She had to change schools and friends, which hurt me to do,
but necessary. At the same time, the 'friends' I took her from were not all
a very good influence, and the neighborhood was not the best. The rural
community is safer. I was sensitive to her not making friends as easily here
as she has in the past, but seeing some of her behavior consistently over
the past six months makes me understand a bit why she's not been accepted
very well. Her attitude sucks! She treats the kids much like she acts
generally ... she's the princess, they are the servants. And she
manipulates. It's subtle but its there. Kids tend to pick up this type of
thing subconsciously anyway, and this age group instinctively works out a
'pecking order' ... especially the girls. I got wise when, at every school
she's ever attended, the worst enemy she claims seems to be the one(s) she
considers the most popular. Then she sets up her own battlefield, subtle
manipulation. So this is something she is creating, and I've talked at
length with her about it, and it was raised in a conversation when talking
with the school counselor. The friend thing is going to have to work itself
out. I've offered to open the house for 'friend night' for kids to come play
board games, etc. (we have lots of movies). All she has to do is get names
and phone numbers. She won't do it. She expects me to hunt these people down
and serve them up. I won't.

As far as her being 'injured' the closest thing with that would be her
relationship with her dad. A strong contibuting factor for our move to this
place with more difficult access. She has a LOT of anger toward him because
of what he has done and still does. He alienated his family almost
immediately after the marriage (long story). Basically, they won't talk to
her unless he is with her. They won't call my house (in case I answer the
phone). She stopped sending cards and letters long ago because they never
responded, or filtered everything thru him. It's really sick, and he's
maintained a lot of lies for over 10 years that he can't emotionally be
truthful about or risk his credibility with them. It doesn't hurt me
anymore, but its tearing her apart. Add to that the fact that he is 4th
generation asian, but asian, and she is half. In California, with so much
diversity, this wasn't a problem; in the midwest in smaller areas, it is
more so. I know she has a lot of loneliness due to this at a time she really
needs it, but her dad refuses to help her with it. I took her to China for a
month two years ago, and not a single member of his family bothered to
contact us ... I think he stopped it, or didn't tell them we were going. I
also had the opportunity to speak to a number of chinese about his behavior
.... it is NOT typical chinese. In their words, it's sick! Back to passive
aggressive personality.

As far as the reward vs. punishment. WE have tried them all. This kid has
always had everything she ever wanted/needed. $$ has rarely been an issue
for her. The real problem has been that, because she is attractive (asian
mix kids are very pretty), adults have interfered with things I've expected
of her. "Oh, you sweet thing. That's too hard for you. Let your mom do it!"
type of thing. "Mom says you can't have that? Oh SURE you can." I didn't
figure that one out until we traveled overseas. Amazing the number of
Americans who will walk up and talk to a child and ignore the parent. I
stopped THAT fast when I realized it!

I know she's lonely, and not happy with the situation as it is. But she also
is stubborn and thinks she can wait me out. Not this time. It's cost me too
much in $$ and energy to go back to letting her get by with it. If she
doesn't learn the lesson, so be it. She can choose her lifestyle when she
turns 18.

BTW, when I joined a community organization that my grandmother used to
belong to, and she found out the meetings did not include non-members (and
members must be 18 to join), she called her dad and told him I was dumping
her ... abandoning her. Guess that tells how much of a social life I've had
in 10 years.

Right now I'm trying to get her to use a WRITTEN task list daily. She always
has the excuse "You didn't tell me that!" ... Since I've kept records of
everything I tell her, that's been a surprise for her too. I cannot believe
the ways she can try to work out of a chore or situation! For THAT I'll
start a thread!

Thanks for the encouragement!




  #4  
Old January 23rd 04, 11:27 AM
Moon Shyne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Introduction

Sorry to jump in here, and top posting too (double sin, 40 lashes with a wet
noodle)........

As another 'survivor' of a passive aggressive, it sounds a bit to me as though
the daughter here may be sharing some of the same tendencies........
and I'm not so sure that passive aggressive is a learned behavior anymore than
brain-chemical depression is a learned behavior......

step back for a minute:

The refusal to "do"...... letting it sit until someone else steps in and does
it...... and then no please or thank you, because after all, they didn't
actually ASK you to do it.......

Sounds P-A, doesn't it?

The manipulative behaviors, including the silent treatment until they get their
way........

Sounds P-A, doesn't it?

The focus on the self-satisfaction, and ignoring everything else as an
irritation........

Sounds P-A, doesn't it?

It may be worth considering....... and it's extremely difficult to raise a kid
who's P-A..... one of my two showed some of the same tendencies........

I've found that what seems to work best is to not let yourself get sucked into
the manipulative behaviors....... if they don't 'do', it won't get done.......
and when this starts impacting the things they WANT done, it starts to get
through....

Hope this helps


'Kate wrote in message ...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:22:15 -0600, "127.0.0.1"
A little background here ...

No, our boundaries and restrictions aren't so formal. LOL ... I "sent him to
his room" so to speak. The physical distance is a rural area where airline
access is more time consuming (no major hub for quick 'disruptive' visits),
and the xmas restrictions are less phone contact for awhile while she goes
thru these HORRID pre-teen stages. Can you guess? He's no help with any of
it, but then he never was. I think he has a tendency to take on 'symptoms'
of whatever is around, including pre-pms!


Heh... hey, that was MY spouse!

Unhappily his behavior is not really fun to be around when you're on the
receiving end.


I know. I remember.

I spent Thanksgiving and xmas having him expect me to wait on
him (you know, feed, entertain, etc., when those things are difficult in my
household due to dd's behavior and disabilities I have). That was the
physical; the constant criticizing and picking are something I tell him to
put where he sits, but at xmas he started in on dd, so that's the reason for
the restricted calls. If he's not going to help her, get out of the way! is
my opinion. In a week I think I heard nothing positive come out of his
mouth, certainly not supportive or nurturing. Oh well. It's pretty typical
of his passive aggressive approach to things. Sometimes its better,
sometimes like this. When its like this, its healthy to keep him at a
distance in many ways.

He knows that if he messes up too much and pushes too far he will lose the
little legal custody he has left. That will NOT stop his visitation or
involvement in her life. It will simply take his power to veto on decisions
away from him. This is because he has interfered with serious issues in the
past, including preventing her from appropriate medical care. It's for her
safety. Passive aggressives are not fun, and can be extremely dangerous.

Most of my questions here are to find out what y'all do (or might do) in
certain situations with her. I do NOT recall pulling nearly as much cr*p
when I was this age, although she was a challenge starting several years
ago. She definitely has an "attitude" which wasn't helped by daddy and
others interfering with key issues. Some of my probs with her are habits
she's developed from that, including the typical age-appropriate "duh!
what's a coat?" when you ask where their coat is. I've actually started
keeping a record of some of the responses I get!!! I see the humor in some,
but I'm not able to really laugh about any of it yet.


My young'ens are 13, 15 and 24. My daughters were more apt to behave
that way... once or twice. I simply said, "Excuse me?" in a tone that
let them know that if they persisted, something they didn't like would
come from it.

My oldest attempted to defy me once. I probably scarred her for
life.... I laughed. I'd been waiting for "it" to start. It was a rite
of passage in my mind. Actually, she turned out to be a really nice
person... someone I'd have as a friend if I wasn't already her mother.

Once it's started, though, it's hard to control. One of the better ways
of making children that age realize that they are, indeed, most
fortunate to be living in a home with a mother like you is to volunteer
their time (with you if possible) helping at a shelter for women and
children or families.


This Chinese New Year, which is observed in my house, was the third holiday
(Nov, Dec, now) that she has caused major disruption and, in effect, made it
not happen completely. I'm beside myself. In the past, its true, I was
pressured to do the holiday anyway because "she's too young, she doesn't
understand, she didn't mean it" ... So each time in the past the holiday
happened, but it was discussed with her and some consequences happened but
she sailed thru happily! This time I had it and shut down my house. No TV,
no recreation, nothing until there is satisfactory communication about the
problems. (I get the silent treatment too ... sullen, silent, anger ...
which I really hate.) Even the school got pulled into the manipulative
communication game, for which I ended up taking the responsibility for until
I asked them how they liked being jerked around by a 10-year-old! Basically,
she has little if any respect or courtesy for adults, although she's not
openly hostile ... she's manipulative. She is totally engrossed in
self-satisfaction; everything else is an irritation, and if it doesn't meet
her instant needs, she resists simply to resist.

It has been suggested several times in the past several years that I need
help to come in to assist me with my daily or weekly household tasks. I
realized a few weeks ago that although that stuff takes me longer, I can
still do it. What I can't do is wait hand and foot on a 10-year-old who
refuses to do ANYTHING. SHE needs the maid, I don't. And that's even more
frustrating.


Ok.. this is starting to sound like more than the typical pre-teen
defiance.

I realize I'm not giving many details here. I just started rambling. I'l try
to post issues in a separate thread for responses as I can detail them. I
had six siblings with extended family close by and both parents in the
household; I do NOT know how to raise an only child with no extended family
involvement! Could use some balanced, objective advice that isn't "oh, it's
to HARD for her to remember that Thursday is trash night! You need to
remember and remind her."


It isn't hard to remember. I agree that it is extremely difficult to
raise a child with little support... and moreso when you have the other
parent creating problems of his/her own.

My concern is that something has happened to her that she is not telling
you about and she's taking it out on you and everyone else who is close
to her... the people who didn't protect her. If her friends have
changed, if her schoolwork is less satisfactory than it use to be, and
she has changed drastically for the worse at home, it's worth
investigating the possibility that someone or something hurt her. I
think you'll probably need to find neutral ground and talk to her. I
use to take the kids out to a nice dinner one-on-one. It seemed that
when I treated them a little special, gave them my exclusive time with
no distractions, they were better able to see me as a person and vice
versa. I found out a lot during those dinners.

Sorry to rant.


Nah... don't be. Meanwhile, when you begin to react to your daughter's
hijinks, stop for a second, rethink your first reaction, and see if
there is a way to stop the situation from escalating. Sometimes quiet
words work better like, "When you've calmed down, we can talk about it."
or "When you can ask nicely..." to give her a reason to control her
behavior and to take yourself out of play. Consider making a list of
privileges and how she can earn them rather than a list of chores and
punishments.

Hope some of this helps.
'Kate



  #5  
Old January 24th 04, 01:14 AM
127.0.0.1
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Introduction

Thanks so much to you and Kate for the supportive words here. What you've
said I've also had suspicions of, but was also told that typically the
pre-teens are a bit p-a anyway and to wait it out. Biggest prob here is
she's been SPOILED ... of course, never by me!!! I wouldn't DREAM of it (LOL
.... I caused some of this problem!)

I know her personality well, but that doesn't give me answers on how to cope
with it daily. For example, she was one of those born in the year of the
Rooster (Chinese Astrology). She definitely IS a rooster! And proud of it.
And I explained that most barnyards only need ONE rooster ... the rest go
into the pot! She looked at me and replied "Duh! What do YOU know!" turned,
fluffed her feathers and strutted off!

Her dad can't do that. Which suggests to me that the p-a may not quite be
it, but she sure is good at manipulating. I wouldn't want to be one of those
little boys she's been eyeing since about 9 months.




"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...
Sorry to jump in here, and top posting too (double sin, 40 lashes with a

wet
noodle)........

As another 'survivor' of a passive aggressive, it sounds a bit to me as

though
the daughter here may be sharing some of the same tendencies........
and I'm not so sure that passive aggressive is a learned behavior anymore

than
brain-chemical depression is a learned behavior......

step back for a minute:

The refusal to "do"...... letting it sit until someone else steps in and

does
it...... and then no please or thank you, because after all, they didn't
actually ASK you to do it.......

Sounds P-A, doesn't it?

The manipulative behaviors, including the silent treatment until they get

their
way........

Sounds P-A, doesn't it?

The focus on the self-satisfaction, and ignoring everything else as an
irritation........

Sounds P-A, doesn't it?

It may be worth considering....... and it's extremely difficult to raise a

kid
who's P-A..... one of my two showed some of the same tendencies........

I've found that what seems to work best is to not let yourself get sucked

into
the manipulative behaviors....... if they don't 'do', it won't get

done.......
and when this starts impacting the things they WANT done, it starts to get
through....

Hope this helps


'Kate wrote in message

...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:22:15 -0600, "127.0.0.1"
A little background here ...

No, our boundaries and restrictions aren't so formal. LOL ... I "sent

him to
his room" so to speak. The physical distance is a rural area where

airline
access is more time consuming (no major hub for quick 'disruptive'

visits),
and the xmas restrictions are less phone contact for awhile while she

goes
thru these HORRID pre-teen stages. Can you guess? He's no help with any

of
it, but then he never was. I think he has a tendency to take on

'symptoms'
of whatever is around, including pre-pms!


Heh... hey, that was MY spouse!

Unhappily his behavior is not really fun to be around when you're on

the
receiving end.


I know. I remember.

I spent Thanksgiving and xmas having him expect me to wait on
him (you know, feed, entertain, etc., when those things are difficult

in my
household due to dd's behavior and disabilities I have). That was the
physical; the constant criticizing and picking are something I tell him

to
put where he sits, but at xmas he started in on dd, so that's the

reason for
the restricted calls. If he's not going to help her, get out of the

way! is
my opinion. In a week I think I heard nothing positive come out of his
mouth, certainly not supportive or nurturing. Oh well. It's pretty

typical
of his passive aggressive approach to things. Sometimes its better,
sometimes like this. When its like this, its healthy to keep him at a
distance in many ways.

He knows that if he messes up too much and pushes too far he will lose

the
little legal custody he has left. That will NOT stop his visitation or
involvement in her life. It will simply take his power to veto on

decisions
away from him. This is because he has interfered with serious issues in

the
past, including preventing her from appropriate medical care. It's for

her
safety. Passive aggressives are not fun, and can be extremely

dangerous.

Most of my questions here are to find out what y'all do (or might do)

in
certain situations with her. I do NOT recall pulling nearly as much

cr*p
when I was this age, although she was a challenge starting several

years
ago. She definitely has an "attitude" which wasn't helped by daddy and
others interfering with key issues. Some of my probs with her are

habits
she's developed from that, including the typical age-appropriate "duh!
what's a coat?" when you ask where their coat is. I've actually started
keeping a record of some of the responses I get!!! I see the humor in

some,
but I'm not able to really laugh about any of it yet.


My young'ens are 13, 15 and 24. My daughters were more apt to behave
that way... once or twice. I simply said, "Excuse me?" in a tone that
let them know that if they persisted, something they didn't like would
come from it.

My oldest attempted to defy me once. I probably scarred her for
life.... I laughed. I'd been waiting for "it" to start. It was a rite
of passage in my mind. Actually, she turned out to be a really nice
person... someone I'd have as a friend if I wasn't already her mother.

Once it's started, though, it's hard to control. One of the better ways
of making children that age realize that they are, indeed, most
fortunate to be living in a home with a mother like you is to volunteer
their time (with you if possible) helping at a shelter for women and
children or families.


This Chinese New Year, which is observed in my house, was the third

holiday
(Nov, Dec, now) that she has caused major disruption and, in effect,

made it
not happen completely. I'm beside myself. In the past, its true, I was
pressured to do the holiday anyway because "she's too young, she

doesn't
understand, she didn't mean it" ... So each time in the past the

holiday
happened, but it was discussed with her and some consequences happened

but
she sailed thru happily! This time I had it and shut down my house. No

TV,
no recreation, nothing until there is satisfactory communication about

the
problems. (I get the silent treatment too ... sullen, silent, anger ...
which I really hate.) Even the school got pulled into the manipulative
communication game, for which I ended up taking the responsibility for

until
I asked them how they liked being jerked around by a 10-year-old!

Basically,
she has little if any respect or courtesy for adults, although she's

not
openly hostile ... she's manipulative. She is totally engrossed in
self-satisfaction; everything else is an irritation, and if it doesn't

meet
her instant needs, she resists simply to resist.

It has been suggested several times in the past several years that I

need
help to come in to assist me with my daily or weekly household tasks. I
realized a few weeks ago that although that stuff takes me longer, I

can
still do it. What I can't do is wait hand and foot on a 10-year-old who
refuses to do ANYTHING. SHE needs the maid, I don't. And that's even

more
frustrating.


Ok.. this is starting to sound like more than the typical pre-teen
defiance.

I realize I'm not giving many details here. I just started rambling.

I'l try
to post issues in a separate thread for responses as I can detail them.

I
had six siblings with extended family close by and both parents in the
household; I do NOT know how to raise an only child with no extended

family
involvement! Could use some balanced, objective advice that isn't "oh,

it's
to HARD for her to remember that Thursday is trash night! You need to
remember and remind her."


It isn't hard to remember. I agree that it is extremely difficult to
raise a child with little support... and moreso when you have the other
parent creating problems of his/her own.

My concern is that something has happened to her that she is not telling
you about and she's taking it out on you and everyone else who is close
to her... the people who didn't protect her. If her friends have
changed, if her schoolwork is less satisfactory than it use to be, and
she has changed drastically for the worse at home, it's worth
investigating the possibility that someone or something hurt her. I
think you'll probably need to find neutral ground and talk to her. I
use to take the kids out to a nice dinner one-on-one. It seemed that
when I treated them a little special, gave them my exclusive time with
no distractions, they were better able to see me as a person and vice
versa. I found out a lot during those dinners.

Sorry to rant.


Nah... don't be. Meanwhile, when you begin to react to your daughter's
hijinks, stop for a second, rethink your first reaction, and see if
there is a way to stop the situation from escalating. Sometimes quiet
words work better like, "When you've calmed down, we can talk about it."
or "When you can ask nicely..." to give her a reason to control her
behavior and to take yourself out of play. Consider making a list of
privileges and how she can earn them rather than a list of chores and
punishments.

Hope some of this helps.
'Kate






 




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