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#11
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Terrible 5's?
Ali's Daddie wrote:
1. Time Outs - She sits on the couch with her hands in her lap. She is allowed to watch tv, but is not allowed to talk or cry or play. You dont let her cry???? Why on earth not?? I dont often jump on someone in a judgemental fashion but I think that is a truely cruel thing to do to a child. You are teaching her to turn her emotions inwards, not good now and not good when she is an adult. A jolly good way of giving her stress related illnesses as an adult. Shes not a vulcan, shes a human child. Sarah H |
#12
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Terrible 5's?/General Follow up
"Stephanie and Tim" I guess I would find what she DOES care about and make sure she gets plenty of that. And I would look at why she is doing what she is doing, and try to achieve solutions from that. She likes to play in the water... Make sure she gets as much playing in the water as she wants, no door locking required. Make sure she gets messy play time, if that is what she needs. Perhaps a sand and water table in a safe place to make a mess? Also, make sure she is not acting up to get attention because she is not getting enough positive attention. Kids need attention. If they do not get it in positive ways; reading together, craft time together, playground where you are playing with them, they will demand it in nonpositive ways... actin out in ways they know will get a heavy hand from you. Also, kids need PARENTAL attention. So even if they are getting gobs with a nanny or at a daycare, they still need gobs from Mom and Dad. It is hard to know your situation from your post, I am guessing at a few things to look at. Also, at the age of 3, I have next to never punished my son. (I say next to never because I suspect I have done it and cannot remember. Never say "never.") Punishment is highly over rated as a motivator for permanent change. Just like any problme you are trying to solve, you have to understand the underlying cause of the problem before you can determine the solution. WHY is your dd pitching the glitter on the floor? If it is because she likes texture play then punushing her will do no good. Providing playtime with different textures will do permanent good. If she is doing it because she has an independant spirit, then punishing will do no good unless you show her an appropriate way to do what she wants for herself, like asking Mom if she can have craft time... KNow what I mean? My oldest does get time to play with water/crafts, pretty much anything she wants, as long as she asks and usually when my middle DD is at school. I believe she gets enough positive attention from me, but everyone can use more, right? So I'll try that. My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Even if she would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I ask her to clean up she throws a tantrum. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#13
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Terrible 5's?/General Follow up
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:00:55 -0800, "Denise"
wrote: My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Even if she would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I ask her to clean up she throws a tantrum. Think about what you have taught her with punishment. There are three outcomes when children are punished (particularly when they are punished frequently) 1. The child becomes a *rebel* without a cause. S/he doesn't know how to distinguish when it is a good idea to obey authority, so s/he rebels against all authority. S/he becomes defiant and does what s/he wishes to do regardless of what the authority may do to him or her. This is the child at risk of death or severe injury as punishment escalates into torture and abuse. 2. The child becomes submissive. S/he obeys without question whenever an authority gives him or her a rule to obey. In this case, the parents may think they have succeeded in creating a *good child,* but what has been done is to break the child's spirit. This child is at risk of becoming a drone and of obeying leaders who insist that s/he should harm others. 3. The child becomes sneaky. S/he does what s/he wants to do when s/he believes that you will not find out what s/he has done. In this case, the child remains self-centered and will do whatever crime is satisfying as long as s/he believes that no one will catch him or her. This is not easy to change once the pattern has been set, but imho, you would be wise to attempt a total change. If you can, enroll in a Parent Effectiveness Training class and do the homework you need to change the destructive pattern you have set before your child is older. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#14
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Terrible 5's?/General Follow up
"toto" wrote in message ... On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:00:55 -0800, "Denise" wrote: My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Even if she would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I ask her to clean up she throws a tantrum. Think about what you have taught her with punishment. There are three outcomes when children are punished (particularly when they are punished frequently) 1. The child becomes a *rebel* without a cause. S/he doesn't know how to distinguish when it is a good idea to obey authority, so s/he rebels against all authority. S/he becomes defiant and does what s/he wishes to do regardless of what the authority may do to him or her. This is the child at risk of death or severe injury as punishment escalates into torture and abuse. 2. The child becomes submissive. S/he obeys without question whenever an authority gives him or her a rule to obey. In this case, the parents may think they have succeeded in creating a *good child,* but what has been done is to break the child's spirit. This child is at risk of becoming a drone and of obeying leaders who insist that s/he should harm others. 3. The child becomes sneaky. S/he does what s/he wants to do when s/he believes that you will not find out what s/he has done. In this case, the child remains self-centered and will do whatever crime is satisfying as long as s/he believes that no one will catch him or her. This is not easy to change once the pattern has been set, but imho, you would be wise to attempt a total change. If you can, enroll in a Parent Effectiveness Training class and do the homework you need to change the destructive pattern you have set before your child is older. Egads! Time outs are destructive behavior? We're talking about a child who has been spanked, maybe 2 times in her life, and who's time outs consist of 4 minutes on her bed with her hands folded on her lap. I could understand if I was beating her every time she did something I didn't approve of, but that's hardly the case. I'm hoping the sneakiness is just a phase, its hardly something I have caused by "breaking her spirit." -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#15
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Terrible 5's?/General Follow up
"Denise" wrote in message ... "Stephanie and Tim" I guess I would find what she DOES care about and make sure she gets plenty of that. And I would look at why she is doing what she is doing, and try to achieve solutions from that. She likes to play in the water... Make sure she gets as much playing in the water as she wants, no door locking required. Make sure she gets messy play time, if that is what she needs. Perhaps a sand and water table in a safe place to make a mess? Also, make sure she is not acting up to get attention because she is not getting enough positive attention. Kids need attention. If they do not get it in positive ways; reading together, craft time together, playground where you are playing with them, they will demand it in nonpositive ways... actin out in ways they know will get a heavy hand from you. Also, kids need PARENTAL attention. So even if they are getting gobs with a nanny or at a daycare, they still need gobs from Mom and Dad. It is hard to know your situation from your post, I am guessing at a few things to look at. Also, at the age of 3, I have next to never punished my son. (I say next to never because I suspect I have done it and cannot remember. Never say "never.") Punishment is highly over rated as a motivator for permanent change. Just like any problme you are trying to solve, you have to understand the underlying cause of the problem before you can determine the solution. WHY is your dd pitching the glitter on the floor? If it is because she likes texture play then punushing her will do no good. Providing playtime with different textures will do permanent good. If she is doing it because she has an independant spirit, then punishing will do no good unless you show her an appropriate way to do what she wants for herself, like asking Mom if she can have craft time... KNow what I mean? My oldest does get time to play with water/crafts, pretty much anything she wants, as long as she asks and usually when my middle DD is at school. I believe she gets enough positive attention from me, but everyone can use more, right? So I'll try that. My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Even if she would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I ask her to clean up she throws a tantrum. From your post, I am having a hard time envisioning the scene from your child's point of view. You say she is becoming "sneaky." If, from HER perspective, she is indeed sneaking, then it must be because she cannot get what she wants through you. She has to go around you. Now don't get me wrong, kids do not need to have all wants gratified immediately with a parent a wild yesman. But what they need is consistent expectations about how and when their wants will be satisfied and a clear understanding, with consistency, of what will not ever be allowed and why. Very very simple why. Take DH for example. He is a bit of a NO guy. Everything is no this and don't that. DS is not terribly cooperative around him. Take this example, don't draw on the walls. Period. Compare that to Honey, please don't draw on the walls, would you like a piece of paper? (Yes) Can you get it yourself or do you need help to get it? Since, over time, he has come to expect that I will help him get what he wants, he does not pitch a fit when I tell him truly he cannot do something. So I can see the problems that YOU are having. I am not understanding what problem SHE is having. WHY did she block the door? If I had an answer to that, I could possibly recommend a solution. And if you do not know why, then you probably ought to ask her when she does something why she did it. Just some thoughts. S |
#16
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Terrible 5's?/General Follow up
"Denise" wrote in message ... "toto" wrote in message ... On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:00:55 -0800, "Denise" wrote: My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Even if she would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I ask her to clean up she throws a tantrum. Think about what you have taught her with punishment. There are three outcomes when children are punished (particularly when they are punished frequently) 1. The child becomes a *rebel* without a cause. S/he doesn't know how to distinguish when it is a good idea to obey authority, so s/he rebels against all authority. S/he becomes defiant and does what s/he wishes to do regardless of what the authority may do to him or her. This is the child at risk of death or severe injury as punishment escalates into torture and abuse. 2. The child becomes submissive. S/he obeys without question whenever an authority gives him or her a rule to obey. In this case, the parents may think they have succeeded in creating a *good child,* but what has been done is to break the child's spirit. This child is at risk of becoming a drone and of obeying leaders who insist that s/he should harm others. 3. The child becomes sneaky. S/he does what s/he wants to do when s/he believes that you will not find out what s/he has done. In this case, the child remains self-centered and will do whatever crime is satisfying as long as s/he believes that no one will catch him or her. This is not easy to change once the pattern has been set, but imho, you would be wise to attempt a total change. If you can, enroll in a Parent Effectiveness Training class and do the homework you need to change the destructive pattern you have set before your child is older. Egads! Time outs are destructive behavior? We're talking about a child who has been spanked, maybe 2 times in her life, and who's time outs consist of 4 minutes on her bed with her hands folded on her lap. I could understand if I was beating her every time she did something I didn't approve of, but that's hardly the case. I'm hoping the sneakiness is just a phase, its hardly something I have caused by "breaking her spirit." I did not read Dorothy's post entirely. But many folks perceive that time outs should not be used for punishment but for recollecting one's composure. Some folks, myself included when my ears are not steaming, do not think that there is much room, if any, for teaching a child. Using one time out will not break anyone's spirit. But over time, using only or mostly punitive techniques will fail to teach good life lessons and may eventually break a child's spirit. Especially if they get punished enough to view themselves as a bad kid. I can recommed a book called "Positive Discipline." They come in different ages. I have the one for preschoolers. I like it. S -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#17
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Terrible 5's?/General Follow up
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:08:06 GMT, "Stephanie and Tim"
wrote: Take DH for example. He is a bit of a NO guy. Everything is no this and don't that. DS is not terribly cooperative around him. Take this example, don't draw on the walls. Period. Compare that to Honey, please don't draw on the walls, would you like a piece of paper? (Yes) Can you get it yourself or do you need help to get it? Since, over time, he has come to expect that I will help him get what he wants, he does not pitch a fit when I tell him truly he cannot do something. It seems to work well for kids if you look at their need (in this case the need to draw) and fulfill it in some acceptable way. Most kids want to cooperate with you. In our preschool, we also find that the more choices we allow, the better kids are at obeying when we must say no. And the more positive words we use, the easier it is for them to accept those few negatives we have to use. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#18
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Terrible 5's?/General Follow up
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:11:34 GMT, "Stephanie and Tim"
wrote: "Denise" wrote in message ... "toto" wrote in message ... On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:00:55 -0800, "Denise" wrote: My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Btw, this isn't sneaky. It may be rebellious, but how you can call it sneaky, I don't know since it is quite obvious that the parent can see what was being done. Even if she would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I ask her to clean up she throws a tantrum. Btw, do you ask her to clean up or do you *tell* her. There is a big difference. If you do want her to help clean up, try making it fun. Also, get organized to make it easier. Put labels on the boxes or shelves. Don't have so many toys that it is impossible to clean because it is overwhelming. Try putting on a CD of favorite music and say *I bet we can clean up before the music is done.* Or say *I'll get all the blue toys, can you get all the red ones?* Or say *I can get all the blocks while you get all the dolls.* Think about what you have taught her with punishment. There are three outcomes when children are punished (particularly when they are punished frequently) 1. The child becomes a *rebel* without a cause. S/he doesn't know how to distinguish when it is a good idea to obey authority, so s/he rebels against all authority. S/he becomes defiant and does what s/he wishes to do regardless of what the authority may do to him or her. This is the child at risk of death or severe injury as punishment escalates into torture and abuse. 2. The child becomes submissive. S/he obeys without question whenever an authority gives him or her a rule to obey. In this case, the parents may think they have succeeded in creating a *good child,* but what has been done is to break the child's spirit. This child is at risk of becoming a drone and of obeying leaders who insist that s/he should harm others. 3. The child becomes sneaky. S/he does what s/he wants to do when s/he believes that you will not find out what s/he has done. In this case, the child remains self-centered and will do whatever crime is satisfying as long as s/he believes that no one will catch him or her. This is not easy to change once the pattern has been set, but imho, you would be wise to attempt a total change. If you can, enroll in a Parent Effectiveness Training class and do the homework you need to change the destructive pattern you have set before your child is older. Egads! Time outs are destructive behavior? We're talking about a child who has been spanked, maybe 2 times in her life, and who's time outs consist of 4 minutes on her bed with her hands folded on her lap. In many cases, children prefer a spanking to sitting still for 4 minutes. Aside from that, time outs used as punishment don't teach anything at all. You may think s/he is learning to think about what she did wrong, but it is more likely she is thinking about how much she resents your control or daydreaming about something entirely different. I could understand if I was beating her every time she did something I didn't approve of, but that's hardly the case. I'm hoping the sneakiness is just a phase, its hardly something I have caused by "breaking her spirit." You mistake the idea. You haven't broken her spirit, but you have caused the rebelliousness because you focus on the negative. She needs positive attention and positive discipline. It sounds to me like she wants control of her own life and that you are trying too hard to control her behavior. Give her positive alternatives. Say yes MUCH more than you say no. Give her choices whenever you can. I did not read Dorothy's post entirely. But many folks perceive that time outs should not be used for punishment but for recollecting one's composure. Time-outs when one needs to calm down are not the same as time-outs used to punish a child for *misbehavior.* And time-outs should be modeled by the adult when s/he needs to regain composure after being angry about things. Some folks, myself included when my ears are not steaming, do not think that there is much room, if any, for teaching a child. Agreed. You cannot teach when *you* are angry. You also cannot teach a child who is angry because the focus is on the emotion to the exclusion of any lesson that needs to be learned. Using one time out will not break anyone's spirit. But over time, using only or mostly punitive techniques will fail to teach good life lessons and may eventually break a child's spirit. Everything mentioned in the OP's post focused on the negative and on punishment. If you continue to focus this way you are likely to create a rebel or a drone or a sneaky person. Especially if they get punished enough to view themselves as a bad kid. I can recommed a book called "Positive Discipline." They come in different ages. I have the one for preschoolers. I like it. S I agree that those are good books. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#19
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Terrible 5's?/General Follow up
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:08:14 -0600, toto
wrote: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:08:06 GMT, "Stephanie and Tim" wrote: Take DH for example. He is a bit of a NO guy. Everything is no this and don't that. DS is not terribly cooperative around him. Take this example, don't draw on the walls. Period. Compare that to Honey, please don't draw on the walls, would you like a piece of paper? (Yes) Can you get it yourself or do you need help to get it? Since, over time, he has come to expect that I will help him get what he wants, he does not pitch a fit when I tell him truly he cannot do something. It seems to work well for kids if you look at their need (in this case the need to draw) and fulfill it in some acceptable way. Most kids want to cooperate with you. This strategy worked perfectly for my eldest, but not at all for my youngest. She seems to have a *need* to draw only in places where she isn't supposed to. She still draws on herself occasionally, and on the walls, carpets and furniture if we leave pens out for too long (she's nearing 4). She thinks the whole thing is hilarious however I say *draw on paper!* and seems to feel that cooperating would be just too stuffy and boring. --Lisabell |
#20
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Terrible 5's?/General Follow up
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:47:33 +0200, LisaBell
wrote: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:08:14 -0600, toto wrote: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:08:06 GMT, "Stephanie and Tim" wrote: Take DH for example. He is a bit of a NO guy. Everything is no this and don't that. DS is not terribly cooperative around him. Take this example, don't draw on the walls. Period. Compare that to Honey, please don't draw on the walls, would you like a piece of paper? (Yes) Can you get it yourself or do you need help to get it? Since, over time, he has come to expect that I will help him get what he wants, he does not pitch a fit when I tell him truly he cannot do something. It seems to work well for kids if you look at their need (in this case the need to draw) and fulfill it in some acceptable way. Most kids want to cooperate with you. This strategy worked perfectly for my eldest, but not at all for my youngest. She seems to have a *need* to draw only in places where she isn't supposed to. She still draws on herself occasionally, and on the walls, carpets and furniture if we leave pens out for too long (she's nearing 4). She thinks the whole thing is hilarious however I say *draw on paper!* and seems to feel that cooperating would be just too stuffy and boring. Seems to me she is getting something else out of the interaction then and you need to find out what it is. Perhaps she needs something messier (try paint or playdough or let her mess with shaving cream on the table or paint with pudding) Or needs to be standing up (get an easel?) Try some different artistic activities that may keep her more interested? But supervise closely. It may be that you cannot leave her alone with drawing materials yet. Four is pretty young for that actually since the temptations are many to see what might happen if you draw on other surfaces. You might try making rubbings (sandpaper under the paper gives a nice texture) or using finger paints on smooth surfaces or getting some wallpaper sample books she can use to draw on. Perhaps she sees it as her *job* not to cooperate because her older sibling does that well and she is defining her place in the family based on *not* being like that sibling. My dd would never do much with math because her brother was so good at it and my ds never did art because that was his sister's thing. --Lisabell -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
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