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Interesting New Research on Spanking



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 10th 06, 12:04 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default Interesting New Research on Spanking

A ground-breaking study examined whether the normativeness of physical
discipline moderates the link between mothers' use of physical
discipline and children's adjustment. The sample included 336
mother-child dyads from China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines, and
Thailand.

Results revealed that "physical discipline was less strongly associated
with adverse child outcomes in conditions of greater perceived
normativeness, but physical discipline was also associated with more
adverse outcomes regardless of the perceived normativeness. Countries
with the lowest use of physical disciplined showed the strongest
association between mother's use and children's behavior problems, but
in all countries, higher use of physical discipline was associated with
more aggression and anxiety." (Lansford, et.al. 2005, 1234)

This is interesting because culture and what is considered the norm is
so often used as a justifier for physical discipline. This study
clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were
less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still
associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety
and aggresstion.

So I ask again -- why use physical discipline when yet another study
finds it to be harmful to children?

LaVonne

Reference:

Lansford, J., Dodge, K. & Malone, P., Bacchini, D., Zelli, A.,
Chaudhary, N., Manke, B., Chang, L., Oburu, P., Palmerus, K.,
Pastorelli, C., Bombi, A., Tapanya, S., Deater-Deckard, K., & Quinn, N.
(2005). Physical Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural
Normativeness as a Moderator. Child Development, November/December
2005. 76(6), 1234-1246.

  #2  
Old February 10th 06, 12:19 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default Interesting New Research on Spanking


So, LaVonne, what about the non-cp alternatives? How do they compare
to spanking under the same statistical analysis? I have checked
the archives and CAN'T FIND them. Help me, please! ;-)

Doan

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

A ground-breaking study examined whether the normativeness of physical
discipline moderates the link between mothers' use of physical
discipline and children's adjustment. The sample included 336
mother-child dyads from China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines, and
Thailand.

Results revealed that "physical discipline was less strongly associated
with adverse child outcomes in conditions of greater perceived
normativeness, but physical discipline was also associated with more
adverse outcomes regardless of the perceived normativeness. Countries
with the lowest use of physical disciplined showed the strongest
association between mother's use and children's behavior problems, but
in all countries, higher use of physical discipline was associated with
more aggression and anxiety." (Lansford, et.al. 2005, 1234)

This is interesting because culture and what is considered the norm is
so often used as a justifier for physical discipline. This study
clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were
less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still
associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety
and aggresstion.

So I ask again -- why use physical discipline when yet another study
finds it to be harmful to children?

LaVonne

Reference:

Lansford, J., Dodge, K. & Malone, P., Bacchini, D., Zelli, A.,
Chaudhary, N., Manke, B., Chang, L., Oburu, P., Palmerus, K.,
Pastorelli, C., Bombi, A., Tapanya, S., Deater-Deckard, K., & Quinn, N.
(2005). Physical Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural
Normativeness as a Moderator. Child Development, November/December
2005. 76(6), 1234-1246.



  #3  
Old February 10th 06, 12:33 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default Interesting New Research on Spanking


Doan wrote:
So, LaVonne, what about the non-cp alternatives? How do they compare
to spanking under the same statistical analysis? I have checked
the archives and CAN'T FIND them. Help me, please! ;-)


In other words you don't wish to debate the information presented. How
typical.

0:-


Doan

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

A ground-breaking study examined whether the normativeness of physical
discipline moderates the link between mothers' use of physical
discipline and children's adjustment. The sample included 336
mother-child dyads from China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines, and
Thailand.

Results revealed that "physical discipline was less strongly associated
with adverse child outcomes in conditions of greater perceived
normativeness, but physical discipline was also associated with more
adverse outcomes regardless of the perceived normativeness. Countries
with the lowest use of physical disciplined showed the strongest
association between mother's use and children's behavior problems, but
in all countries, higher use of physical discipline was associated with
more aggression and anxiety." (Lansford, et.al. 2005, 1234)

This is interesting because culture and what is considered the norm is
so often used as a justifier for physical discipline. This study
clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were
less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still
associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety
and aggresstion.

So I ask again -- why use physical discipline when yet another study
finds it to be harmful to children?

LaVonne

Reference:

Lansford, J., Dodge, K. & Malone, P., Bacchini, D., Zelli, A.,
Chaudhary, N., Manke, B., Chang, L., Oburu, P., Palmerus, K.,
Pastorelli, C., Bombi, A., Tapanya, S., Deater-Deckard, K., & Quinn, N.
(2005). Physical Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural
Normativeness as a Moderator. Child Development, November/December
2005. 76(6), 1234-1246.



  #4  
Old February 10th 06, 10:13 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default Interesting New Research on Spanking

I had presumed, LaVonne, that since all the pro spankers and advocates
for CP that post here were scrupulously honest 0;- that when they
claimed that the reason for the effectiveness
or the use of CP being based on it's appropriatness within a culture.

Seems they didn't do their homework. Surprise.

"Although race or ethnicity might be conceptualized as a proxy for
culture, and previous research has offered hypotheses about why race or
ethnicity might moderate the link between physical discipline and
children's adjustment, extant studies have not empirically examined
these possible explanations."

Darn.

Kane

  #5  
Old February 11th 06, 08:52 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default Interesting New Research on Spanking


Did you read the whole study, LaVonne?

"One limitation of this study is that the sampled countries differ along a
number of dimensions that are not reflected specifically in the analyses,
even though country-level effects were modeled in the multilevel
regressions. One dimension is the culture's predominant religious
affiliation, which has been found to be importantly related to parents'
discipline strategies even within the United States (e.g., Gershoff et
al., 1999). A second dimension is notable laws involving family life
(e.g., the one-child policy in China). A third dimension is socioeconomic
resources available in a culture. A fourth dimension is other cultural
norms that are distinct from, yet related to, physical discipline (e.g.,
views about children as property, beliefs about aggression generally, how
parenting fits with religious beliefs). These dimensions may affect how
normative parents within a country believe physical discipline to be. It
is also possible that these dimensions are related to parents' use of
physical discipline without being related to the links between parents'
use of physical discipline and children's adjustment. Future research
should attempt to unpack these elements to investigate what, in
particular, are the important cultural features that are related to
differences in discipline strategies and the effects of these strategies
on children's adjustment. Future research should also examine different
aspects of children's experience of discipline such as the duration of the
discipline and its severity."

Doan

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

A ground-breaking study examined whether the normativeness of physical
discipline moderates the link between mothers' use of physical
discipline and children's adjustment. The sample included 336
mother-child dyads from China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines, and
Thailand.

Results revealed that "physical discipline was less strongly associated
with adverse child outcomes in conditions of greater perceived
normativeness, but physical discipline was also associated with more
adverse outcomes regardless of the perceived normativeness. Countries
with the lowest use of physical disciplined showed the strongest
association between mother's use and children's behavior problems, but
in all countries, higher use of physical discipline was associated with
more aggression and anxiety." (Lansford, et.al. 2005, 1234)

This is interesting because culture and what is considered the norm is
so often used as a justifier for physical discipline. This study
clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were
less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still
associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety
and aggresstion.

So I ask again -- why use physical discipline when yet another study
finds it to be harmful to children?

LaVonne

Reference:

Lansford, J., Dodge, K. & Malone, P., Bacchini, D., Zelli, A.,
Chaudhary, N., Manke, B., Chang, L., Oburu, P., Palmerus, K.,
Pastorelli, C., Bombi, A., Tapanya, S., Deater-Deckard, K., & Quinn, N.
(2005). Physical Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural
Normativeness as a Moderator. Child Development, November/December
2005. 76(6), 1234-1246.



  #6  
Old February 11th 06, 09:28 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default Interesting New Research on Spanking

LaVonne:
This study
clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were
less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still
associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety
and aggresstion.


Did you find anything in the study that would suggest physical
discipline is NOT harmful?
Or that the findings are invalidated by the suggestions that more study
is needed? Or the standard declaration of the limitations of the study
making the findings invalid?

How many research reports have you read that didn't say, usually in
introduction or conclusion, that "more study is indicated...." or words
to that effect?

And would you believe any part of a study that did not enumerate the
limitations of the methods?

Ever seen a social science research study (experimental or survey) that
didn't so proceed?
And all survey's suffer from similar limitations. This one appeared to
have considerable scope though. Many countries and many families. Hard
to ignore such information...at least for honest people. 0:-

Good research always leaves the door open and the welcome mat out this
way to invite peer review. Heard any negative peer review so far? I'd
be interested in the arguments about this survey study. I'm sure we'll
see some lively debate in the social science field over this one. The
U.N. of course will likely check in at some point.

The only garb...s'cuse me, "reports" I've seen that fail to examine
it's own limitations are the babblings of those such as Lazerlere and
various books by Dobson and similar.

The title of this report, "Physical Discipline and Children's
Adjustment: Cultural
Normativeness as a Moderator." sets the limits, and provides the
context very well.

And it establishes that "normativeness," -- that is how much physical
discipline is accepted or not in a culture -- does not account for
negative outcomes. There is still negative outcome despite high levels
of acceptance of the practice CP.

Of course something those closer to child and family issue
professionally have known for some time.

Even where everyone beats their child and everyone agrees it's right to
do there are still undesirable social outcomes, individually and
collectively.

These who are seeing those negative outcomes first hand find such
reseach highly redundant and to smile knowingly over.

But then, the policy makers need such information to consider changes
in law or new legislation. I'm looking forward to sending some copies
to various lawmakers when we have some peer review and response to it
to consider for a more balanced presentation.

Kane

  #7  
Old February 24th 06, 11:57 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default Interesting New Research on Spanking

No, Kane, it doesn't seem that they did their homework. And then there
is the issue of understanding the homework????

LaVonne

0:- wrote:
I had presumed, LaVonne, that since all the pro spankers and advocates
for CP that post here were scrupulously honest 0;- that when they
claimed that the reason for the effectiveness
or the use of CP being based on it's appropriatness within a culture.

Seems they didn't do their homework. Surprise.

"Although race or ethnicity might be conceptualized as a proxy for
culture, and previous research has offered hypotheses about why race or
ethnicity might moderate the link between physical discipline and
children's adjustment, extant studies have not empirically examined
these possible explanations."

Darn.

Kane


  #8  
Old February 25th 06, 12:17 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
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Default Interesting New Research on Spanking

I'll respond in sections.

0:- wrote:

LaVonne:

This study
clearly shows that while the adverse effects of physical disipline were
less in countries where it was considered the norm, it was still
associated with adverse outcomes for children, including more anxiety
and aggresstion.



Did you find anything in the study that would suggest physical
discipline is NOT harmful?


No.

Or that the findings are invalidated by the suggestions that more study
is needed? Or the standard declaration of the limitations of the study
making the findings invalid?


Absolutely not.

How many research reports have you read that didn't say, usually in
introduction or conclusion, that "more study is indicated...." or words
to that effect?


Most research indicates that more study is indicated. That's because
replication adds to the strength of the results. I wonder if a study
would even been published, in any discipline, that didn't conclude with
the need for more study. I doubt it. The more empirical data, from
study after study, the more faith one can put into the study. That's
what's so wonderful about all the spanking research, that goes back
decades. Nothing that I have read, nor that anyone on this ng has has
posted, even suggests that spanking is preferrable over other methods,
or that spanking doesn't carry harm to the victim.

And would you believe any part of a study that did not enumerate the
limitations of the methods?


No.


Ever seen a social science research study (experimental or survey) that
didn't so proceed?


Not one that was published in a peer reviewed research journal.

And all survey's suffer from similar limitations. This one appeared to
have considerable scope though. Many countries and many families. Hard
to ignore such information...at least for honest people. 0:-


The scope of this study was incredibly impressive, and was
groundbreaking research.

Good research always leaves the door open and the welcome mat out this
way to invite peer review. Heard any negative peer review so far?


No.

I'd
be interested in the arguments about this survey study. I'm sure we'll
see some lively debate in the social science field over this one. The
U.N. of course will likely check in at some point.


We'll see!

The only garb...s'cuse me, "reports" I've seen that fail to examine
it's own limitations are the babblings of those such as Lazerlere and
various books by Dobson and similar.


Lazerlere has been discounted in the field of academic study, and Dobson
never entered the field. He's never researched or written anything with
a sound scientific base. Dobson writes fiction, and his books have no
references to his claims.

The title of this report, "Physical Discipline and Children's
Adjustment: Cultural
Normativeness as a Moderator." sets the limits, and provides the
context very well.


I agree

And it establishes that "normativeness," -- that is how much physical
discipline is accepted or not in a culture -- does not account for
negative outcomes. There is still negative outcome despite high levels
of acceptance of the practice CP.


This is the crux of this study, Kane. Regardless of the culturally
"normativeness", physical discipline still resulted in negative outcomes
over non-physical discipline.

Of course something those closer to child and family issue
professionally have known for some time.


Some child and family issue professionals, Kane. We have hitters is
that field as well.

Even where everyone beats their child and everyone agrees it's right to
do there are still undesirable social outcomes, individually and
collectively.


And this is what is so amazing about this research. Norms do not negate
the negative effects of physical punishment.

These who are seeing those negative outcomes first hand find such
reseach highly redundant and to smile knowingly over.

But then, the policy makers need such information to consider changes
in law or new legislation. I'm looking forward to sending some copies
to various lawmakers when we have some peer review and response to it
to consider for a more balanced presentation.


We already have "peer review" for without "peer review" the study would
never have been accepted for publication in Child Development journal.
What may now happen is a response in Child Development to the research.

LaVonne

Kane


  #9  
Old February 25th 06, 06:27 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
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Default Interesting New Research on Spanking

On Fri, 24 Feb 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:

Lazerlere has been discounted in the field of academic study, and Dobson
never entered the field.


Really, LaVonne? Since when has Dr. Lazerlere been "discounted in the
field of academic study"? Is this another one of your baseless claims?
First, you claimed that Dr. Baumrind "abandoned" Authoritative Parenting
and now you claimed this! Do you always have to lie to further your
anti-spanking agenda? What worth is an agenda when it is bases on LIES?

Doan

  #10  
Old February 26th 06, 04:45 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking,misc.kids
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Default Interesting New Research on Spanking

Doan wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006, Carlson LaVonne wrote:


Lazerlere has been discounted in the field of academic study, and Dobson
never entered the field.



Really, LaVonne? Since when has Dr. Lazerlere been "discounted in the
field of academic study"?


RRRR R R R R....yah got to be kidding. The rebuttal buried him.

In fact Durrant's summary describes YOUR common tactics, though you
aren't half as good at it as Lazerlere.

YOu may read a summary at this URL:

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&cd=10
http://tinyurl.com/nqk4n

You may read the entire comments on Lazerlere at Dr. Durrant's website
at the URL:
http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/hu..._durrant.shtml

I keep a copy of her comments and have gone over it thoroughly and you
cannot rebutt a single point she makes. She did her homework and
produced a magnificent long term study of the issue legal banning of
spanking. YOU have lied.


I keep copies of Lazerlere's doc too, and know them well. Neausiating
stuff and hardly what one could call anything more than a bundle misuse
of academic social science jargon to sound authoritative....in somewhat
the same way you pretend to understand research but can't even seperate
out elements and their meaning from each other.

You may read Lazerlere's rebuttal to Durrant's comments at the URL:
http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/rdurrunl.75.pdf

It's a monumental flop, a failure to address most of what she said that
invalidated his nonsense. She was more than polite, but she tore him a
new one.

His bull did not walk. It's lot of wordy pap and more evasions. Is he
your father? Are you sure? You should ask.

Because his crap consists of little more than repeating the same things
she showed were not true, were improper interpretations of data, dodging
of real world information of the most obvious kind, and mostly a
mountain of steaming subjective bias.

He had the temerity to once again pretend there is an issue with the
question of whether the child's bad behavior increased spankings, or
spankings increased bad behavior.

And has the gall to pretend he doesn't have a religious bias. That one
alone shows it.

No one NOT indoctrinated into "original sin" would EVER seriously
propose even the question that the child has control over the parent and
"FORCES" them to spank them more. What utter hogwash, just like YOU
droan't.

Is this another one of your baseless claims?
First, you claimed that Dr. Baumrind "abandoned" Authoritative Parenting
and now you claimed this!


She did. She was an embarassment to the profession when she gave her
unreviewed presentation at Berkeley, making professional research claims
BUT where she had stripped away and severely diluted her sample for
examining the outcomes of spanking, after removing a major proportion of
the spankers.

You, She, and I, and any other observer of "spanking" knows damn well
that much more severe "spanking" has been LEGALLY SANCTIONED just as
recently by that city councilman than she removed from her sample.

Jordan Riak has addressed it for exactly what it is...and attempt to so
dilute "spanking" that it presents as "harmless." BULL****, from a
published reseacher. How sickening.

YOu are lying, Doan. You know perfectly well that this issue has been
addressed before. In this newsgroup. You cannot handle NEW presentations
here so you are frantically jumping around trying to force the argument
in any direction possible to avoid the inevitable....yet another proof
of the bull**** you peddle being just that.

Do you always have to lie to further your
anti-spanking agenda?


LIAR!

YOU are the liar. NONE of us LIE about this issue but YOU.

What worth is an agenda when it is bases on LIES?

Zero...that why you are nothing and your agenda is nothing. You do not
have the intelligence to debate, nor the honesty to, but you do have the
sick little ****ant mindset to disrupt instead.

You are lying to disrupt, because the entire string of people that have
come here advocating spanking, AND the "experts" like Dobson and
Lazerlere have been soundly refuted and have slunk away. We only see the
sick dregs, like you and your Texas Twin.

The argument was over YEARS ago here with you pretending it wasn't and
staying ONLY to disrupt. You haven't debated ONCE. You've lied. You
attacked when asked a simple question to clarify your weird claims and
proclamations. You are a fraud.


Doan


Now give us a couple of LOL!, scream, "STUPID," and stop interupting our
laughter at how transparent you are.

It's takes NO special talent to disrupt your elders when they are trying
to have a conversation among adults.

You are a nasty spoiled little child. The product, obviously of bad
parenting. And you are proud of it.



--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
 




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