what are opitions in breach of court ordered visitation in Florida

"Illiana via FamilyKB.com" u38194@uwe wrote in message
news:7b1be45b3b0a2@uwe...
| ralph wrote:
| Hello
| I am dealing with a breach of contract (court order) of child
| visitation and looking for some advice based on Florida laws
| 1. There is a Broward county court order schedule of visitation
| (Broward county = Ft. Lauderdale, Fl)
|
| 2. Mother of daughter has repeat violated the court order visitation
| requiring that I call the police (call to police recorded by 911 non
| emergency and case numbers)
|
| 3. I work out of the country and schedule my trips back to States
| for visitation with my daughter and/or medical
|
| 4. Mother lives in Orlando and I have arrangements for family friend
| to pick up daughter (some costs)
|
| 5. Mother emailed with notice that she plans to violate visitation
| over the Thanksgiving break i.e. take my daughter on a trip against
| the court order and my wishes
| "I told you before that I was having JAS for Thanksgiving and that is
| what I intend to do" quote from mother's email
| .
| 6. Mother stated in email that daughter would rather be with her
| over Thanksgiving contrary to daughter's wishes
| "Remember, we are supposed to be doing things which is in
| the best interest of JAS. I asked her if she rather be with you for
| Thanksgiving or go with me as planned - she choose me." Quote from
| mother's email
|
| My questions are the following
| 1. What are my legal options to prevent the mother to take the action?
|
| 2. If mother does take the action, what are my options?
|
| 3. Can I sue her in small claims for the cost, aggravation and mental
| stress of her action of breaking a contract?
|
| 4. Due to some medical expenses, budget is tight. (car vs. bike, I
| lost)
|
| Regards and thank you in advance
| Ralph
| Your friend doesn't have the court order for visitation, you do.
| When YOU go to get your daughter for the holiday weekend, and if she took
her
| and nobody is there, call the police, and report a kidnapping.

Only if he wants to get laughed at

|Bring your
| court order with you so the police can see it.

So it can be ignored along with his claim

|Kidnap victims are always a
| top priorityin the media, and will bring attention to you, your daughter,
and
| your ex. No court order should be ignored.


But they are all the time.

| When they find your wife, she will have to go through a bunch of bull****,
| such as getting arrested for kidnapping (which will be reduced to
custodial
| interference) then you can file contempt with the judge.

Were you born clueless, or have you always just been that way?


|
| --
| Message posted via http://www.familykb.com
|

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 1:39 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...





On Nov 15, 12:34 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 12:03 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 11:27 am, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 12, 12:48 am, ralph wrote:
Hello
I am dealing with a breach of contract (court order) of
child
visitation and looking for some advice based on Florida laws
1. There is a Broward county court order schedule of
visitation
(Broward county = Ft. Lauderdale, Fl)

2. Mother of daughter has repeat violated the court order
visitation
requiring that I call the police (call to police recorded by
911 non
emergency and case numbers)

3. I work out of the country and schedule my trips back to
States
for visitation with my daughter and/or medical

4. Mother lives in Orlando and I have arrangements for
family
friend
to pick up daughter (some costs)

5. Mother emailed with notice that she plans to violate
visitation
over the Thanksgiving break i.e. take my daughter on a trip
against
the court order and my wishes
"I told you before that I was having JAS for Thanksgiving and
that is
what I intend to do" quote from mother's email
.
6. Mother stated in email that daughter would rather be
with her
over Thanksgiving contrary to daughter's wishes
"Remember, we are supposed to be doing things
which is
in
the best interest of JAS. I asked her if she rather be with
you for
Thanksgiving or go with me as planned - she choose me." Quote
from
mother's email

My questions are the following
1. What are my legal options to prevent the mother to take
the
action?

2. If mother does take the action, what are my options?

3. Can I sue her in small claims for the cost,
aggravation and
mental
stress of her action of breaking a contract?

4. Due to some medical expenses, budget is tight. (car
vs. bike,
I
lost)

Regards and thank you in advance
Ralph

Ralph,

This is classic custodial interference. It is a very common
tactic
used by vindictive CPs to wear down good NCPs like you until
you just
give up and go away. Once she has succeeded in making you
"abandon"
your daughter, she can then file for more child support based
on her
increase in custodial timeshare. If your ex is like mine,
during the
time your daughter is deprived of your influence, she will be
programmed into believing you are a bad person. This is
called
Parental Alienation Syndrome. The quotes from your ex about
your
daughter "choosing" to be with her are tell-tale PAS flags and
are all
too familiar. The single best preventative/antidote to PAS is
for
your daughter to spend TIME with you. Nobody can make that
happen,
except you. Your daughter is depending you to make it happen,
every
time.

Yadda yadda . Look again at his situation.

To have time with his daughter, and even move to actually rearing
her half
the
time himself, he needs to fix his situation item #3.

Banty

Banty,

Look again at what I posted. I addressed the problems his
out-of-
country job would pose to him, and recommended he take a leave or
find
another job nearer his daughter.

OK, I sawt that, but what would be better would be a *permanent*
thing.
Father.
Close to kids. Good.

Bnaty

Agreed Banty -- it's hard to parent remotely, even when two parents
are cooperating. One of the most important decisions I made early
on
was to always live near my daughter, no matter where my ex moved
her.
She moved her across country twice, and twice I picked up and moved
to
live near her.

Huge kudos to you!

Was there no way to stop that?\

Nope. The Burgess decision had just come down and if I had decided to
fight the move, I would almost certainly have lost under statute, not
to mention baby daughter was still in her "tender years," and that
doctrine was still in force in the mid-90s. Now that LaMusga is
prevailing precedent in CA, I will have a good shot at stopping her if
she tries it again.

Well, absolutely "tender years" sucked, men can raise babies and little
kids
too.

Let me look at Burgess and LaMusga - this is just the thing I'm trying to
find
out about. Great thanks for mentioning the court cases. I could search
court
cases, but I wouldnt' know which the important ones are. Do you happen to
have
any links? If CP's can up and move with their kids at will, that most
definately goes into my "real serious valid greivance" column under NCP.

A search on "move-away" with either of those two case names should
yield many hits.


I'm having a heck of time getting info on CS on the web - the Wikipedia
article
is poor, and the usual searches gets me too many blogs and advocacy
sites. When
I look for state governmnet or US government sites, I get the white
papers and
stuff Bob points to. Which don't go to what the current guidelines
actually
are.





But with a vindictive/alienating CP, living near his daughter can
never be, as you call it, a "permanent" thing for Ralph, unless he's
willing to make some huge sacrifices. The CP-ex can pick up and
move
the child far way at any time (not sure about Florida's move-away
laws
-- but usually the CP can move the kid at will).

Not so much in NY.

BTW, not that this CP is a peach (more like a turd), but she couldn't
be off
globetrotting on a wunnerful job even if she wanted to and was
qualified.
She's
got kids to take care of. Just to keep that in mind.

Huh? Based on the original post, I don't think Ralph is doing
anything to disrupt her ex's career. But that's what her actions are
doing to him.

But her career is much different than one that can happen sans kids,
believe me.
I'm a PhD engineer with a kid. It's especially so for people with less
education. He doesnt' have the limitation of needing to care for kids.


Yes, he does. He has an duty/right to care for the kid (I think it's
one) during his custody time. He needs to build his work schedule
around that, and he probably already has. And now she's messing with
it.

Sure. But how many days out of the month is that. How many full weeks in
the
year? Do you think *she* could get the travelling job and work around her
schedule - no!

Sure she could. All she would have to do is agree to shared custody. I
know a couple (exes) who both travel for work, and they have worked it
out--with the help of the grandmas occassionally. It CAN be done. But
there has to be cooperation (and joint custody) to make it work.


If you are concerned with drumming up sympathy for the CP because
she's a great childcare burden, then I suggest she offer Ralph 50/50
time with the little girl, and let them both get on with their careers
and lives.

I'm all for that! Ralph has get a job close, they have 50-50 physical
custody,
and they both make some compromises.


But, yeah, her actions are ruining things. Let them ruin it for her!





This is just one more of the inequities faced by NCPs that are
seldom
recognized or acknowledged by the courts or the public -- the CP can
just pick up and move the child at will -- and it falls on the NCP
to
uproot, sell the house, quit the job, derail the career, etc., all
at
the whim of the CP. It's either follow your child around the
country,
or "abandon" them. Fair? No. But Ralph needs to know that this is
the way it is and work within the system.

That depends on the state, I know CPs near me who think they are
"stuck", and
I
dont' have a lot of sympathy with that attitude, either!

Best thing: don't become the NCP

Easier said than done in this day of no-fault divorce and automatic-
mother-custody. But this is actually good advice -- fathers out there
who are just now divorcing or separating need to know to immediately
fire any attorney who suggests they just accept the standard "every
other weekend" visitation package and don't put up a fight for equal
parenting. I wish I had been better informed when I got sucked into
this system, because once you agree to become the "visitor," it's
extremely difficult to get promoted to "parent."

It's not so automatic mother at least around here. Mothers *do* get
custody
most often, but that is because father moves on!

That is B.S. The Sanford Braver study found that mothers get custody
87% of the time, and I don't think it was because 87 out of 100
fathers just said, "you take the kids, I'm movin' on! How much child
support should I send?" Check out "Taken Into Custody," new book by
Stephen Baskerville for the REAL reasons behind default Mommy custody.

Go into it here; don't send me off to some advocacy book, frankly I don't
trust
that sort of source. Tell me your "REAL reasons". Becasue IME, when the
father
takes up the task, he has at least part physical custody.

Ah, Banty, that is one ofthe problems. You have not *experienced* the
system. The stated reasons for the system are not bad, but the
implementation of the system can not be called even remotely fair. And you
don't know it until you or a close loved on experience it personally. It's
like going through the looking glass--standing on the outside, you cannot
begin to imagine what is in there. And when somebody tells you , you think
they must be exaggerating.


I know several who
made moves in the other direction - settling right away for visitation (so
he
can move on to a new relationship less encumbered), going off to another
job in
another state, even one I described in another thread who I *thought*
would be
just the guy to step up, but he settled for joint legal custody only, and
rented
a house just *outside* his kids' school district, first complaning that he
won't
get full custody, then saying he 'needed time apart'. I mean - what's
*with
that?*. Step up!

How? How do you step up? Get a lawyer to hlpe? On top of CS, that is an
expense that many cannot bear. I have a friend who has spent almost $50,000
to keep shared custody of his daughter. That's $50.000 that will never be
spent on the child. Is that the kind of stepping up you mean?

In article , teachrmama says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 1:39 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...





On Nov 15, 12:34 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 12:03 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 11:27 am, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 12, 12:48 am, ralph wrote:
Hello
I am dealing with a breach of contract (court order) of
child
visitation and looking for some advice based on Florida laws
1. There is a Broward county court order schedule of
visitation
(Broward county = Ft. Lauderdale, Fl)

2. Mother of daughter has repeat violated the court order
visitation
requiring that I call the police (call to police recorded by
911 non
emergency and case numbers)

3. I work out of the country and schedule my trips back to
States
for visitation with my daughter and/or medical

4. Mother lives in Orlando and I have arrangements for
family
friend
to pick up daughter (some costs)

5. Mother emailed with notice that she plans to violate
visitation
over the Thanksgiving break i.e. take my daughter on a trip
against
the court order and my wishes
"I told you before that I was having JAS for Thanksgiving and
that is
what I intend to do" quote from mother's email
.
6. Mother stated in email that daughter would rather be
with her
over Thanksgiving contrary to daughter's wishes
"Remember, we are supposed to be doing things
which is
in
the best interest of JAS. I asked her if she rather be with
you for
Thanksgiving or go with me as planned - she choose me." Quote
from
mother's email

My questions are the following
1. What are my legal options to prevent the mother to take
the
action?

2. If mother does take the action, what are my options?

3. Can I sue her in small claims for the cost,
aggravation and
mental
stress of her action of breaking a contract?

4. Due to some medical expenses, budget is tight. (car
vs. bike,
I
lost)

Regards and thank you in advance
Ralph

Ralph,

This is classic custodial interference. It is a very common
tactic
used by vindictive CPs to wear down good NCPs like you until
you just
give up and go away. Once she has succeeded in making you
"abandon"
your daughter, she can then file for more child support based
on her
increase in custodial timeshare. If your ex is like mine,
during the
time your daughter is deprived of your influence, she will be
programmed into believing you are a bad person. This is
called
Parental Alienation Syndrome. The quotes from your ex about
your
daughter "choosing" to be with her are tell-tale PAS flags and
are all
too familiar. The single best preventative/antidote to PAS is
for
your daughter to spend TIME with you. Nobody can make that
happen,
except you. Your daughter is depending you to make it happen,
every
time.

Yadda yadda . Look again at his situation.

To have time with his daughter, and even move to actually rearing
her half
the
time himself, he needs to fix his situation item #3.

Banty

Banty,

Look again at what I posted. I addressed the problems his
out-of-
country job would pose to him, and recommended he take a leave or
find
another job nearer his daughter.

OK, I sawt that, but what would be better would be a *permanent*
thing.
Father.
Close to kids. Good.

Bnaty

Agreed Banty -- it's hard to parent remotely, even when two parents
are cooperating. One of the most important decisions I made early
on
was to always live near my daughter, no matter where my ex moved
her.
She moved her across country twice, and twice I picked up and moved
to
live near her.

Huge kudos to you!

Was there no way to stop that?\

Nope. The Burgess decision had just come down and if I had decided to
fight the move, I would almost certainly have lost under statute, not
to mention baby daughter was still in her "tender years," and that
doctrine was still in force in the mid-90s. Now that LaMusga is
prevailing precedent in CA, I will have a good shot at stopping her if
she tries it again.

Well, absolutely "tender years" sucked, men can raise babies and little
kids
too.

Let me look at Burgess and LaMusga - this is just the thing I'm trying to
find
out about. Great thanks for mentioning the court cases. I could search
court
cases, but I wouldnt' know which the important ones are. Do you happen to
have
any links? If CP's can up and move with their kids at will, that most
definately goes into my "real serious valid greivance" column under NCP.

A search on "move-away" with either of those two case names should
yield many hits.


I'm having a heck of time getting info on CS on the web - the Wikipedia
article
is poor, and the usual searches gets me too many blogs and advocacy
sites. When
I look for state governmnet or US government sites, I get the white
papers and
stuff Bob points to. Which don't go to what the current guidelines
actually
are.





But with a vindictive/alienating CP, living near his daughter can
never be, as you call it, a "permanent" thing for Ralph, unless he's
willing to make some huge sacrifices. The CP-ex can pick up and
move
the child far way at any time (not sure about Florida's move-away
laws
-- but usually the CP can move the kid at will).

Not so much in NY.

BTW, not that this CP is a peach (more like a turd), but she couldn't
be off
globetrotting on a wunnerful job even if she wanted to and was
qualified.
She's
got kids to take care of. Just to keep that in mind.

Huh? Based on the original post, I don't think Ralph is doing
anything to disrupt her ex's career. But that's what her actions are
doing to him.

But her career is much different than one that can happen sans kids,
believe me.
I'm a PhD engineer with a kid. It's especially so for people with less
education. He doesnt' have the limitation of needing to care for kids.


Yes, he does. He has an duty/right to care for the kid (I think it's
one) during his custody time. He needs to build his work schedule
around that, and he probably already has. And now she's messing with
it.

Sure. But how many days out of the month is that. How many full weeks in
the
year? Do you think *she* could get the travelling job and work around her
schedule - no!

Sure she could. All she would have to do is agree to shared custody. I
know a couple (exes) who both travel for work, and they have worked it
out--with the help of the grandmas occassionally. It CAN be done. But
there has to be cooperation (and joint custody) to make it work.


If you are concerned with drumming up sympathy for the CP because
she's a great childcare burden, then I suggest she offer Ralph 50/50
time with the little girl, and let them both get on with their careers
and lives.

I'm all for that! Ralph has get a job close, they have 50-50 physical
custody,
and they both make some compromises.


But, yeah, her actions are ruining things. Let them ruin it for her!





This is just one more of the inequities faced by NCPs that are
seldom
recognized or acknowledged by the courts or the public -- the CP can
just pick up and move the child at will -- and it falls on the NCP
to
uproot, sell the house, quit the job, derail the career, etc., all
at
the whim of the CP. It's either follow your child around the
country,
or "abandon" them. Fair? No. But Ralph needs to know that this is
the way it is and work within the system.

That depends on the state, I know CPs near me who think they are
"stuck", and
I
dont' have a lot of sympathy with that attitude, either!

Best thing: don't become the NCP

Easier said than done in this day of no-fault divorce and automatic-
mother-custody. But this is actually good advice -- fathers out there
who are just now divorcing or separating need to know to immediately
fire any attorney who suggests they just accept the standard "every
other weekend" visitation package and don't put up a fight for equal
parenting. I wish I had been better informed when I got sucked into
this system, because once you agree to become the "visitor," it's
extremely difficult to get promoted to "parent."

It's not so automatic mother at least around here. Mothers *do* get
custody
most often, but that is because father moves on!

That is B.S. The Sanford Braver study found that mothers get custody
87% of the time, and I don't think it was because 87 out of 100
fathers just said, "you take the kids, I'm movin' on! How much child
support should I send?" Check out "Taken Into Custody," new book by
Stephen Baskerville for the REAL reasons behind default Mommy custody.

Go into it here; don't send me off to some advocacy book, frankly I don't
trust
that sort of source. Tell me your "REAL reasons". Becasue IME, when the
father
takes up the task, he has at least part physical custody.

Ah, Banty, that is one ofthe problems. You have not *experienced* the
system. The stated reasons for the system are not bad, but the
implementation of the system can not be called even remotely fair. And you
don't know it until you or a close loved on experience it personally. It's
like going through the looking glass--standing on the outside, you cannot
begin to imagine what is in there. And when somebody tells you , you think
they must be exaggerating.


I know several who
made moves in the other direction - settling right away for visitation (so
he
can move on to a new relationship less encumbered), going off to another
job in
another state, even one I described in another thread who I *thought*
would be
just the guy to step up, but he settled for joint legal custody only, and
rented
a house just *outside* his kids' school district, first complaning that he
won't
get full custody, then saying he 'needed time apart'. I mean - what's
*with
that?*. Step up!

How? How do you step up? Get a lawyer to hlpe? On top of CS, that is an
expense that many cannot bear. I have a friend who has spent almost $50,000
to keep shared custody of his daughter. That's $50.000 that will never be
spent on the child. Is that the kind of stepping up you mean?

No - I'm talking about *before* CS. CS and being an NCP is something to be
avoided. (I'm not saying things shoudl be unfair to the NCP to make them avoid
them, understand.)

I'm talking about around the time of the divorce or breakup or birth of a child.
"Stepping up" is most of all sticking around. The examples I know, who got a
two bedroom apartment in the same school system, went to our local Child Care
Resource and Referral center and could show they knew of openings and had
visited some places (there's paperwork to boot for them to show that!), and
things like making changes at work if necessary - GOT at least joint physical
custody.

That's what I mean by stepping up. Think - if *you* had a new baby coming, or
you were about to break up, which would be the thoughts in your mind: "gosh,
how am I going to provide for these kids, gosh, I need to move somewhere cheaper
but with room for them, OK, I need to talk to my employer, oh no, I'm going to
need childcare to cover three days a week...". Or would you be thinking "gosh
this situation is awful where do I go maybe I can go to my best friend from
college they have a finished basement...".

Therein is the measure of who is going to successfuly truly parent.

Banty

--
[Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have
custody of such child]
wrote in message
...
On Nov 12, 12:48 am, ralph wrote:
Hello
I am dealing with a breach of contract (court order) of child
visitation and looking for some advice based on Florida laws
1. There is a Broward county court order schedule of visitation
(Broward county = Ft. Lauderdale, Fl)

2. Mother of daughter has repeat violated the court order visitation
requiring that I call the police (call to police recorded by 911 non
emergency and case numbers)

3. I work out of the country and schedule my trips back to States
for visitation with my daughter and/or medical

4. Mother lives in Orlando and I have arrangements for family friend
to pick up daughter (some costs)

5. Mother emailed with notice that she plans to violate visitation
over the Thanksgiving break i.e. take my daughter on a trip against
the court order and my wishes
"I told you before that I was having JAS for Thanksgiving and that is
what I intend to do" quote from mother's email
.
6. Mother stated in email that daughter would rather be with her
over Thanksgiving contrary to daughter's wishes
"Remember, we are supposed to be doing things which is in
the best interest of JAS. I asked her if she rather be with you for
Thanksgiving or go with me as planned - she choose me." Quote from
mother's email

My questions are the following
1. What are my legal options to prevent the mother to take the
action?

2. If mother does take the action, what are my options?

3. Can I sue her in small claims for the cost, aggravation and
mental
stress of her action of breaking a contract?

4. Due to some medical expenses, budget is tight. (car vs. bike, I
lost)

Regards and thank you in advance
Ralph

Ralph,

This is classic custodial interference. It is a very common tactic
used by vindictive CPs to wear down good NCPs like you until you just
give up and go away. Once she has succeeded in making you "abandon"
your daughter, she can then file for more child support based on her
increase in custodial timeshare. If your ex is like mine, during the
time your daughter is deprived of your influence, she will be
programmed into believing you are a bad person. This is called
Parental Alienation Syndrome. The quotes from your ex about your
daughter "choosing" to be with her are tell-tale PAS flags and are all
too familiar. The single best preventative/antidote to PAS is for
your daughter to spend TIME with you. Nobody can make that happen,
except you. Your daughter is depending you to make it happen, every
time.

You are in a particularly difficult situation because you need to
spend lots of money to come back to the country to exercise your
daughter's right to visitaiton with you. Your ex knows this, and will
try to exploit it. I would suggest taking a leave of absence from
your overseas job, or finding work closer to your daughter. Fighting
a custody battle as a NCP father is difficult and expensive enough
without incurring travel and expenses. You need to be onsite, at the
ready.

Send a certified letter to your ex letting her know that you intend to
exercise your court-ordered visitation at the specific time and date
ordered. Reference the provision in the orders that spell out your
respective duties and obligations regarding visitation transfers and
schedules. Keep a copy of the letter, of course.

Bring a witness with you -- or at least a videocamera -- documenting
date and time, and your calm and cool behavior at the scene of the
transfer when you show up on time for the visitation. If she follows
through on her threat to interfere with your visitation rights and is
not there for the transfer, hire a good attorney (consult with the
local father's rights group for a referral), and immediately file a
motion in Family Court for contempt.

You will need to take time away from your job and you will incur
expenses (legal, travel, etc.) as you pursue this in family court.
Your ex knows this, and will try to exploit it. You will also very
likely lose the first time (judges will bend over backward to find CPs
not guilty of contempt). However, the effort and money will be worth
it, because you will have sent a message with your actions.

If you do not vigorously enforce your visitation rights EVERY TIME,
you send a message to your ex that she can get away with custodial
interference with impunity. It suggests that you tacitly approve of
not seeing your daughter. Even more dangerous -- your missed visit
can be spun in court to work against you, even though you tried to
complete the visit. Especially if your daughter is young, your ex can
claim that "too much time has passed" between visits and now your
daughter would be "traumatized" by seeing you. Many judges eat this
stuff up -- even though the length of the separation was orchestrated
by your ex, they don't care. I've had this done to me, it is not fun
have to pay for humiliating, supervised visitation with your own child
just because you ex successfully interfered with visitation for a
lengthy period of time, with no penalty.

In addition to the civil remedies I mention above, there are criminal
penalties in most states for interfering with visitation. In
California, it is penal code 278.5, and Florida may have a similar
code. You can probably find it on the 'net. The problem is, the
sheriff and police often refuse to investigate visitation disputes,
and therefore custodial interference is almost never prosecuted even
though it is clearly illegal under the code.

Not to mention, all the mother has to do is tell the father to leave because
he is trespassing. If he refuses to comply, he is subject to arrest. The
trespass violation trumps ANY court order for him to be there!

Asking the police or
sheriff to enforce a visitation order is almost always met with "this
is a civil matter" (not correct) and "you need to go to court and tell
the judge."

I wish you luck -- I went through the same exact crap you describe,
and you MUST nip it in the bud. It will only get worse, and your
daughter's future is riding on what you do next.

Never miss a visit -- keep detailed journals and records -- keep a
copy of your court order with you always -- be organized -- save every
email and voicemail message -- aggressively react to any visitation
interference. I use a Web site (I have no affiliation) called
parentingtime.net that helps you track interfered visits and just
about every other metric that can be used as evidence in family court.
I recommend it.

And of course, I'm not an attorney, none of this should be construed
as legal advice.

--
[Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have
custody of such child]
"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 12:03 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...





On Nov 15, 11:27 am, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 12, 12:48 am, ralph wrote:
Hello
I am dealing with a breach of contract (court order) of child
visitation and looking for some advice based on Florida laws
1. There is a Broward county court order schedule of visitation
(Broward county = Ft. Lauderdale, Fl)

2. Mother of daughter has repeat violated the court order
visitation
requiring that I call the police (call to police recorded by 911
non
emergency and case numbers)

3. I work out of the country and schedule my trips back to
States
for visitation with my daughter and/or medical

4. Mother lives in Orlando and I have arrangements for family
friend
to pick up daughter (some costs)

5. Mother emailed with notice that she plans to violate
visitation
over the Thanksgiving break i.e. take my daughter on a trip
against
the court order and my wishes
"I told you before that I was having JAS for Thanksgiving and
that is
what I intend to do" quote from mother's email
.
6. Mother stated in email that daughter would rather be with
her
over Thanksgiving contrary to daughter's wishes
"Remember, we are supposed to be doing things which
is in
the best interest of JAS. I asked her if she rather be with you
for
Thanksgiving or go with me as planned - she choose me." Quote
from
mother's email

My questions are the following
1. What are my legal options to prevent the mother to take the
action?

2. If mother does take the action, what are my options?

3. Can I sue her in small claims for the cost, aggravation
and mental
stress of her action of breaking a contract?

4. Due to some medical expenses, budget is tight. (car vs.
bike, I
lost)

Regards and thank you in advance
Ralph

Ralph,

This is classic custodial interference. It is a very common tactic
used by vindictive CPs to wear down good NCPs like you until you
just
give up and go away. Once she has succeeded in making you
"abandon"
your daughter, she can then file for more child support based on
her
increase in custodial timeshare. If your ex is like mine, during
the
time your daughter is deprived of your influence, she will be
programmed into believing you are a bad person. This is called
Parental Alienation Syndrome. The quotes from your ex about your
daughter "choosing" to be with her are tell-tale PAS flags and are
all
too familiar. The single best preventative/antidote to PAS is for
your daughter to spend TIME with you. Nobody can make that happen,
except you. Your daughter is depending you to make it happen,
every
time.

Yadda yadda . Look again at his situation.

To have time with his daughter, and even move to actually rearing her
half the
time himself, he needs to fix his situation item #3.

Banty

Banty,

Look again at what I posted. I addressed the problems his out-of-
country job would pose to him, and recommended he take a leave or find
another job nearer his daughter.

OK, I sawt that, but what would be better would be a *permanent* thing.
Father.
Close to kids. Good.

Bnaty

Agreed Banty -- it's hard to parent remotely, even when two parents
are cooperating. One of the most important decisions I made early on
was to always live near my daughter, no matter where my ex moved her.
She moved her across country twice, and twice I picked up and moved to
live near her.

Huge kudos to you!

Was there no way to stop that?


But with a vindictive/alienating CP, living near his daughter can
never be, as you call it, a "permanent" thing for Ralph, unless he's
willing to make some huge sacrifices. The CP-ex can pick up and move
the child far way at any time (not sure about Florida's move-away laws
-- but usually the CP can move the kid at will).

Not so much in NY.

BTW, not that this CP is a peach (more like a turd), but she couldn't be
off
globetrotting on a wunnerful job even if she wanted to and was qualified.
She's
got kids to take care of. Just to keep that in mind.


This is just one more of the inequities faced by NCPs that are seldom
recognized or acknowledged by the courts or the public -- the CP can
just pick up and move the child at will -- and it falls on the NCP to
uproot, sell the house, quit the job, derail the career, etc., all at
the whim of the CP. It's either follow your child around the country,
or "abandon" them. Fair? No. But Ralph needs to know that this is
the way it is and work within the system.

That depends on the state, I know CPs near me who think they are "stuck",
and I
dont' have a lot of sympathy with that attitude, either!

Best thing: don't become the NCP.

In other words, don't become a father.



Banty

--
[Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have
custody of such child]
wrote in message
...
On Nov 15, 12:34 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...





On Nov 15, 12:03 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 11:27 am, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 12, 12:48 am, ralph wrote:
Hello
I am dealing with a breach of contract (court order) of
child
visitation and looking for some advice based on Florida laws
1. There is a Broward county court order schedule of
visitation
(Broward county = Ft. Lauderdale, Fl)

2. Mother of daughter has repeat violated the court order
visitation
requiring that I call the police (call to police recorded by
911 non
emergency and case numbers)

3. I work out of the country and schedule my trips back to
States
for visitation with my daughter and/or medical

4. Mother lives in Orlando and I have arrangements for family
friend
to pick up daughter (some costs)

5. Mother emailed with notice that she plans to violate
visitation
over the Thanksgiving break i.e. take my daughter on a trip
against
the court order and my wishes
"I told you before that I was having JAS for Thanksgiving and
that is
what I intend to do" quote from mother's email
.
6. Mother stated in email that daughter would rather be with
her
over Thanksgiving contrary to daughter's wishes
"Remember, we are supposed to be doing things
which is in
the best interest of JAS. I asked her if she rather be with
you for
Thanksgiving or go with me as planned - she choose me." Quote
from
mother's email

My questions are the following
1. What are my legal options to prevent the mother to take
the action?

2. If mother does take the action, what are my options?

3. Can I sue her in small claims for the cost, aggravation
and mental
stress of her action of breaking a contract?

4. Due to some medical expenses, budget is tight. (car vs.
bike, I
lost)

Regards and thank you in advance
Ralph

Ralph,

This is classic custodial interference. It is a very common
tactic
used by vindictive CPs to wear down good NCPs like you until you
just
give up and go away. Once she has succeeded in making you
"abandon"
your daughter, she can then file for more child support based on
her
increase in custodial timeshare. If your ex is like mine, during
the
time your daughter is deprived of your influence, she will be
programmed into believing you are a bad person. This is called
Parental Alienation Syndrome. The quotes from your ex about your
daughter "choosing" to be with her are tell-tale PAS flags and
are all
too familiar. The single best preventative/antidote to PAS is
for
your daughter to spend TIME with you. Nobody can make that
happen,
except you. Your daughter is depending you to make it happen,
every
time.

Yadda yadda . Look again at his situation.

To have time with his daughter, and even move to actually rearing
her half the
time himself, he needs to fix his situation item #3.

Banty

Banty,

Look again at what I posted. I addressed the problems his out-of-
country job would pose to him, and recommended he take a leave or
find
another job nearer his daughter.

OK, I sawt that, but what would be better would be a *permanent*
thing. Father.
Close to kids. Good.

Bnaty

Agreed Banty -- it's hard to parent remotely, even when two parents
are cooperating. One of the most important decisions I made early on
was to always live near my daughter, no matter where my ex moved her.
She moved her across country twice, and twice I picked up and moved to
live near her.

Huge kudos to you!

Was there no way to stop that?\

Nope. The Burgess decision had just come down and if I had decided to
fight the move, I would almost certainly have lost under statute, not
to mention baby daughter was still in her "tender years," and that
doctrine was still in force in the mid-90s. Now that LaMusga is
prevailing precedent in CA, I will have a good shot at stopping her if
she tries it again.



But with a vindictive/alienating CP, living near his daughter can
never be, as you call it, a "permanent" thing for Ralph, unless he's
willing to make some huge sacrifices. The CP-ex can pick up and move
the child far way at any time (not sure about Florida's move-away laws
-- but usually the CP can move the kid at will).

Not so much in NY.

BTW, not that this CP is a peach (more like a turd), but she couldn't be
off
globetrotting on a wunnerful job even if she wanted to and was
qualified. She's
got kids to take care of. Just to keep that in mind.

Huh? Based on the original post, I don't think Ralph is doing
anything to disrupt her ex's career. But that's what her actions are
doing to him.



This is just one more of the inequities faced by NCPs that are seldom
recognized or acknowledged by the courts or the public -- the CP can
just pick up and move the child at will -- and it falls on the NCP to
uproot, sell the house, quit the job, derail the career, etc., all at
the whim of the CP. It's either follow your child around the country,
or "abandon" them. Fair? No. But Ralph needs to know that this is
the way it is and work within the system.

That depends on the state, I know CPs near me who think they are
"stuck", and I
dont' have a lot of sympathy with that attitude, either!

Best thing: don't become the NCP

Easier said than done in this day of no-fault divorce and automatic-
mother-custody. But this is actually good advice -- fathers out there
who are just now divorcing or separating need to know to immediately
fire any attorney who suggests they just accept the standard "every
other weekend" visitation package and don't put up a fight for equal
parenting.

Great advice for someone who has an UNLIMITED supply of money and doesn't
mind fighting a hopeless battle.

I wish I had been better informed when I got sucked into
this system, because once you agree to become the "visitor," it's
extremely difficult to get promoted to "parent."


Banty

On Nov 15, 5:44 pm, Banty wrote:
In article ,
says...



On Nov 15, 1:39 pm, Banty wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Nov 15, 12:34 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 12:03 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 11:27 am, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 12, 12:48 am, ralph wrote:
Hello
I am dealing with a breach of contract (court order) of child
visitation and looking for some advice based on Florida laws
1. There is a Broward county court order schedule of visitation
(Broward county = Ft. Lauderdale, Fl)

2. Mother of daughter has repeat violated the court order
visitation
requiring that I call the police (call to police recorded by 911 non
emergency and case numbers)

3. I work out of the country and schedule my trips back to States
for visitation with my daughter and/or medical

4. Mother lives in Orlando and I have arrangements for family
friend
to pick up daughter (some costs)

5. Mother emailed with notice that she plans to violate visitation
over the Thanksgiving break i.e. take my daughter on a trip against
the court order and my wishes
"I told you before that I was having JAS for Thanksgiving and that is
what I intend to do" quote from mother's email
.
6. Mother stated in email that daughter would rather be with her
over Thanksgiving contrary to daughter's wishes
"Remember, we are supposed to be doing things which is
in
the best interest of JAS. I asked her if she rather be with you for
Thanksgiving or go with me as planned - she choose me." Quote from
mother's email

My questions are the following
1. What are my legal options to prevent the mother to take the
action?

2. If mother does take the action, what are my options?

3. Can I sue her in small claims for the cost, aggravation and
mental
stress of her action of breaking a contract?

4. Due to some medical expenses, budget is tight. (car vs. bike,
I
lost)

Regards and thank you in advance
Ralph

Ralph,

This is classic custodial interference. It is a very common tactic
used by vindictive CPs to wear down good NCPs like you until you just
give up and go away. Once she has succeeded in making you "abandon"
your daughter, she can then file for more child support based on her
increase in custodial timeshare. If your ex is like mine, during the
time your daughter is deprived of your influence, she will be
programmed into believing you are a bad person. This is called
Parental Alienation Syndrome. The quotes from your ex about your
daughter "choosing" to be with her are tell-tale PAS flags and are all
too familiar. The single best preventative/antidote to PAS is for
your daughter to spend TIME with you. Nobody can make that happen,
except you. Your daughter is depending you to make it happen, every
time.

Yadda yadda . Look again at his situation.

To have time with his daughter, and even move to actually rearing her half
the
time himself, he needs to fix his situation item #3.

Banty

Banty,

Look again at what I posted. I addressed the problems his out-of-
country job would pose to him, and recommended he take a leave or find
another job nearer his daughter.

OK, I sawt that, but what would be better would be a *permanent* thing.
Father.
Close to kids. Good.

Bnaty

Agreed Banty -- it's hard to parent remotely, even when two parents
are cooperating. One of the most important decisions I made early on
was to always live near my daughter, no matter where my ex moved her.
She moved her across country twice, and twice I picked up and moved to
live near her.

Huge kudos to you!

Was there no way to stop that?\

Nope. The Burgess decision had just come down and if I had decided to
fight the move, I would almost certainly have lost under statute, not
to mention baby daughter was still in her "tender years," and that
doctrine was still in force in the mid-90s. Now that LaMusga is
prevailing precedent in CA, I will have a good shot at stopping her if
she tries it again.

Well, absolutely "tender years" sucked, men can raise babies and little kids
too.

Let me look at Burgess and LaMusga - this is just the thing I'm trying to find
out about. Great thanks for mentioning the court cases. I could search court
cases, but I wouldnt' know which the important ones are. Do you happen to have
any links? If CP's can up and move with their kids at will, that most
definately goes into my "real serious valid greivance" column under NCP.

A search on "move-away" with either of those two case names should
yield many hits.

I'm having a heck of time getting info on CS on the web - the Wikipedia article
is poor, and the usual searches gets me too many blogs and advocacy sites. When
I look for state governmnet or US government sites, I get the white papers and
stuff Bob points to. Which don't go to what the current guidelines actually
are.

But with a vindictive/alienating CP, living near his daughter can
never be, as you call it, a "permanent" thing for Ralph, unless he's
willing to make some huge sacrifices. The CP-ex can pick up and move
the child far way at any time (not sure about Florida's move-away laws
-- but usually the CP can move the kid at will).

Not so much in NY.

BTW, not that this CP is a peach (more like a turd), but she couldn't be off
globetrotting on a wunnerful job even if she wanted to and was qualified.
She's
got kids to take care of. Just to keep that in mind.

Huh? Based on the original post, I don't think Ralph is doing
anything to disrupt her ex's career. But that's what her actions are
doing to him.

But her career is much different than one that can happen sans kids, believe me.
I'm a PhD engineer with a kid. It's especially so for people with less
education. He doesnt' have the limitation of needing to care for kids.

Yes, he does. He has an duty/right to care for the kid (I think it's
one) during his custody time. He needs to build his work schedule
around that, and he probably already has. And now she's messing with
it.

Sure. But how many days out of the month is that. How many full weeks in the
year? Do you think *she* could get the travelling job and work around her
schedule - no!

If they agree to share childcare equally? Why not? Married people do
it all the time. If Ralph's with the kid half time, she can have
nearly any career she wants, just like a married person with a kid.
In fact, she's probalby got more flexibility, because the child
support Ralph's likely paying will certainly help defray HER child
care costs. And other thing, move-away cases often involve one parent
moving to where they have extended family and friends (a support
system) who are often reruited to care for the child -- this service
is likely not available to the NCP. I'll grant you, jobs that have a
lot of travel required are not the best situations for new parents --
I did suggest he try to change that aspect of his situation, only
because if the ex is playing games with custody access, then it will
almost certainly become very difficult to both work that job and
enforce visitation rights effectively, which really does become a full-
time job if you don't have a lawyer.

If you are concerned with drumming up sympathy for the CP because
she's a great childcare burden, then I suggest she offer Ralph 50/50
time with the little girl, and let them both get on with their careers
and lives.

I'm all for that! Ralph has get a job close, they have 50-50 physical custody,
and they both make some compromises.

Yup, it can, and should, be done.



But, yeah, her actions are ruining things. Let them ruin it for her!

This is just one more of the inequities faced by NCPs that are seldom
recognized or acknowledged by the courts or the public -- the CP can
just pick up and move the child at will -- and it falls on the NCP to
uproot, sell the house, quit the job, derail the career, etc., all at
the whim of the CP. It's either follow your child around the country,
or "abandon" them. Fair? No. But Ralph needs to know that this is
the way it is and work within the system.

That depends on the state, I know CPs near me who think they are "stuck", and
I
dont' have a lot of sympathy with that attitude, either!

Best thing: don't become the NCP

Easier said than done in this day of no-fault divorce and automatic-
mother-custody. But this is actually good advice -- fathers out there
who are just now divorcing or separating need to know to immediately
fire any attorney who suggests they just accept the standard "every
other weekend" visitation package and don't put up a fight for equal
parenting. I wish I had been better informed when I got sucked into
this system, because once you agree to become the "visitor," it's
extremely difficult to get promoted to "parent."

It's not so automatic mother at least around here. Mothers *do* get custody
most often, but that is because father moves on!

That is B.S. The Sanford Braver study found that mothers get custody
87% of the time, and I don't think it was because 87 out of 100
fathers just said, "you take the kids, I'm movin' on! How much child
support should I send?" Check out "Taken Into Custody," new book by
Stephen Baskerville for the REAL reasons behind default Mommy custody.

Go into it here; don't send me off to some advocacy book, frankly I don't trust
that sort of source.

I don't have the Braver study stats, and I don have time to look them
up (google should yield many, many hits) -- but I will tell you that
one of the biggest myths shattered by his work was that Mother custody
had very little to do with father's "moving on." The Baskervill Book
is brand new -- just came out a couple weeks ago. It discusess all
this stuff in extremly, scholarly detail. It is NOT an advocacy book
-- throughoughly researched and the entire last third of the book is a
bibliography listing scholarly studies and academic literature
sources. I'll confess I'm only halfway into it, but it discusses this
very subject at great length and in great detail about how we find
ourselves in the current system.

Tell me your "REAL reasons". Becasue IME, when the father
takes up the task, he has at least part physical custody.

If you mean MY REAL reasons, I assume you mean about my case. Never
married, short fling, she lied about the pill, kept the baby, tried to
hide her from me, excluded me from the birth, gave the baby her name,
moved away twice, constantly frustrated contact, and years and years
of unethical manipulating stunts (including a false accusation of
violenc) designed to frustrate me and keep baby away, just as the OP
is beginning to experience now. I have spent nearly 12 years and over
$70,000 on lawyers trying to enforce my visitation rights and, soon,
it apprears, I will obtain full custody. And if that miracle happens,
you can be sure that I, as a responsible parent, will facilitate and
encourage daughter's relationship with her Mom, even though Mom had
done the opposite regarding me for baby's entire life.

There has to be a better way, because my daughter has suffered
terribly through all of this. If the mother doesn't want you "step
up" but instead just "pay and stay away" the system makes it very easy
for her to make that happen, and that's wrong. Like I said, I
"settled for visitation" because I was naive and believed a lawyer who
said I'd never get anything more, and trying would cost money, time,
be bad for the baby. I had no idea it was a sham. That was a
mistake, but I wansn't "moving on," I wanted to be Dad with my kid and
coparent with the ex-gf. Once she figured out that was I wanted, her
life's mission became dedicated to preventing that, and it shows no
sign of abating after 12 years. It's funny, one guaranteed way for me
to make sure something does not happen for my daughter is by letting
Mom know that I think doing that something would be a good idea.

I do not want Ralph, who seems to be similarly situated, to go through
what I did, so I'm telling him what worked (eventually) for me, after
I mistakenly allowed myself to be made the powerless NCP.

I know several who
made moves in the other direction - settling right away for visitation (so he
can move on to a new relationship less encumbered), going off to another job in
another state, even one I described in another thread who I *thought* would be
just the guy to step up, but he settled for joint legal custody only, and rented
a house just *outside* his kids' school district, first complaning that he won't
get full custody, then saying he 'needed time apart'. I mean - what's *with
that?*. Step up!



Usually a reflection of who
was going the child rearing work in the family pre divorce.

Oh my goodness. You've been reading mainstream media, haven't you?

No I look around me.

Personal observation is great, but not nearly good enough.
Everybody's got an anecdote or "knows somebody" they think represents
universal reality. Read "Divorced Dads, Shattering the Myths" by
Braver, or his University of Arizona study on divorced and subsequent
custody awards -- the largest study of it's kind ever conducted. I
will again recommend "Taken Into Custody," by Baskerville as a
supplement to "looking around."

http://www.amazon.com/Taken-into-Cus...36211&sr= 8-1

"Dad went to work -- he's not a caregiver -- he can't have custody."

It's not even that they look at the record then say "she's the caregiver she has
custody" - the preference in my state is for some kind of joint arrangement, at
least legal.

Yeah, that's the preference here, too. Most states have it on the
books. It's meaningless. Family judges just ignore it and give
custody to the mother in most cases. The "bone" they toss Dad is
"joint legal custody," which is worthless. Like I said in my original
response to the OP, there is no substitute for TIME with your child.

I see parents off and do *something else*. They're mad at the ex;
they're not getting their way, they don't want to have to co-parent with that
awful awful awful ex-spouse, they off and *do somethign else*. The guys that
stay put, are sharing custody.

Yup, like me -- but only after surviving the manipulations and abuses
Ralph is starting to go through, and spending tens of thousand in
lawyers. Not all guys can do that -- they just don't have the
resources, finanical or emotional. Ralph and me shouldn't have to go
through that crap, and I'm trying to give Ralph the info he needs to
nip it in the bud for the sake of his kid, sanity, and bank account.

Same thing with mothers, BTW, I work daily with
a NCP mom. They are amicable, but it was the ex husband who was keen on
parenting, she is more if an independant type.


But the reverse is also held against Dad. "Dad stayed at home -- he's
a slacker (and weird) -- he can't have custody."

Is it because it's a mutually worked out stay at home dad arrangement? Or a
poor employment record? There's a difference.

It reminds me of the
flip-flop that NOW did between the '60s and the '90s. Back in the
'60s, NOW was criticizing fathers for not being involved, for going to
work all day, and not helping with child-rearing. Presently, NOW
fights to protect de facto mother custody after divorce, fighting to
prevent Dad from helping with the child-rearing. Dad's wrong no
matter what he does.

NOW is an advocacy organization for any and all benefit to women like NRA is to
gun owners and AARP for older persons. I disagree with NOW on a number of
things, including this.


Agreed.



When the father
stays put and demands it, and more and more simply doens't stand in the way of
it where joint custody is becoming the preferred arrangement, he gets joint
custody. And I know three with *full* custody. Because *mother* moved on. And
Mommy gets to pay CS in those cases.

It happens. Everybody's got an anecdote to support the prevalence of
a particular scenario. But the OP finds himself the NCP, and he's
asking for help on how to enforce visitation in the face of an
uncooperative CP. This is, sadly, a very common scenario that most
fathers don't expect to be faced with or understand how to deal with.
And many fathers find themselve in this situation because they expect
the system to treat them fairly. They have no idea how deep the
rabbit hole is they just fell into. They are agreeable to doing what
the ex wants at first, because they expect their ex to put the kids
first and not play dirty. They don't realize that every word they
utter or action they take can be twisted and used against them. They
are naive, and by the time they realize how the system really works,
they are broke, broken NCPs.

I know that happens a lot. People hate each other after divorce, and some
people suck to begin with. I hope he gets his due.


Me too. It would be nice if Ralph posted again to see if any of this
is helping him or if we're just frightening him, haha.

I did the Cub Scout newsletter. I had two CP mothers ask me not to send the
newsletter to the father (in the case of one) or father's mother where he was
staying (in case of the other). I smiled, said "do I have your address right -
let's check that", then continued to send a copy to the father and the paternal
grandmother. Petty little jerks, even trying to put the Cub Scout newsletter
lady in the middle if this.


Classic alienation tactic that I endure every day from daughter's
school. The NCPs job is never done -- you 've got to be down in their
face at the school office just to get information. It's like you're a
monster, or persona non-grata. All this extra crap takes time -- time
that you don't have because you've got to care for the child during
your time (if you're lucky), but you've got to put in those hours at
the job to make the income -- heaeven forbid the child support payment
is late. People like you who keep the NCP informed and involved are
angels -- I've run into a few like that at daughter's school. They
recognize what's going on, and do the right thing even against the CPs
wishes. I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to encounter such a
person.

On an aside -- that is great that you are doing Cub scouts -- in this
day and age of "all men near kids are potential molestors," we need
good men stepping up and being good role models for kids. My
daughter's in 6th grade now, and she never had a single male teacher
in all of elementary school (except for PE -- typical). I'm basically
her only male role model, and of course I get to see her only on
Wednesdays and every other weekend.

Oh wait -- I just noticed that yourer the newsletter *lady.*
Nevertheess, it is great that your doing scouts (I bought some carmel
corn outside of the supermarket last week), but I hope there are a few
male Scout leaders in your troop.

Later Banty,
MR

Banty

On Nov 16, 8:12 am, "Chris" wrote:
--
[Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have
custody of such wrote in message

... On Nov 15, 12:34 pm, Banty wrote:
In article

, says...

On Nov 15, 12:03 pm, Banty wrote:
In article

,



says...

On Nov 15, 11:27 am, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 12, 12:48 am, ralph wrote:
Hello
I am dealing with a breach of contract (court order) of
child
visitation and looking for some advice based on Florida laws
1. There is a Broward county court order schedule of
visitation
(Broward county = Ft. Lauderdale, Fl)

2. Mother of daughter has repeat violated the court order
visitation
requiring that I call the police (call to police recorded by
911 non
emergency and case numbers)

3. I work out of the country and schedule my trips back to
States
for visitation with my daughter and/or medical

4. Mother lives in Orlando and I have arrangements for family
friend
to pick up daughter (some costs)

5. Mother emailed with notice that she plans to violate
visitation
over the Thanksgiving break i.e. take my daughter on a trip
against
the court order and my wishes
"I told you before that I was having JAS for Thanksgiving and
that is
what I intend to do" quote from mother's email
.
6. Mother stated in email that daughter would rather be with
her
over Thanksgiving contrary to daughter's wishes
"Remember, we are supposed to be doing things
which is in
the best interest of JAS. I asked her if she rather be with
you for
Thanksgiving or go with me as planned - she choose me." Quote
from
mother's email

My questions are the following
1. What are my legal options to prevent the mother to take
the action?

2. If mother does take the action, what are my options?

3. Can I sue her in small claims for the cost, aggravation
and mental
stress of her action of breaking a contract?

4. Due to some medical expenses, budget is tight. (car vs.
bike, I
lost)

Regards and thank you in advance
Ralph

Ralph,

This is classic custodial interference. It is a very common
tactic
used by vindictive CPs to wear down good NCPs like you until you
just
give up and go away. Once she has succeeded in making you
"abandon"
your daughter, she can then file for more child support based on
her
increase in custodial timeshare. If your ex is like mine, during
the
time your daughter is deprived of your influence, she will be
programmed into believing you are a bad person. This is called
Parental Alienation Syndrome. The quotes from your ex about your
daughter "choosing" to be with her are tell-tale PAS flags and
are all
too familiar. The single best preventative/antidote to PAS is
for
your daughter to spend TIME with you. Nobody can make that
happen,
except you. Your daughter is depending you to make it happen,
every
time.

Yadda yadda . Look again at his situation.

To have time with his daughter, and even move to actually rearing
her half the
time himself, he needs to fix his situation item #3.

Banty

Banty,

Look again at what I posted. I addressed the problems his out-of-
country job would pose to him, and recommended he take a leave or
find
another job nearer his daughter.

OK, I sawt that, but what would be better would be a *permanent*
thing. Father.
Close to kids. Good.

Bnaty

Agreed Banty -- it's hard to parent remotely, even when two parents
are cooperating. One of the most important decisions I made early on
was to always live near my daughter, no matter where my ex moved her.
She moved her across country twice, and twice I picked up and moved to
live near her.

Huge kudos to you!

Was there no way to stop that?\

Nope. The Burgess decision had just come down and if I had decided to
fight the move, I would almost certainly have lost under statute, not
to mention baby daughter was still in her "tender years," and that
doctrine was still in force in the mid-90s. Now that LaMusga is
prevailing precedent in CA, I will have a good shot at stopping her if
she tries it again.

But with a vindictive/alienating CP, living near his daughter can
never be, as you call it, a "permanent" thing for Ralph, unless he's
willing to make some huge sacrifices. The CP-ex can pick up and move
the child far way at any time (not sure about Florida's move-away laws
-- but usually the CP can move the kid at will).

Not so much in NY.

BTW, not that this CP is a peach (more like a turd), but she couldn't be
off
globetrotting on a wunnerful job even if she wanted to and was
qualified. She's
got kids to take care of. Just to keep that in mind.

Huh? Based on the original post, I don't think Ralph is doing
anything to disrupt her ex's career. But that's what her actions are
doing to him.

This is just one more of the inequities faced by NCPs that are seldom
recognized or acknowledged by the courts or the public -- the CP can
just pick up and move the child at will -- and it falls on the NCP to
uproot, sell the house, quit the job, derail the career, etc., all at
the whim of the CP. It's either follow your child around the country,
or "abandon" them. Fair? No. But Ralph needs to know that this is
the way it is and work within the system.

That depends on the state, I know CPs near me who think they are
"stuck", and I
dont' have a lot of sympathy with that attitude, either!

Best thing: don't become the NCP

Easier said than done in this day of no-fault divorce and automatic-
mother-custody. But this is actually good advice -- fathers out there
who are just now divorcing or separating need to know to immediately
fire any attorney who suggests they just accept the standard "every
other weekend" visitation package and don't put up a fight for equal
parenting.

Great advice for someone who has an UNLIMITED supply of money and doesn't
mind fighting a hopeless battle.

True, but it's not hopeless. Nearly, but not entirely.

I was lucky I worked in a marketable profession. I don't make a ton,
but at least every time she moved the kids away I was able to find
work in computers in the city to which she absconded with the kid.

Actually, after spending about a year's salary on attorneys, I do it
myself now, and get better results. I would suggest that to Ralph,
but if he's new at this, it might be tough for him to go Pro Se.

In article ,
says...

On Nov 15, 5:44 pm, Banty wrote:
In article ,
says...


W
On Nov 15, 1:39 pm, Banty wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Nov 15, 12:34 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 12:03 pm, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 15, 11:27 am, Banty wrote:
In article
,
says...

On Nov 12, 12:48 am, ralph wrote:
Hello
I am dealing with a breach of contract (court order) of child
visitation and looking for some advice based on Florida laws
1. There is a Broward county court order schedule of visitation
(Broward county = Ft. Lauderdale, Fl)

2. Mother of daughter has repeat violated the court order
visitation
requiring that I call the police (call to police recorded by 911
non
emergency and case numbers)

3. I work out of the country and schedule my trips back to
States
for visitation with my daughter and/or medical

4. Mother lives in Orlando and I have arrangements for family
friend
to pick up daughter (some costs)

5. Mother emailed with notice that she plans to violate
visitation
over the Thanksgiving break i.e. take my daughter on a trip
against
the court order and my wishes
"I told you before that I was having JAS for Thanksgiving and that
is
what I intend to do" quote from mother's email
.
6. Mother stated in email that daughter would rather be with her
over Thanksgiving contrary to daughter's wishes
"Remember, we are supposed to be doing things which is
in
the best interest of JAS. I asked her if she rather be with you
for
Thanksgiving or go with me as planned - she choose me." Quote from
mother's email

My questions are the following
1. What are my legal options to prevent the mother to take the
action?

2. If mother does take the action, what are my options?

3. Can I sue her in small claims for the cost, aggravation and
mental
stress of her action of breaking a contract?

4. Due to some medical expenses, budget is tight. (car vs.
bike,
I
lost)

Regards and thank you in advance
Ralph

Ralph,

This is classic custodial interference. It is a very common tactic
used by vindictive CPs to wear down good NCPs like you until you
just
give up and go away. Once she has succeeded in making you "abandon"
your daughter, she can then file for more child support based on her
increase in custodial timeshare. If your ex is like mine, during
the
time your daughter is deprived of your influence, she will be
programmed into believing you are a bad person. This is called
Parental Alienation Syndrome. The quotes from your ex about your
daughter "choosing" to be with her are tell-tale PAS flags and are
all
too familiar. The single best preventative/antidote to PAS is for
your daughter to spend TIME with you. Nobody can make that happen,
except you. Your daughter is depending you to make it happen, every
time.

Yadda yadda . Look again at his situation.

To have time with his daughter, and even move to actually rearing her
half
the
time himself, he needs to fix his situation item #3.

Banty

Banty,

Look again at what I posted. I addressed the problems his out-of-
country job would pose to him, and recommended he take a leave or find
another job nearer his daughter.

OK, I sawt that, but what would be better would be a *permanent* thing.
Father.
Close to kids. Good.

Bnaty

Agreed Banty -- it's hard to parent remotely, even when two parents
are cooperating. One of the most important decisions I made early on
was to always live near my daughter, no matter where my ex moved her.
She moved her across country twice, and twice I picked up and moved to
live near her.

Huge kudos to you!

Was there no way to stop that?\

Nope. The Burgess decision had just come down and if I had decided to
fight the move, I would almost certainly have lost under statute, not
to mention baby daughter was still in her "tender years," and that
doctrine was still in force in the mid-90s. Now that LaMusga is
prevailing precedent in CA, I will have a good shot at stopping her if
she tries it again.

Well, absolutely "tender years" sucked, men can raise babies and little kids
too.

Let me look at Burgess and LaMusga - this is just the thing I'm trying to find
out about. Great thanks for mentioning the court cases. I could search court
cases, but I wouldnt' know which the important ones are. Do you happen to have
any links? If CP's can up and move with their kids at will, that most
definately goes into my "real serious valid greivance" column under NCP.

A search on "move-away" with either of those two case names should
yield many hits.

I'm having a heck of time getting info on CS on the web - the Wikipedia
article
is poor, and the usual searches gets me too many blogs and advocacy sites.
When
I look for state governmnet or US government sites, I get the white papers and
stuff Bob points to. Which don't go to what the current guidelines actually
are.

But with a vindictive/alienating CP, living near his daughter can
never be, as you call it, a "permanent" thing for Ralph, unless he's
willing to make some huge sacrifices. The CP-ex can pick up and move
the child far way at any time (not sure about Florida's move-away laws
-- but usually the CP can move the kid at will).

Not so much in NY.

BTW, not that this CP is a peach (more like a turd), but she couldn't be
off
globetrotting on a wunnerful job even if she wanted to and was qualified.
She's
got kids to take care of. Just to keep that in mind.

Huh? Based on the original post, I don't think Ralph is doing
anything to disrupt her ex's career. But that's what her actions are
doing to him.

But her career is much different than one that can happen sans kids, believe
me.
I'm a PhD engineer with a kid. It's especially so for people with less
education. He doesnt' have the limitation of needing to care for kids.

Yes, he does. He has an duty/right to care for the kid (I think it's
one) during his custody time. He needs to build his work schedule
around that, and he probably already has. And now she's messing with
it.

Sure. But how many days out of the month is that. How many full weeks in the
year? Do you think *she* could get the travelling job and work around her
schedule - no!

If they agree to share childcare equally?

No I mean *now*.

Why not? Married people do
it all the time. If Ralph's with the kid half time, she can have
nearly any career she wants, just like a married person with a kid.
In fact, she's probalby got more flexibility, because the child
support Ralph's likely paying will certainly help defray HER child
care costs.

Oh sure! Often there are particulars one way or the other, but in the main, and
fundamentally - YES people do that all the time and she would have more
flexibility than now.

Now *both* would probably need to make some compromises career-wise, too,
compared to a non-kid situation, but that's like any intact family with two
parents working.

And other thing, move-away cases often involve one parent
moving to where they have extended family and friends (a support
system) who are often reruited to care for the child -- this service
is likely not available to the NCP. I'll grant you, jobs that have a
lot of travel required are not the best situations for new parents --

Well, there's nothing *wrong* with a travelling job if it works in the family
arrangement. My father was in the Air Force and had the ultimate global
travelling job. It's just that there's too high a cost to it for a lot of
situations, including probably Ralph's.

I did suggest he try to change that aspect of his situation, only
because if the ex is playing games with custody access, then it will
almost certainly become very difficult to both work that job and
enforce visitation rights effectively, which really does become a full-
time job if you don't have a lawyer.

Yep.


If you are concerned with drumming up sympathy for the CP because
she's a great childcare burden, then I suggest she offer Ralph 50/50
time with the little girl, and let them both get on with their careers
and lives.

I'm all for that! Ralph has get a job close, they have 50-50 physical custody,
and they both make some compromises.

Yup, it can, and should, be done.



But, yeah, her actions are ruining things. Let them ruin it for her!

This is just one more of the inequities faced by NCPs that are seldom
recognized or acknowledged by the courts or the public -- the CP can
just pick up and move the child at will -- and it falls on the NCP to
uproot, sell the house, quit the job, derail the career, etc., all at
the whim of the CP. It's either follow your child around the country,
or "abandon" them. Fair? No. But Ralph needs to know that this is
the way it is and work within the system.

That depends on the state, I know CPs near me who think they are "stuck",
and
I
dont' have a lot of sympathy with that attitude, either!

Best thing: don't become the NCP

Easier said than done in this day of no-fault divorce and automatic-
mother-custody. But this is actually good advice -- fathers out there
who are just now divorcing or separating need to know to immediately
fire any attorney who suggests they just accept the standard "every
other weekend" visitation package and don't put up a fight for equal
parenting. I wish I had been better informed when I got sucked into
this system, because once you agree to become the "visitor," it's
extremely difficult to get promoted to "parent."

It's not so automatic mother at least around here. Mothers *do* get custody
most often, but that is because father moves on!

That is B.S. The Sanford Braver study found that mothers get custody
87% of the time, and I don't think it was because 87 out of 100
fathers just said, "you take the kids, I'm movin' on! How much child
support should I send?" Check out "Taken Into Custody," new book by
Stephen Baskerville for the REAL reasons behind default Mommy custody.

Go into it here; don't send me off to some advocacy book, frankly I don't trust
that sort of source.

I don't have the Braver study stats, and I don have time to look them
up (google should yield many, many hits) -- but I will tell you that
one of the biggest myths shattered by his work was that Mother custody
had very little to do with father's "moving on." The Baskervill Book
is brand new -- just came out a couple weeks ago. It discusess all
this stuff in extremly, scholarly detail. It is NOT an advocacy book
-- throughoughly researched and the entire last third of the book is a
bibliography listing scholarly studies and academic literature
sources. I'll confess I'm only halfway into it, but it discusses this
very subject at great length and in great detail about how we find
ourselves in the current system.

Tell me your "REAL reasons". Becasue IME, when the father
takes up the task, he has at least part physical custody.

If you mean MY REAL reasons,

Actually no I didn't; I meant more the academic side w.r.t to the book.

I assume you mean about my case. Never
married, short fling, she lied about the pill, kept the baby, tried to
hide her from me, excluded me from the birth, gave the baby her name,
moved away twice, constantly frustrated contact, and years and years
of unethical manipulating stunts (including a false accusation of
violenc) designed to frustrate me and keep baby away, just as the OP
is beginning to experience now. I have spent nearly 12 years and over
$70,000 on lawyers trying to enforce my visitation rights and, soon,
it apprears, I will obtain full custody.

Wow! Good.

Y'know - could you have been happy with joint custody or even liberal visitation
(and her stay put), if she hadn't pulled all that crap?

And if that miracle happens,
you can be sure that I, as a responsible parent, will facilitate and
encourage daughter's relationship with her Mom, even though Mom had
done the opposite regarding me for baby's entire life.

Hope it works out.


There has to be a better way, because my daughter has suffered
terribly through all of this. If the mother doesn't want you "step
up" but instead just "pay and stay away" the system makes it very easy
for her to make that happen, and that's wrong. Like I said, I
"settled for visitation" because I was naive and believed a lawyer who
said I'd never get anything more, and trying would cost money, time,
be bad for the baby. I had no idea it was a sham. That was a
mistake, but I wansn't "moving on," I wanted to be Dad with my kid and
coparent with the ex-gf. Once she figured out that was I wanted, her
life's mission became dedicated to preventing that, and it shows no
sign of abating after 12 years. It's funny, one guaranteed way for me
to make sure something does not happen for my daughter is by letting
Mom know that I think doing that something would be a good idea.

I do not want Ralph, who seems to be similarly situated, to go through
what I did, so I'm telling him what worked (eventually) for me, after
I mistakenly allowed myself to be made the powerless NCP.


Someone else *did* post the 'fergit it pal yer screwed' message. But you know,
I think this system-is-stacked-against-us message doesn't help!

Is it that it turns out to often have little benefit for the litigators?


I know several who
made moves in the other direction - settling right away for visitation (so he
can move on to a new relationship less encumbered), going off to another job in
another state, even one I described in another thread who I *thought* would be
just the guy to step up, but he settled for joint legal custody only, and rented
a house just *outside* his kids' school district, first complaning that he won't
get full custody, then saying he 'needed time apart'. I mean - what's *with
that?*. Step up!



Usually a reflection of who
was going the child rearing work in the family pre divorce.

Oh my goodness. You've been reading mainstream media, haven't you?

No I look around me.

Personal observation is great, but not nearly good enough.

Well, there are limitations just going from personal experience of course. But
I'm suspicious of cherry-picked references, too - every side seems to have 'em.
And other people here are going from their personal experiences too.

Everybody's got an anecdote or "knows somebody" they think represents
universal reality. Read "Divorced Dads, Shattering the Myths" by
Braver, or his University of Arizona study on divorced and subsequent
custody awards -- the largest study of it's kind ever conducted. I
will again recommend "Taken Into Custody," by Baskerville as a
supplement to "looking around."

http://www.amazon.com/Taken-into-Cus...36211&sr= 8-1

"Dad went to work -- he's not a caregiver -- he can't have custody."

It's not even that they look at the record then say "she's the caregiver she has
custody" - the preference in my state is for some kind of joint arrangement, at
least legal.

Yeah, that's the preference here, too. Most states have it on the
books. It's meaningless. Family judges just ignore it and give
custody to the mother in most cases. The "bone" they toss Dad is
"joint legal custody," which is worthless. Like I said in my original
response to the OP, there is no substitute for TIME with your child.

I see parents off and do *something else*. They're mad at the ex;
they're not getting their way, they don't want to have to co-parent with that
awful awful awful ex-spouse, they off and *do somethign else*. The guys that
stay put, are sharing custody.

Yup, like me -- but only after surviving the manipulations and abuses
Ralph is starting to go through, and spending tens of thousand in
lawyers. Not all guys can do that -- they just don't have the
resources, finanical or emotional. Ralph and me shouldn't have to go
through that crap, and I'm trying to give Ralph the info he needs to
nip it in the bud for the sake of his kid, sanity, and bank account.

Nobody should have to go through that crap.


Same thing with mothers, BTW, I work daily with
a NCP mom. They are amicable, but it was the ex husband who was keen on
parenting, she is more if an independant type.


But the reverse is also held against Dad. "Dad stayed at home -- he's
a slacker (and weird) -- he can't have custody."

Is it because it's a mutually worked out stay at home dad arrangement? Or a
poor employment record? There's a difference.

It reminds me of the
flip-flop that NOW did between the '60s and the '90s. Back in the
'60s, NOW was criticizing fathers for not being involved, for going to
work all day, and not helping with child-rearing. Presently, NOW
fights to protect de facto mother custody after divorce, fighting to
prevent Dad from helping with the child-rearing. Dad's wrong no
matter what he does.

NOW is an advocacy organization for any and all benefit to women like NRA is to
gun owners and AARP for older persons. I disagree with NOW on a number of
things, including this.


Agreed.



When the father
stays put and demands it, and more and more simply doens't stand in the way of
it where joint custody is becoming the preferred arrangement, he gets joint
custody. And I know three with *full* custody. Because *mother* moved on.
And
Mommy gets to pay CS in those cases.

It happens. Everybody's got an anecdote to support the prevalence of
a particular scenario. But the OP finds himself the NCP, and he's
asking for help on how to enforce visitation in the face of an
uncooperative CP. This is, sadly, a very common scenario that most
fathers don't expect to be faced with or understand how to deal with.
And many fathers find themselve in this situation because they expect
the system to treat them fairly. They have no idea how deep the
rabbit hole is they just fell into. They are agreeable to doing what
the ex wants at first, because they expect their ex to put the kids
first and not play dirty. They don't realize that every word they
utter or action they take can be twisted and used against them. They
are naive, and by the time they realize how the system really works,
they are broke, broken NCPs.

I know that happens a lot. People hate each other after divorce, and some
people suck to begin with. I hope he gets his due.


Me too. It would be nice if Ralph posted again to see if any of this
is helping him or if we're just frightening him, haha.

I did the Cub Scout newsletter. I had two CP mothers ask me not to send the
newsletter to the father (in the case of one) or father's mother where he was
staying (in case of the other). I smiled, said "do I have your address right -
let's check that", then continued to send a copy to the father and the paternal
grandmother. Petty little jerks, even trying to put the Cub Scout newsletter
lady in the middle if this.


Classic alienation tactic that I endure every day from daughter's
school. The NCPs job is never done -- you 've got to be down in their
face at the school office just to get information. It's like you're a
monster, or persona non-grata. All this extra crap takes time -- time
that you don't have because you've got to care for the child during
your time (if you're lucky), but you've got to put in those hours at
the job to make the income -- heaeven forbid the child support payment
is late. People like you who keep the NCP informed and involved are
angels -- I've run into a few like that at daughter's school. They
recognize what's going on, and do the right thing even against the CPs
wishes. I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to encounter such a
person.


Maybe I wasn't quite so noble, just a little wise. See, to me, since I know a
lot of crap happens on either or both sides in a lot of these situations, the
only way to stay *out* of it, was to send the newsletter to both parties. But
the pettiness amazed me. Those mothers must be going after each and ever little
possibiliy for information going to the ex, if they're going over a monthly
little stapled Cub Scout newsletter jees.

On an aside -- that is great that you are doing Cub scouts -- in this
day and age of "all men near kids are potential molestors," we need
good men stepping up and being good role models for kids. My
daughter's in 6th grade now, and she never had a single male teacher
in all of elementary school (except for PE -- typical). I'm basically
her only male role model, and of course I get to see her only on
Wednesdays and every other weekend.

Oh wait -- I just noticed that yourer the newsletter *lady.*
Nevertheess, it is great that your doing scouts (I bought some carmel
corn outside of the supermarket last week), but I hope there are a few
male Scout leaders in your troop.

The pack had some male Den Leaders, the troop is all male Scout leaders and
co-leaders, which is typical.

Banty

"teachrmama" wrote in


How? How do you step up? Get a lawyer to hlpe? On top of CS, that is an
expense that many cannot bear. I have a friend who has spent almost
$50,000 to keep shared custody of his daughter. That's $50.000 that will
never be spent on the child. Is that the kind of stepping up you mean?


As they say, Justice in America is only for those who can afford it!