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How Children REALLY React To Control



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 9th 04, 10:51 PM
R. Steve Walz
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Default How Children REALLY React To Control

Doan wrote:

And the **** is coming out of my mouth again! :-)
But I do believe and have proof that my mouth is
FULL OF ****! ;-)
Doan

----------------------
I wouldn't doubt it.
Steve
  #22  
Old June 9th 04, 10:57 PM
R. Steve Walz
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Default How Children REALLY React To Control

Doan wrote:

On 9 Jun 2004, Chris wrote:

In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

: But by and large, the system works. And throwing it out before we're
: positive that we have something that will work better in the real world,
: with real parents and real children, would be foolish.

Once again, Nathan, you appear to be talking about win/win cooperative
nonpunitive discipline as if it were some sort of new untested concept
rather than a set of approaches to dealing with conflict in the
parent/child relationship developed decades ago and used successfully in
thousands of families.

Ah! I just love the logic. :-) Isn't this the same argument that you
don't like about spanking? Afterall, spanking has been used for thousands
of years and BILLIONS of families.

Doan

----------------
LIAR!
No it hasn't, except as an aberration, and evil act everyone
hated you for.

Most tribal peoples leave their kids the hell alone unless
they are in good humor, and they NEVER hit them for ANY reason!!
Steve
  #23  
Old June 9th 04, 11:02 PM
Kane
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Default How Children REALLY React To Control

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 13:23:03 -0700, Doan wrote:

On 9 Jun 2004, Chris wrote:

In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay

wrote:

: But by and large, the system works. And throwing it out before

we're
: positive that we have something that will work better in the real

world,
: with real parents and real children, would be foolish.

Once again, Nathan, you appear to be talking about win/win

cooperative
nonpunitive discipline as if it were some sort of new untested

concept
rather than a set of approaches to dealing with conflict in the
parent/child relationship developed decades ago and used

successfully in
thousands of families.

Ah! I just love the logic. :-) Isn't this the same argument that you
don't like about spanking? Afterall, spanking has been used for

thousands
of years and BILLIONS of families.


Sorry. Not the same logic at all. And no, that's not the argument he
used either.

You overlooked the word "successfully." That's the key.

If all you have is a hammer ever problem looks like a nail.

Some parents have learned about other ways to solve problems than
using a hammer.

And in fact, we now drive nails, or make fastenings with many more
things than hammers and nails.

We've even learned how to line up molecules so materials will bond to
each other without "spanking" them.

In other words.

Parents are improving.

Are you against improving?

Improvement can save a lot of cat's-asses in good wood, avoid a lot of
smashed fingers, and reduce production of a lot of, dare I say it?
Injured children.

Doan


Not hitting, and doing other things instead seems to be too hard for
some. Probably they should think about getting a pet rock.

Kane
  #24  
Old June 9th 04, 11:28 PM
Nathan A. Barclay
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Default How Children REALLY React To Control


"Chris" wrote in message
...
In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

: But by and large, the system works. And throwing it out before we're
: positive that we have something that will work better in the real world,
: with real parents and real children, would be foolish.

Once again, Nathan, you appear to be talking about win/win cooperative
nonpunitive discipline as if it were some sort of new untested concept
rather than a set of approaches to dealing with conflict in the
parent/child relationship developed decades ago and used successfully in


Chris, this is anecdotal evidence. If I argued that there are thousands of
parents who spank and get good results, you would correctly counter that
just because there are thousands of parents who spank and get good results,
that most definitely does not mean that all parents who spank get good
results. So why should I accept the same kind of reasoning from you
regarding non-punitive techniques?

As I keep saying, how well strictly non-punitive techniques work depends on
children's willingness to cooperate. The fact that there are some children,
or even a lot of children who are sufficiently willing to cooperate for
purely non-punitive techniques to be considered "successful" in no way
implies that there aren't other children for whom eliminating parents'
authority to punish would be a disaster. (And that's doubly true -
actually, a lot more than just doubly true - if a lot of parents forced to
use exclusively non-punitive techniques wouldn't put nearly the effort into
them that parents who are highly committed to making non-punitive techniques
work do.)

Further, what evidence do you have regarding whether those "thousands of
families" rely entirely on non-punitive techniques? What evidence do you
have that the parents in those families never punish, and never even raise
the possibility that they might punish if they feel like they have to? And
even if you can find thousands of families where you can be sure that even
the possibility of punishment never comes up, do those reflect the vast
majority of families who are trying to use exclusively non-punitive
techniques, or do a large percentage of parents who would like to use
exclusively non-punitive techniques find that they need at least the
possibility of using punishment as leverage? Keep in mind that knowing that
their parents could punish if they feel the need gives children a bit more
incentive to make non-punitive techniques work than they would have
otherwise.

I'm not trying to say that non-punitive techniques aren't useful. They are.
I'm just challenging your unsupported assertions about how reliably they
work.


  #25  
Old June 9th 04, 11:37 PM
R. Steve Walz
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Posts: n/a
Default How Children REALLY React To Control

Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

"Chris" wrote in message
...
In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

: But by and large, the system works. And throwing it out before we're
: positive that we have something that will work better in the real world,
: with real parents and real children, would be foolish.

Once again, Nathan, you appear to be talking about win/win cooperative
nonpunitive discipline as if it were some sort of new untested concept
rather than a set of approaches to dealing with conflict in the
parent/child relationship developed decades ago and used successfully in


Chris, this is anecdotal evidence. If I argued that there are thousands of
parents who spank and get good results, you would correctly counter -----------------------

The fact is that there ARE NO SUCH RESULTS! You will SAY that they
"had good results", when by your criteria spanking IS ONLY result
that concerns you, and NOT what the child will do in the future,
or whether he is emotionally crippled, and why? BECAUSE BOTH I AND
CHRIS WEEKS KNOW THAT *YOU* are emotionally crippled TOO and COULDN'T
POSSIBLY NOTICE SUCH A THING, BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO PROPER REFERENT!!!!


As I keep saying, how well strictly non-punitive techniques work depends on
children's willingness to cooperate.

----------------------
That's an entirely nonsensial circularity!

*IF* they WERE cooperative, then NO such punishment even *COULD* BE
necessary,

and *IF* they are NOT, then it cannot have the desired effect!!

If you're truthfully willing to stand on such nonsense, then it
proves NOT ONLY that you're an uneducated IDIOT, BUT ALSO INSANE!!


Further, what evidence do you have regarding whether those "thousands of
families" rely entirely on non-punitive techniques?

----------------------------
They may not, no evidence is needed, we all KNOW what WE do when we
are assaulted and coerced, and kids are NOT shown by ANY reseearch
to be AT ALL different from every other ADULT human being!!


I'm not trying to say that non-punitive techniques aren't useful. They are.
I'm just challenging your unsupported assertions about how reliably they
work.

-----------------------
They work, because that is the well-known treatment of one another
that has resulted in all great and good friendships DOWN THRU HISTORY!

While abuse and attempt at coercion ONLY causes revenge formation,
assault, murder, and warfare! Are you so ****ing stupid that you
will not admit that if someone pushes you that you won't turn around
and smack the **** out of them, or if they are bigger that you will
not BOTH: Lose ALL respect for them, and plan longterm REVENGE UPON
THEM!!

Between the obvious success of friendships based on equality and respect
wthout coercion, and the total failures caused by assault
and coercion, what makes you imagine IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS that
you have a SINGLE PHILOSOPHICAL LEG TO STAND ON????????????
Steve
  #26  
Old June 10th 04, 01:21 AM
Nathan A. Barclay
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Default How Children REALLY React To Control


"Chris" wrote in message
...
: In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

[snip]
: But by and large, the system works.

I beg to differ. Punishment is the most heavily overrated child
discipline technique. I posted an article by Gordon the other day about
workshops he has led, inviting participants to list the ways they reacted
to punitive authoritarian control as children. Virtually none of the
reactions were desirable.


I agree that its heavily overrated. That does not, however, imply that
there aren't situations where it is necessary or beneficial.

Which of the reactions listed did you engage in as a child, Nathan?
Note that I don't ask if you engaged in some of them because I know you
did - we all did.


This seems a bit personal. There are limits to how much of my life and
history I want to post publicly, especially with archives like Google to
preserve the information (and it could get preserved in a reply even if I'd
flag it to prevent archiving of my own message). I'll scratch the surface
of the issue a bit, but I don't want to go into detail.

My most serious ongoing negative reaction was when I was in elementary
school, and had to do with being forced to go to school when I thought it
was boring and tedious. That gives me an excellent reason to support
educational choice. But I don't view not requiring children to go to school
at all, or giving children carte blanche to choose "schools" where they can
play all day without learning much, as a viable solution. Some children may
be responsible enough to make good choices about their education without
outside limitations on what choices they can make, but I wouldn't trust
myself at that age to do so.

I'll also admit to having circumvented the rules about bedtime quite a bit
by reading in bed through the light of my open door - and hiding my book if
my father's chair creaked indicating he might be getting up. The very few
times I was caught, I wasn't punished, but I was always afraid that I might
be (and I wouldn't have regarded it as unfair or unreasonable if I was). So
I have no illusions that punishment is anywhere near reliable when kids
expect not to get caught. Knowing that parents consider a behavior serious
enough to be worth punishing over might make enough difference in the
child's thinking to have an impact on the child's behavior - or it might
not.

As for the rest, I exhibited some of those behaviors, but aside maybe from
frequent arguments over chores (in which, looking back, I was generally
being unreasonable), they were neither frequent nor particularly serious.
Then again, my parents weren't all that punitive in their basic outlook.
They were willing to threaten, and to punish if necessary, when discussion
and persuasion didn't work, but punitive techniques weren't their first
preference.

By and large, a system with this many side effects, and with some such
side effects on the list manifesting themselves in every child raised
under it, doesn't "work" very well at all.


I think I'm looking at the glass as three quarters full and you're focusing
on the one quarter that's still empty. Yes, the system has problems, but
most children grow up to be productive citizens who generally respect each
other's rights and legitimate interests. And those who don't are kept in
check enough that most people feel reasonably safe.

That gives us an awful lot to lose if we make a radical change and it fails.
Keep in mind that parents who use purely non-punitive techniques (to the
extent that parents who never resort to even indirect threats of punishment
exist at all) are ones who choose that kind of technique voluntarily, and
who choose to invest the time and effort to make them work. Keep in mind
that at present, parents who try to use non-punitive techniques and don't
succeed can resort to threats and, if necessary, punishment as a back-up.
The jump from that to taking away parents' authority to punish at all for
anything short of criminal behavior would be an enormous one and, I contend,
an extremely dangerous one.


  #27  
Old June 10th 04, 02:18 AM
R. Steve Walz
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Posts: n/a
Default How Children REALLY React To Control

Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

"Chris" wrote:

Which of the reactions listed did you engage in as a child, Nathan?
Note that I don't ask if you engaged in some of them because I know you
did - we all did.


My most serious ongoing negative reaction was when I was in elementary
school, and had to do with being forced to go to school when I thought it
was boring and tedious. That gives me an excellent reason to support
educational choice. But I don't view not requiring children to go to school
at all, or giving children carte blanche to choose "schools" where they can
play all day without learning much, as a viable solution. Some children may
be responsible enough to make good choices about their education without
outside limitations on what choices they can make, but I wouldn't trust
myself at that age to do so.

-------------------------
You simply don't know yourself well enough to grasp the principle of
boredom. Without being coerced, once that stops, a child sooner or later
leaves behind his block to creativity caused by the revenge formation
due to abuse, and he starts being curiously interested in
learning things again, usually quite intently! He need only be offered
something interesting without being forced to engage in it and he will
be a fan for life!

This was proven at numerous "free schools" including the famous
Summerhill run by A.S. Neill. Kids, who when they came decided to
play for as much as several YEARS, to get rid of their revenge
formation for their previous abuse, all had caught up and even
surpassed their classmates in other schools upon testing only a
year or so after finally becoming ultimately bored and deciding
to come to some classes again!! And they became extremely creative
people with interesting inventive careers indeed, numerous among
them getting higher degrees with honors.


I'll also admit to having circumvented the rules about bedtime quite a bit
by reading in bed through the light of my open door - and hiding my book if
my father's chair creaked indicating he might be getting up. The very few
times I was caught, I wasn't punished, but I was always afraid that I might
be (and I wouldn't have regarded it as unfair or unreasonable if I was).

--------------
Of course you would, and why lie to us and yourself about this now??
You obviously felt it immensely unfair or else you wouldn't have been
reading then!!!! God you're repressed!!!

Our kids read or slept or listened to music or TV or computer just
exactly as they LIKED, and came and went as they liked, and they
thereby learned their OWN INTERNAL self-regulation for THEIR OWN
purposes, and didn't have to undergo ANY shock of first freedom
when they moved from our home to their first place of their own!

They already KNEW all that! Did they abide our wishes that they
call? Not always, but when we cried once before them they always
called us thereafter (they told us they didn't realize how much we
worried) and they to always called us to tell us they were safely
someplace for the night. If you're hitting your kids just because
you can't dare show them your emotion then you're a REAL SICKEE!!


So
I have no illusions that punishment is anywhere near reliable when kids
expect not to get caught. Knowing that parents consider a behavior serious
enough to be worth punishing over might make enough difference in the
child's thinking to have an impact on the child's behavior - or it might
not.

--------------------------------
Ridiculous, punishment is NOT at ALL useful or effective when the
activity is THE CHILD'S HUMAN RIGHT!!!!!!!


As for the rest, I exhibited some of those behaviors, but aside maybe from
frequent arguments over chores (in which, looking back, I was generally
being unreasonable), they were neither frequent nor particularly serious.
Then again, my parents weren't all that punitive in their basic outlook.
They were willing to threaten, and to punish if necessary, when discussion
and persuasion didn't work, but punitive techniques weren't their first
preference.

----------------
Which you have to thank for your small remaining creativity.


By and large, a system with this many side effects, and with some such
side effects on the list manifesting themselves in every child raised
under it, doesn't "work" very well at all.


I think I'm looking at the glass as three quarters full and you're focusing
on the one quarter that's still empty. Yes, the system has problems, but
most children grow up to be productive citizens who generally respect each
other's rights and legitimate interests. And those who don't are kept in
check enough that most people feel reasonably safe.

-------------------------
YOU need a course in psychology, and statistical info on depression!!!


That gives us an awful lot to lose if we make a radical change and it fails.

-------------------------
That's like believing that since you keep hitting your head on the
cabinet door that taking it off the hinges or wearing a hat might
somehow do something terrible!! It's idiotic!!


Keep in mind that parents who use purely non-punitive techniques (to the
extent that parents who never resort to even indirect threats of punishment
exist at all) are ones who choose that kind of technique voluntarily, and
who choose to invest the time and effort to make them work. Keep in mind
that at present, parents who try to use non-punitive techniques and don't
succeed can resort to threats and, if necessary, punishment as a back-up.
The jump from that to taking away parents' authority to punish at all for
anything short of criminal behavior would be an enormous one and, I contend,
an extremely dangerous one.

------------------
What a deluded asshole you are!

None of the above are beneficial AT ALL, and ALL are extremely HARMFUL
AND ABUSIVE! You're quite insane, deranged, and damaged!!

My kids were raised that way, with their rights respected, never
coerced, never threatened or forced, and they are both very happy
and open people, and both are degreed computer professionals.
Steve
  #28  
Old June 10th 04, 02:37 AM
Doan
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Posts: n/a
Default How Children REALLY React To Control


On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

But I do believe and have proof that my mouth is
FULL OF ****!
Steve


You are right! :-)

Doan

  #29  
Old June 10th 04, 03:22 AM
Nathan A. Barclay
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Posts: n/a
Default How Children REALLY React To Control


"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
Nathan A. Barclay wrote:


Our kids read or slept or listened to music or TV or computer just
exactly as they LIKED, and came and went as they liked, and they
thereby learned their OWN INTERNAL self-regulation for THEIR OWN
purposes, and didn't have to undergo ANY shock of first freedom
when they moved from our home to their first place of their own!


I find it curious that someone who claims to have such strong respect for
his children's rights and desires would adopt as arrogant, disrespectful,
and insulting a tone as you do toward other adults. How would you expect
your children to react to the kind of tone you are using here on this
newsgroup? What would your children think if they told you they felt one
way about something, and you tried to insist that they could not possibly
feel that way and must feel some other way entirely? And why would you
expect such a tone to be any more successful with adults than it would be
with your children?


  #30  
Old June 10th 04, 03:50 AM
Doan
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Posts: n/a
Default How Children REALLY React To Control


Simple answer - Steve is a "never-spanked" kid! :-)

Doan

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Nathan A. Barclay wrote:


"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
Nathan A. Barclay wrote:


Our kids read or slept or listened to music or TV or computer just
exactly as they LIKED, and came and went as they liked, and they
thereby learned their OWN INTERNAL self-regulation for THEIR OWN
purposes, and didn't have to undergo ANY shock of first freedom
when they moved from our home to their first place of their own!


I find it curious that someone who claims to have such strong respect for
his children's rights and desires would adopt as arrogant, disrespectful,
and insulting a tone as you do toward other adults. How would you expect
your children to react to the kind of tone you are using here on this
newsgroup? What would your children think if they told you they felt one
way about something, and you tried to insist that they could not possibly
feel that way and must feel some other way entirely? And why would you
expect such a tone to be any more successful with adults than it would be
with your children?




 




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