A sad commentary on teaching values...

We have always instilled in our kids the importance of good manners and
treating people with courtesy, good phone manners are especially important.

The other day my 12 yr old sons friend called, whom has little or no phone
manners at all and usually gives the standard "Is sons name there?, no
please attached. Well, after 3 calls in about 10 minutes the other night
while we were busy doing our annual canning spree, my wife answered the
phone after wiping her hands yet again, said kid was on the phone again and
just blurted out "I need kids name", my wife called our son to the phone &
told him it was for him, then told him to ask his friend to be a little less
rude on the phone next time he called. My son goes to the next room with the
phone, and a few minutes later brings it back and gives it to my wife, said
kids mother then proceeded to tear a strip off my wife because her son was
crying in his room for being called "rude". My wife explained to her the
sequence of calls and how we were addressed, and how our kids lose their
phone privileges if we hear them not using their manners etc. The mom
replied "Well, I know other kids name doesn't have the best phone manners,
and they are probably going to get worse, not better, but we love him the
way he is" and hung up.

My wife was stunned at this reply, looked at me in disbelief and said "what
the f### was that?!" It is indeed sad that this type of behavior is more
the rule rather than the exception these days, if it were our kid and we
heard he'd addressed someone on the phone like that he would have been the
one on the phone apologizing to the other parent for being rude, THEN would
have lost phone privileges for a week!

Is this what things are coming to?

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"T.R.H." wrote:

We have always instilled in our kids the importance of good manners and
treating people with courtesy, good phone manners are especially
important.

The other day my 12 yr old sons friend called, whom has little or no
phone
manners at all and usually gives the standard "Is sons name there?, no
please attached. Well, after 3 calls in about 10 minutes the other
night
while we were busy doing our annual canning spree, my wife answered the
phone after wiping her hands yet again, said kid was on the phone again
and
just blurted out "I need kids name", my wife called our son to the
phone &
told him it was for him, then told him to ask his friend to be a little
less
rude on the phone next time he called. My son goes to the next room with
the
phone, and a few minutes later brings it back and gives it to my wife,
said
kids mother then proceeded to tear a strip off my wife because her son
was
crying in his room for being called "rude". My wife explained to her the
sequence of calls and how we were addressed, and how our kids lose their
phone privileges if we hear them not using their manners etc. The mom
replied "Well, I know other kids name doesn't have the best phone
manners,
and they are probably going to get worse, not better, but we love him
the
way he is" and hung up.

My wife was stunned at this reply, looked at me in disbelief and said
"what
the f### was that?!" It is indeed sad that this type of behavior is
more
the rule rather than the exception these days, if it were our kid and we
heard he'd addressed someone on the phone like that he would have been
the
one on the phone apologizing to the other parent for being rude, THEN
would
have lost phone privileges for a week!

Is this what things are coming to?



Kids learn phone manners from their parents, and I'm guessing your son's
friend's parents don't have great phone manners, either. However, since
you are the one reading here, I'm going to give you some unsolicited
advice.

I've had pretty good luck teaching my kids' friends how to call here,
without ever calling them rude (either directly or through my own child)
or asking my kids to give their friends phone lessons. Sometimes, I've
been fairly direct ("I'd prefer it if you ask if you can talk to XXX
rather than if XXX were here.") More often the conversations start
something like this:

"Is so and so there?"

"Yes; would you like to speak to her?"

"um, yeah."

"May I tell her who is calling?"

"Uh, this is YYY"

After a few rounds of THAT with the same friend, it goes more like this:

"Is so and so there?"

"Yes."

(loooooong pause, followed by a giggle.)

"Can I talk to her please?, um, this is YYYY."

Eventually, with some of the kids, we get to, "Hi, this is YYY, can I
please talk to so and so?"

(My Dad used to amuse my friends by answering the question "Is XXX
there?" by saying "yes", and then hanging up. At least, MOST of them
thought it was pretty funny. But they stopped asking if I was there,
and started asking if they could talk to me.)


It is my experience that most adults, too, don't ask if they can speak
to a person -- instead they ask if that person is there. I don't like
that, because sometimes the answer is, yes, I'm home, no, I don't want
to come to the phone. However, I don't think you can expect kids to
learn manners that most adults aren't using, either.

And I'm going to say one more unsolicited thing: I think it is rude to
ask your son to deliver that sort of message to his friend. I think if
you have something to say to a person, you ought to say it yourself. On
occassion, I might tell one of my children that one of their friends did
something that I found unpleasant; however, it is up to them to decide
whether or not to discuss it with their friends -- and sometimes they
do, sometimes they don't. (And sometimes they tell me I've
overreacted.) However, if I want a specific message to get to a
specific person, I deliver it directly, NOT by asking my child to
deliver it.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care


I agree, in hindsight my GW thought that she would have been better off to
tell the child directly, and I do like the idea of just say "yes" when
someone asks is so and so is "there" and hanging up - cant wait to try it!

But my original point was its sad that a lot of kids arent taught general
good manners anymore, and too many people take the cop-out way and say
"thats the way they are" and leave it at that. My sisters both teach and
they tell me that bad manners are the norm now and good ones the rare
exception - and that to me is a sad reality

cheers

x-no-archive:yes
dragonlady wrote:

In article ,
"T.R.H." wrote:

We have always instilled in our kids the importance of good manners and
treating people with courtesy, good phone manners are especially important.

The other day my 12 yr old sons friend called, whom has little or no phone
manners at all and usually gives the standard "Is sons name there?, no

I don't know that "Is x there?" needs to have a please. I would
probably say that without saying please.

I would say "May I speak to him please", or "May I please speak to
him?" or "Can you please tell me.." and I would certainly say "Hello
Mrs. TRH" first. But to say "Is TRH junior there please" doesn't
sound right to me. I'm not asking for anything. May I speak is
asking for permission. Can you please tell me is asking them to do
something. I suppose if you wanted to be especially polite then you
might say "Can you please tell me if TRH Jr is there?" But I think
that's a bit contrived myself. YMMV

please attached. Well, after 3 calls in about 10 minutes the other night
while we were busy doing our annual canning spree, my wife answered the
phone after wiping her hands yet again, said kid was on the phone again and
just blurted out "I need kids name", my wife called our son to the phone &

The appropriate thing for your wife to do at the FIRST call was to
tell the kid politely that she was very busy and that your son would
call him back when he was finished. That would have avoided the whole
problem. All she would have needed to say was "I'm sorry but TRH Jr.
can't come to the phone right now because we are all quite busy - he
will call you back when he is free."

told him it was for him, then told him to ask his friend to be a little less
rude on the phone next time he called. My son goes to the next room with the
phone, and a few minutes later brings it back and gives it to my wife, said
kids mother then proceeded to tear a strip off my wife because her son was
crying in his room for being called "rude". My wife explained to her the
sequence of calls and how we were addressed, and how our kids lose their
phone privileges if we hear them not using their manners etc. The mom
replied "Well, I know other kids name doesn't have the best phone manners,
and they are probably going to get worse, not better, but we love him the
way he is" and hung up.

My wife was stunned at this reply, looked at me in disbelief and said "what
the f### was that?!" It is indeed sad that this type of behavior is more

Wash your wife's mouth out with soap. I think that's far more rude
than just not saying please.

the rule rather than the exception these days, if it were our kid and we
heard he'd addressed someone on the phone like that he would have been the
one on the phone apologizing to the other parent for being rude, THEN would
have lost phone privileges for a week!

Is this what things are coming to?


Kids learn phone manners from their parents, and I'm guessing your son's
friend's parents don't have great phone manners, either. However, since
you are the one reading here, I'm going to give you some unsolicited
advice.

I've had pretty good luck teaching my kids' friends how to call here,
without ever calling them rude (either directly or through my own child)
or asking my kids to give their friends phone lessons. Sometimes, I've
been fairly direct ("I'd prefer it if you ask if you can talk to XXX
rather than if XXX were here.") More often the conversations start
something like this:

"Is so and so there?"

"Yes; would you like to speak to her?"

"um, yeah."

"May I tell her who is calling?"

"Uh, this is YYY"

After a few rounds of THAT with the same friend, it goes more like this:

"Is so and so there?"

"Yes."

(loooooong pause, followed by a giggle.)

"Can I talk to her please?, um, this is YYYY."

Eventually, with some of the kids, we get to, "Hi, this is YYY, can I
please talk to so and so?"

(My Dad used to amuse my friends by answering the question "Is XXX
there?" by saying "yes", and then hanging up. At least, MOST of them
thought it was pretty funny. But they stopped asking if I was there,
and started asking if they could talk to me.)


It is my experience that most adults, too, don't ask if they can speak
to a person -- instead they ask if that person is there. I don't like
that, because sometimes the answer is, yes, I'm home, no, I don't want
to come to the phone. However, I don't think you can expect kids to
learn manners that most adults aren't using, either.

And I'm going to say one more unsolicited thing: I think it is rude to
ask your son to deliver that sort of message to his friend. I think if

Ditto this. (And the rest of what meh said)

you have something to say to a person, you ought to say it yourself. On
occassion, I might tell one of my children that one of their friends did
something that I found unpleasant; however, it is up to them to decide
whether or not to discuss it with their friends -- and sometimes they
do, sometimes they don't. (And sometimes they tell me I've
overreacted.) However, if I want a specific message to get to a
specific person, I deliver it directly, NOT by asking my child to
deliver it.

meh

For one thing - there's really no polite way for the child to say that
to another child.
grandma Rosalie

Wash your wife's mouth out with soap. I think that's far more rude
than just not saying please.


When my wife and I are having a private conversation, as this was, this is
NOT rude as long as I"M not offended by it IMO


As far as what MR said, "culture-schmulture" as far as I'm concerned, bad
manners are bad manners in this case - end of story, no point in trying to
excuse them by bring out "cultural" differences in this case. In some
cases, yes, but not this one!

"T.R.H." wrote in message
. ..
We have always instilled in our kids the importance of good manners and
treating people with courtesy, good phone manners are especially
important.

The other day my 12 yr old sons friend called, whom has little or no phone
manners at all and usually gives the standard "Is sons name there?, no
please attached. Well, after 3 calls in about 10 minutes the other night
while we were busy doing our annual canning spree, my wife answered the
phone after wiping her hands yet again, said kid was on the phone again
and
just blurted out "I need kids name", my wife called our son to the phone
&
told him it was for him, then told him to ask his friend to be a little
less
rude on the phone next time he called. My son goes to the next room with
the
phone, and a few minutes later brings it back and gives it to my wife,
said
kids mother then proceeded to tear a strip off my wife because her son was
crying in his room for being called "rude". My wife explained to her the
sequence of calls and how we were addressed, and how our kids lose their
phone privileges if we hear them not using their manners etc. The mom
replied "Well, I know other kids name doesn't have the best phone
manners,
and they are probably going to get worse, not better, but we love him the
way he is" and hung up.

My wife was stunned at this reply, looked at me in disbelief and said
"what
the f### was that?!" It is indeed sad that this type of behavior is more
the rule rather than the exception these days, if it were our kid and we
heard he'd addressed someone on the phone like that he would have been the
one on the phone apologizing to the other parent for being rude, THEN
would
have lost phone privileges for a week!

Is this what things are coming to?



Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

S

Is this what things are coming to?

They're already there, and it's a sad byproduct of the "love your children and
accept them the way they are" division of the "tolerance" philosophy that
thinks self-esteem is more important than manners and simple courtesy or that
doing anything to try to alter a child's behavior will leave irreparable
psychological scars. So, we've got a generation of undisciplined spoiled brats
quickly entering adulthood.

x-no-archive:yes
"dejablues" wrote:

Most parents get really ticked when other people reprimand their kids, even
if their kids were in the wrong. That's a simple fact of life, and your
son's friend's mom was probably just reacting to that.

right

I've worked in several different places where people had different phone
manners than I do . I was a market research interviewer in college, and in
recent years have worked in the service office and showroom of a new car
dealer, and currently work in a small 4-person office. I've spent more than
my fair share of time on the phone!One thing I thought kind of odd was that
a few people would hang up without saying "bye" or some closing greeting.
They'd just finish what they were saying and hang up. I never give my name

I never do either. If someone asks for someone and it is clear to me
that it is a wrong number - I say "You must have the wrong number,
there's nobody here by that name." I don't give my name even if they
ask. Farther, if they ask what number they have reached, I respond by
saying "What number were you calling?" And when (or if) they tell me,
I say either - "You have misdialed", or "You must have written it down
wrong because that's the number you reached."

I also do not have any indication on my answering machine as to the
name or number that they have reached. It actually is my daughter's
voice on there and not mine. And I DON'T say - we are not home right
now, or anything like that. The message says "We are probably on line
right now, so if you want to get in touch with us, send an email." I
don't tell them my email address either.


If someone calls and asks for dh, I always at least say "Who shall I
say is calling?" And if dh is doing something that I know he won't
want to have interrupted or if I suspect that it is a telemarketer, or
if he is, in fact, not there, I say "This is Mrs. DH. Can I help
you." WITHOUT saying why I have not called him to the phone. I the
person insists on speaking to DH and won't tell me their name or what
they want, I will not connect them, and will tell them not to call
back.

when I answer the phone. Some people do. It's just personal quirks. Heck, my
45-year-old sister-in-law just says "Is XXX there?" when she calls for my
husband! Not that I want to talk to her anyway!
Next time, if the kids calls and just says "Is XXX there"? say "May I tell
him who is calling?" After a few times he may get the idea.

My parents were really strict on the can vs may thing. If I asked
'can I do' something, they'd say - I don't know, can you? So I
quickly learned that if I wanted to ask permission to do something, I
had to say 'may I'. I don't think that's manners though - I think
that's grammar.

FWIW, I don't think phone manners have anything to do with values. Ted Bundy
was said to have been an extraordinarily polite person.


"T.R.H." wrote in message
...

"T.R.H." wrote in message
. ..

Wash your wife's mouth out with soap. I think that's far more rude
than just not saying please.

For some reason I haven't gotten this post.

When my wife and I are having a private conversation, as this was, this
is
NOT rude as long as I"M not offended by it IMO


First it wasn't clear that it was a private conversation - I got the
idea that your ds was helping with canning or preserving and that you
were all working together at that point. So when I said it was rude I
was saying it in the context of a family conversation.

Second - my experience is that if you are using adult language the
kids will pick it up even if you try to be careful only to use it in
private conversation. When I started to have children, I also stopped
using language like that - not that I ever said the f word much
anyway. Unless you don't care that they use that language of course.

Incidentally - did you ever ask your ds what he said to the other
child?

As far as what MR said, "culture-schmulture" as far as I'm concerned,
bad
manners are bad manners in this case - end of story, no point in trying
to
excuse them by bring out "cultural" differences in this case. In some
cases, yes, but not this one!

As well, my main peeve was not only that the kid was rude, as his last
request was just "I need kids name", it was his moms response that

I suspect he was nervous rather than rude - if your dw was annoyed
with him, he probably picked up on that.

really
got me PO'd, in effect, saying "yeah my kids rude, and will likely get
even
moreso in the future, but thats the way he is"

what the hell is that!!!

cheers




grandma Rosalie

I just wanted to point out that from my experience with a whole bunch
of really nice and polite (in person) teenaged neices and nephews,
phone manners seem to be the last lesson they are able to apply. I
have no idea why. My one nephew in particular was SO RUDE on the phone
once (I said, "Hello?" He mumbled, nearly incoherently, "Can I speak
to uncle [name here]?"-- not even saying hi to me, even though I
hadn't spoken to him or seen him in a few *months* and we get along
very well) that I really thought I had done something to make him not
like me anymore. But the next time we saw him in person, he was his
usual loving and friendly self. When I call the others' houses looking
to speak with their mom or dad (my sister/brother), I usually try to
make a very brief conversation with them before asking for my
sister/brother. It seems that they can't manage this until they're at
least 16!

So, do educate, but also give them a break by not assuming that a teen
with bad phone manners is generally rude or ill-raised.

That said, I would worry about the one whose mom saw fit to yell at
your wife for calling a spade a spade, however inappropriately your
wife did so. I can relate to the "mother bear" instinct, but if your
kid is wrong, you should address that regardless of how it's pointed
out.

In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote:



I never do either. If someone asks for someone and it is clear to me
that it is a wrong number - I say "You must have the wrong number,
there's nobody here by that name." I don't give my name even if they
ask. Farther, if they ask what number they have reached, I respond by
saying "What number were you calling?" And when (or if) they tell me,
I say either - "You have misdialed", or "You must have written it down
wrong because that's the number you reached."

I also don't give my name when I answer the phone, and won't tell people
what number they called. I know some people consider this a little on
the paranoid side, but we have had problems with harrassing phone calls,
and I don't want to do anything that would make that easier!

With the advent of caller-ID and technology that allows call backs, and
living with lots of teens, I now get a surprising number of calls where,
after I say hello, the OTHER person -- the one who placed the call --
says, "Who is this?" I find this astonishing in so many ways! I
generally say something like, "This is the person you called."
Sometimes, the conversations get downright funny -- but, like you, I
have no intention of identifying myself to some stranger on the phone!
Some of these callers get pretty nasty, but then I just hang up.


On the rare occassion when I've used that technology, I introduce myself
first, as in, "Hi, this is XXX; is someone at this number trying to
call me?"

I also do not have any indication on my answering machine as to the
name or number that they have reached. It actually is my daughter's
voice on there and not mine. And I DON'T say - we are not home right
now, or anything like that. The message says "We are probably on line
right now, so if you want to get in touch with us, send an email." I
don't tell them my email address either.

I do have the number; I figure it gives people enough information to
know if they've dialed the wrong number. I used to have our last name
on the voice mail, but don't any more.


meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"Nevermind" wrote in message
om...
I just wanted to point out that from my experience with a whole bunch
of really nice and polite (in person) teenaged neices and nephews,
phone manners seem to be the last lesson they are able to apply. I
have no idea why. My one nephew in particular was SO RUDE on the phone
once (I said, "Hello?" He mumbled, nearly incoherently, "Can I speak
to uncle [name here]?"-- not even saying hi to me, even though I
hadn't spoken to him or seen him in a few *months* and we get along
very well) that I really thought I had done something to make him not
like me anymore. But the next time we saw him in person, he was his
usual loving and friendly self. When I call the others' houses looking
to speak with their mom or dad (my sister/brother), I usually try to
make a very brief conversation with them before asking for my
sister/brother. It seems that they can't manage this until they're at
least 16!

So, do educate, but also give them a break by not assuming that a teen
with bad phone manners is generally rude or ill-raised.


I suspect that you are putting your finger on a more likely cause of phone
curtness: the contact is not visual nor in person. Many individuals are
not ready to say something when the phone is answered [just think of all the
people who "hate" talking to answering machines because "they dont know what
to say", etc.]. One looses all the para-verbal and non-verbal cues that
might have made those conversation openers more socially palatable for the
OP's wife. For how many people is the technology outstripping the ability
to make it work *comfortably* for them? i suspect there are quite a few
folks in that category.

-Aula