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  #11  
Old May 29th 04, 11:01 PM
Marty Billingsley
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Default looking for other perspectives (very long)

In article 846uc.4373$aN1.1335@fe21,
Auntie Em Auntie wrote:
Paula,

Judging from the quality of your writing I can see that you are an extremely
intelligent person. How in the world you could have screwed up your life
this badly is far beyond my ability to comprehend.

You need to adopt this child out to a family (mother and father) who can
give it a normal, healthy, happy life. And you need to get some serious
counseling to improve your self esteem which is apparently very low. You
had no business bringing a child into the world under these circumstances -
and you know it.


Nonsense. Paula, don't listen to this person! You were willing, and
tried hard, to be a mother before -- a single mom, with doner sperm, you
said. So at a minimum you have that! (Yipee!)

Now, you also have somebody in your life who has an interest in your
daughter. Is it possible to relax and not push it and let things run
their course? Maybe put *your* relationship with this guy on hold, and
both of you enjoy your daughter. If that means that occasionally he'll
take her, well then, you get a break! If it just means that you have
somebody to chat with once in a while and relate all the cute things
that your daughter has been doing lately, well that's significant too,
and makes being a single mom not nearly so lonely.

As others have pointed out, this guy might not be dependable. So don't
depend on him -- don't stress out over things that he promises but doesn't
deliver -- but do take advantage of whatever he has to offer. If he
offers money, take it. But don't base your life on getting it. If he
offers to host your daughter on alternate weekends, accept the offer.
But don't get upset if he backs out. That just adds more stress to
your life. Above all, ENJOY YOUR DAUGHTER!!!

Best of luck,
- marty
(single mom to Alex & Andie, 3-year-old girls)
  #12  
Old May 29th 04, 11:01 PM
Paula
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Default looking for other perspectives (very long)

Tony Miller shared the following perspective and
opinions:

On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:30:39 GMT, Paula
wrote:

... snip ...
NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.


Previously, you wrote:

: Immediately following that weekend, I asked him if he was married. He
: told me that he was, implied that he wasn't fully satisfied but gave
: no details, and said that he would "never leave his children".

I submit that this was a lie of omission to get into your pants. So he
already has a history of lying to you. Had he told you at the onset that
he was married, would you have had sex with him?


Please explain the relevance and I will provide the answer.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **
  #13  
Old May 29th 04, 11:20 PM
sue
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Default looking for other perspectives (very long)



Paula wrote:
Tony Miller shared the following perspective and
opinions:


On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:30:39 GMT, Paula
wrote:


... snip ...

NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.


Previously, you wrote:

: Immediately following that weekend, I asked him if he was married. He
: told me that he was, implied that he wasn't fully satisfied but gave
: no details, and said that he would "never leave his children".

I submit that this was a lie of omission to get into your pants. So he
already has a history of lying to you. Had he told you at the onset that
he was married, would you have had sex with him?



Please explain the relevance and I will provide the answer.

Paula



The relevance? You said you could never forgive a deliberate,
intentional lie, yet the basis of your entire relationship is a lie. He
didn't tell you he was married. That was a lie, yet you are trying to
make all kinds of plans and have all kinds of hopes for this
"relationship" based on the pipe dream that 'at least he hasn't lied.'
He lied to you, he lied to his wife, and he lied to his kids.

If you are saying he has never lied to you, then he must have told you
he was married, and you decided to have sex anyway.

  #14  
Old May 29th 04, 11:35 PM
Paula
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Default looking for other perspectives (very long)

sue shared the following perspective and opinions:



Paula wrote:
Tony Miller shared the following perspective and
opinions:


On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:30:39 GMT, Paula
wrote:


... snip ...

NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.

Previously, you wrote:

: Immediately following that weekend, I asked him if he was married. He
: told me that he was, implied that he wasn't fully satisfied but gave
: no details, and said that he would "never leave his children".

I submit that this was a lie of omission to get into your pants. So he
already has a history of lying to you. Had he told you at the onset that
he was married, would you have had sex with him?



Please explain the relevance and I will provide the answer.

Paula



The relevance? You said you could never forgive a deliberate,
intentional lie, yet the basis of your entire relationship is a lie. He
didn't tell you he was married. That was a lie, yet you are trying to
make all kinds of plans and have all kinds of hopes for this
"relationship" based on the pipe dream that 'at least he hasn't lied.'
He lied to you, he lied to his wife, and he lied to his kids.

If you are saying he has never lied to you, then he must have told you
he was married, and you decided to have sex anyway.


Alright, I see what you're saying now.

While I agree that a lie of ommission is still a lie, it is not what I
was referring to as a 'deliberate, intentional lie' (which would be
actually telling me something as fact that one knows not to be true).
Hair splitting, maybe ... but to me the world is hardly ever black and
white, always shades of grey.

I never said 'at least he hasn't lied' ... he has lied to her and most
likely to me too (although I have no example or proof).

And to answer the question: If he had told me during conversation one
that he was married, I don't think it would have progressed the way it
did. I wouldn't have spent so much time talking with him. So the
question would be moot.

BTW: I re-added the cross-post to ASM because I don't know which group
people read, and I don't want to repeat myself.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **
  #15  
Old May 29th 04, 11:54 PM
sue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default looking for other perspectives (very long)



Paula wrote:
sue shared the following perspective and opinions:



Paula wrote:

Tony Miller shared the following perspective and
opinions:



On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:30:39 GMT, Paula
wrote:

... snip ...

NO. And yes, I've thought of that. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I believe
that with communication comes honesty (This is the only promise that I
have asked him to make to me - that he never lie to me. I'm the kind
of person that can never totally forgive a deliberate, intentional
lie.), maybe, maybe, maybe ... I don't know if I could ever truly
trust him, maybe I would always be suspicious and watching.

Previously, you wrote:

: Immediately following that weekend, I asked him if he was married. He
: told me that he was, implied that he wasn't fully satisfied but gave
: no details, and said that he would "never leave his children".

I submit that this was a lie of omission to get into your pants. So he
already has a history of lying to you. Had he told you at the onset that
he was married, would you have had sex with him?


Please explain the relevance and I will provide the answer.

Paula



The relevance? You said you could never forgive a deliberate,
intentional lie, yet the basis of your entire relationship is a lie. He
didn't tell you he was married. That was a lie, yet you are trying to
make all kinds of plans and have all kinds of hopes for this
"relationship" based on the pipe dream that 'at least he hasn't lied.'
He lied to you, he lied to his wife, and he lied to his kids.

If you are saying he has never lied to you, then he must have told you
he was married, and you decided to have sex anyway.



Alright, I see what you're saying now.

While I agree that a lie of ommission is still a lie, it is not what I
was referring to as a 'deliberate, intentional lie' (which would be
actually telling me something as fact that one knows not to be true).
Hair splitting, maybe ... but to me the world is hardly ever black and
white, always shades of grey.


It was certainly a deliberate and intentional lie, because the effect of
withholding the information was that you believed he was single. If a
man invites you to spend the night, or even to date, then the assumption
is that he is single, and his not saying so was a deliberate lie. He
certainly knew that you wouldn't have even taken the trip with him, let
alone slept with him, if he had told you he was married from the start.


I never said 'at least he hasn't lied' ... he has lied to her and most
likely to me too (although I have no example or proof).


You already have proof. You simply refuse to believe it was a lie.
When he invited you out, he allowed you to believe he was single.


And to answer the question: If he had told me during conversation one
that he was married, I don't think it would have progressed the way it
did. I wouldn't have spent so much time talking with him. So the
question would be moot.


Exactly. That's why he lied. He knew the relationship would go nowhere
if he told the truth.


BTW: I re-added the cross-post to ASM because I don't know which group
people read, and I don't want to repeat myself.


oops sorry. You may need to add it back again.

  #16  
Old May 30th 04, 12:09 AM
Paula
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Default looking for other perspectives (very long)

sue shared the following perspective and opinions:



Paula wrote:
sue shared the following perspective and opinions:


...snip...
The relevance? You said you could never forgive a deliberate,
intentional lie, yet the basis of your entire relationship is a lie. He
didn't tell you he was married. That was a lie, yet you are trying to
make all kinds of plans and have all kinds of hopes for this
"relationship" based on the pipe dream that 'at least he hasn't lied.'
He lied to you, he lied to his wife, and he lied to his kids.

If you are saying he has never lied to you, then he must have told you
he was married, and you decided to have sex anyway.



Alright, I see what you're saying now.

While I agree that a lie of ommission is still a lie, it is not what I
was referring to as a 'deliberate, intentional lie' (which would be
actually telling me something as fact that one knows not to be true).
Hair splitting, maybe ... but to me the world is hardly ever black and
white, always shades of grey.


It was certainly a deliberate and intentional lie, because the effect of
withholding the information was that you believed he was single. If a
man invites you to spend the night, or even to date, then the assumption
is that he is single, and his not saying so was a deliberate lie. He
certainly knew that you wouldn't have even taken the trip with him, let
alone slept with him, if he had told you he was married from the start.


I never said 'at least he hasn't lied' ... he has lied to her and most
likely to me too (although I have no example or proof).


You already have proof. You simply refuse to believe it was a lie.
When he invited you out, he allowed you to believe he was single.


I'm sorry that our difference of opinion with respect to what we
consider a "deliberate, intentional lie" strikes you as me refusing to
believe ... the only thing that I refuse to believe is that your
definition is any more correct than mine. It's really a matter of
opinion.


And to answer the question: If he had told me during conversation one
that he was married, I don't think it would have progressed the way it
did. I wouldn't have spent so much time talking with him. So the
question would be moot.


Exactly. That's why he lied. He knew the relationship would go nowhere
if he told the truth.


BTW: I re-added the cross-post to ASM because I don't know which group
people read, and I don't want to repeat myself.


oops sorry. You may need to add it back again.


I will apologize ahead of time if I misunderstand this comment and the
removal was unintentional, but sarcasm really is not productive toward
or conducive to open, honest communication.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **
  #17  
Old May 30th 04, 12:10 AM
Doug Anderson
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Posts: n/a
Default looking for other perspectives (very long)


I've been thinking about your post some more. I guess what you are
trying to figure out is what your future relationship with Dr Zhivago
should be.

It seems to me like you have three basic options:

1) maintain a civil but distant relationship as coparents. You have
no real relationship in this case except through your daughter.
This is the one I think I'd choose since your description of
Z. makes him sound like an irresponsible and undependable sort of
person.

2) Decide you would like him to leave Mrs. Z. for you. Tell him this,
and tell him the options are either: divorce, come be with you, or
option 1 above.

3) Continuing to muddle along not being sure what you want or what you
get. Watch Z. make a hash out of his first family, and likely a
hash out of his relationship with you and your daughter.

I've probably left out other options (Oh, 4: polygamy).

But what seems like a critical issue for you is figuring out which of
these options you actually _want_.

  #18  
Old May 30th 04, 12:25 AM
Paula
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Posts: n/a
Default looking for other perspectives (very long)

Doug Anderson shared the following
perspective and opinions:


I've been thinking about your post some more. I guess what you are
trying to figure out is what your future relationship with Dr Zhivago
should be.

It seems to me like you have three basic options:

1) maintain a civil but distant relationship as coparents. You have
no real relationship in this case except through your daughter.
This is the one I think I'd choose since your description of
Z. makes him sound like an irresponsible and undependable sort of
person.

2) Decide you would like him to leave Mrs. Z. for you. Tell him this,
and tell him the options are either: divorce, come be with you, or
option 1 above.

3) Continuing to muddle along not being sure what you want or what you
get. Watch Z. make a hash out of his first family, and likely a
hash out of his relationship with you and your daughter.

I've probably left out other options (Oh, 4: polygamy).

But what seems like a critical issue for you is figuring out which of
these options you actually _want_.


Add Option (as presented by him): He becomes her "birth-father",
provides financial support, but has no contact with me and contact
with her later in life only if she initiates it.

And you got it, exactly!

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **
  #19  
Old May 30th 04, 12:40 AM
Paula
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default looking for other perspectives (very long)

Paula shared the following perspective
and opinions:

Doug Anderson shared the following
perspective and opinions:


I've been thinking about your post some more. I guess what you are
trying to figure out is what your future relationship with Dr Zhivago
should be.

It seems to me like you have three basic options:

1) maintain a civil but distant relationship as coparents. You have
no real relationship in this case except through your daughter.
This is the one I think I'd choose since your description of
Z. makes him sound like an irresponsible and undependable sort of
person.

2) Decide you would like him to leave Mrs. Z. for you. Tell him this,
and tell him the options are either: divorce, come be with you, or
option 1 above.

3) Continuing to muddle along not being sure what you want or what you
get. Watch Z. make a hash out of his first family, and likely a
hash out of his relationship with you and your daughter.

I've probably left out other options (Oh, 4: polygamy).

But what seems like a critical issue for you is figuring out which of
these options you actually _want_.


Add Option (as presented by him): He becomes her "birth-father",
provides financial support, but has no contact with me and contact
with her later in life only if she initiates it.


Actually, I should have said as presented by his wife to him, and by
him to me...

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **
  #20  
Old May 30th 04, 12:56 AM
Auntie Em
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Posts: n/a
Default looking for other perspectives (very long)

"Ignoramus25241" wrote in message
...
You are a good writer, you are have a capacity for introspection, your
thoughts seem to be well organized, and interests of your daughter
occupy a substantial portion of your mind. Therefore, I believe that
you have the capacity to raise a good daughter alone.

Some problems do not have good solutions, and unfortunately the
problem of providing your daughter with a good father does not have a
good solution -- as the good father does not even exist.

So, I think, a rational approach would be to leave that man alone, get
child support from him, and try to build your life on a foundation of
honesty and realism.

i


Truthfully, Ig, given the quote that follows from the OP, do you really
think that this is even remotely possible? I sure don't.

I have a long history of some pretty sad mistakes with respect to men
and love. All of which I attribute to childhood issues with my father
(about which I am currently seeing a counselor). I am not making
excuses ... I made the choices, and I own up to all of them ... just
giving background information..."


This woman is very emotionally screwed up. And I have YET to see a woman
like this raise a normal, healthy child that isn't as emotionally screwed up
as she is.

Em



 




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