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Disagreement about third child



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 13th 05, 03:03 AM
lenny fackler
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Circe wrote:
"lenny fackler" wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm definitely bringing my own perpective in because it's the only

one
that I have the authority to speak about.
I have 2 happy healthy kids and my relationship with my wife is

good.
I'm 100% sure I don't want any more kids. She's a little less

sure.
I'm trying to picture her being so insistent on having another baby
that she would break up the marriage.


Could you imagine her being so insistent on having the first or the

second
baby that she would have broken up the marriage over it?


The first maybe. Because we knew we wanted to have at least one. If I
had changed my mind about that after we got married it would've been a
big deal.
It's hard to say for the second.
We always said one or two.

If you can, then
you are deluding yourself to believe that just because you have two

happy,
healthy kids, her desire to have another child could not be just as
overwhelming as her desire to have the first or the second. I'm not

saying
that it *is* that overwhelming, mind you, just that the fact that you
already have two children doesn't have to play into the equation at

all.


It may not come into play concerning ones desire to have another, but
it would be a factor in whether or not to stay married if there's a
disagreement about having more.
Breaking up your existing happy family because you want an additional
child seems ludicrous. Not that the desire should be ignored, but
there's got to be a way to deal with it that's not destructive.

It certainly would have nothing
to do with any definition of family values that I can think of.
Lifestyle is broad though. What type of lifestyle would this be
consistent with?

Some people have family values and/or lifestyles that involve having

more
than two children. In some cases, a *lot* more than two children. For

some
people, having a large number of children may be a religious

imperative, as
well. One would hope that a couple would both have the same desire

for a
large family and/or the same religious imperatives, of course, but

people
can and do change in the course of a marriage.


Certainly differences in religious beliefs can be a marriage breaker.
Moreso if they develop later in the relationship. But the decision to
have more babies would be secondary to those beliefs.


I'll be honest: I have a far harder time understanding the position

of the
partner who is dead-set against having another child than the

position of
the partner who really wants that other child. Maybe that's because,

even
when my husband I decided we wouldn't be having any more children, we

still
want more children. But once you have children, having more children

doesn't
change anything essential: whether you have more or not, you're still
parents with children!


That's true and even though I wasn't gung ho about having a second I
don't have any regrets now. It's just hard to imagine doing it again.
The youngest is almost potty trained, we're just getting to the point
where we can travel again, all of the baby clothes and toys are ready
to be cleared out of the storage room where I can expand my workshop
and home brewery, my wifes body is in pre-baby shape ;-), etc.


At the same time, I feel the wishes of the partner who doesn't want

another
child take precedence over the wishes of the partner who does.

But I can see how the views of a spouse who wants more children and a

spouse
who does not could collide and result in what is commonly called, in

the
industry, "irreconcilable differences". IOW, it winds up being more a

matter
of the world views of the partners no longer meshing than about

having a
another child.


Yeah, I agree with that.

--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic

(3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt

slogan)

  #22  
Old April 13th 05, 03:23 AM
Circe
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"lenny fackler" wrote in message
oups.com...
Circe wrote:
Could you imagine her being so insistent on having the first or the
second baby that she would have broken up the marriage over it?


The first maybe. Because we knew we wanted to have at least one. If I
had changed my mind about that after we got married it would've been a
big deal.
It's hard to say for the second.
We always said one or two.

Well, you know, my husband and I went into having children thinking the same
as you: one or two. We really didn't even consider having three initially.
But after the first one was born, my husband pretty quickly decided that two
wouldn't be quite "enough" and that he wanted three. It took me a little
longer to come around to that POV, but I pretty quickly discovered that I
*always* want one or two kids: I just happen to keep wanting the one or two
I don't have yet g!

It's a weird phenomenon and impossible for me to explain on any rational
basis, because I'm pefectly contented with the children I have; it's
certainly not a matter of wanting to replace or better the ones I've got, as
they couldn't be more wonderful. It's just that, well, there could be more
children to be wonderful, if you see what I mean!

If you can, then
you are deluding yourself to believe that just because you have two
happy, healthy kids, her desire to have another child could not be just

as
overwhelming as her desire to have the first or the second. I'm not
saying that it *is* that overwhelming, mind you, just that the fact that
you already have two children doesn't have to play into the equation
at all.


It may not come into play concerning ones desire to have another, but
it would be a factor in whether or not to stay married if there's a
disagreement about having more.
Breaking up your existing happy family because you want an additional
child seems ludicrous. Not that the desire should be ignored, but
there's got to be a way to deal with it that's not destructive.

And, of course, one way to deal with that desire to have another child, even
if only one of the partners is completely sold on the idea. Another way is
for the partner who wants the other child to come to the place I've reached,
which is that while my heart may want another child, my head knows it won't
work for any number of reasons.

I'll be honest: I have a far harder time understanding the position
of the partner who is dead-set against having another child than the
position of the partner who really wants that other child. Maybe that's
because, even when my husband I decided we wouldn't be having
any more children, we still want more children. But once you have
children, having more children doesn't change anything essential:
whether you have more or not, you're still parents with children!


That's true and even though I wasn't gung ho about having a second I
don't have any regrets now. It's just hard to imagine doing it again.


Well, I'm definitely with you there. My youngest is 3yo, and while I truly
*adore* babies, the idea of doing the whole pregnancy-childbirth-infancy
24-7 again isn't as appealing as it once was (especially with my 41st
birthday looming!).

The youngest is almost potty trained, we're just getting to the point
where we can travel again,


Goodness, why would you let a baby/toddler keep you from travelling if you
want to? We've been on three trips to Europe and one to Mexico since the
youngest was 7 months old. (I'll admit, it was easier to travel with him at
7 months old than at 24 months--that was sort of interesting, mainly from a
standpoint of the "bull in the china shop" factor--but the last two trips at
2y9m and 3yo were pretty easy, even though he's still in diapers).

I know, I know, a lot of people aren't up for travelling with little kids.
People think we're nuts to do it. But I think that most people would find it
a lot of easier than they *imagine* it would be if they'd just be optimistic
and do it (which is pretty much how we approach it).

all of the baby clothes and toys are ready
to be cleared out of the storage room where I can expand my workshop
and home brewery,


Okay, now I'm with you. The home brewery is *very* important g!

my wifes body is in pre-baby shape ;-),


I have to say, my husband likes me in "baby" shape. He sometimes jokes that
I should put on 20 lbs. just so he can relive the pregnant wife experience
for a little while.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)


  #23  
Old April 13th 05, 03:49 AM
Kathy Cole
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In article ,
Banty wrote:

Why, exactly, is it more ethical (or even not unethical at all) to force
another into parenting a child than to force another not to have a child?


The deception that would be involved in forcing someone into parenting
another child against their wishes is what makes that more unethical.

And I would dispute the suggestion that there's force involved in
declining to have another child; there may be a breakup of the
relationship in order to get that additional child (or children), but
the partner who doesn't want the additional child doesn't get to force
the partner who does to stay in the relationship.
  #24  
Old April 13th 05, 04:23 AM
Ericka Kammerer
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lenny fackler wrote:

I'm definitely bringing my own perpective in because it's the only one
that I have the authority to speak about.
I have 2 happy healthy kids and my relationship with my wife is good.
I'm 100% sure I don't want any more kids. She's a little less sure.
I'm trying to picture her being so insistent on having another baby
that she would break up the marriage. It certainly would have nothing
to do with any definition of family values that I can think of.
Lifestyle is broad though. What type of lifestyle would this be
consistent with?


What I mean is that it's not like someone would have the
same life with two kids as with three (or six, or a dozen). The
person who wants more kids probably wants more than just the exact
same life as now, just with one more kid. It's tied up with a whole
set of values (is it more important to have a big family or to be
able to send every child to whatever college they want to go to? etc.)
and a whole bunch of lifestyle expectations (better to have more
kids or to go on big vacations every year? etc.). And, of course,
no one ever said that people's hopes and dreams and desires are
always rational. Frankly, having *any* children isn't very rational
by a whole lot of measures. All the logic in the world doesn't
necessarily remove the desire to have children, and some feel
that desire strongly enough that it is a very powerful motivator.

Best wishes,
Ericka

  #25  
Old April 13th 05, 08:46 AM
Mary Ann Tuli
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Ericka Kammerer wrote:
lenny fackler wrote:

Maybe so, but if one person wants an additional child so badly that
they would cause, or accept, or simply allow the destruction of their
family, it would almost seem to me indicative of a mental illness or at
least some serious underlying issues that having more kids isn't going
to solve.



I don't think that's necessarily true. Your statement
is predicated upon certain values assumptions which not everyone
might share. Also, the decision about having more kids tends to
involve more than just the presence or absence of a child. It's
also about family values and lifestyle and so forth. The person
who very much wants another child likely has different ideas about
those other things all wrapped up in the decision as well.

Best wishes,
Ericka

That might be true, but it would seem better to me to work on
what you *do* have rather than what you *don't* have. Why would you
risk breaking a marriage and changing the lives of your existing
children for something you don't have...albeit something you desire
greatly?

Mary Ann

  #26  
Old April 13th 05, 08:50 AM
Mary Ann Tuli
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lenny fackler wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

lenny fackler wrote:


Ericka Kammerer wrote:


It's a really tough situation, and can even be a
marriage-breaker in some cases.


When the issue is 'kids' vs. 'no kids' maybe, but you think a woman
would break up a marriage because her husband doesn't want a third?
That seems insane to me.
In my opinion, if a couple already has two healthy children and
disagree about having a third, the partner not wanting another


child

clearly has the upper hand.


Of course, because it's not ethical to force the other
parent into parenting another child. However, there are
certainly women (and men) who have felt such a strong desire
for another child that they were unable to continue in a
marriage where that could not happen. One hopes such decisions
are made only after a best faith effort on both sides, and
counseling, and so forth, but if after all that, the bottom
line is that the desire for another child is paramount, it's
likely to spell the end of the marriage.



Maybe so, but if one person wants an additional child so badly that
they would cause, or accept, or simply allow the destruction of their
family, it would almost seem to me indicative of a mental illness or at
least some serious underlying issues that having more kids isn't going
to solve.


You're saying that if someone accepts that they will not have another
child they have some serious underlying issues? I think acceptance (not
resignation) is a good thing.

Mary Ann

  #27  
Old April 13th 05, 12:04 PM
Banty
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In article , Mary Ann Tuli says...

lenny fackler wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

lenny fackler wrote:


Ericka Kammerer wrote:

It's a really tough situation, and can even be a
marriage-breaker in some cases.


When the issue is 'kids' vs. 'no kids' maybe, but you think a woman
would break up a marriage because her husband doesn't want a third?
That seems insane to me.
In my opinion, if a couple already has two healthy children and
disagree about having a third, the partner not wanting another


child

clearly has the upper hand.

Of course, because it's not ethical to force the other
parent into parenting another child. However, there are
certainly women (and men) who have felt such a strong desire
for another child that they were unable to continue in a
marriage where that could not happen. One hopes such decisions
are made only after a best faith effort on both sides, and
counseling, and so forth, but if after all that, the bottom
line is that the desire for another child is paramount, it's
likely to spell the end of the marriage.



Maybe so, but if one person wants an additional child so badly that
they would cause, or accept, or simply allow the destruction of their
family, it would almost seem to me indicative of a mental illness or at
least some serious underlying issues that having more kids isn't going
to solve.


You're saying that if someone accepts that they will not have another
child they have some serious underlying issues? I think acceptance (not
resignation) is a good thing.


Accepting that there will be one more child is also a good thing. Accepting
compromises within marriage is a Good Thing.

Banty

  #28  
Old April 13th 05, 01:08 PM
Ericka Kammerer
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Mary Ann Tuli wrote:

Ericka Kammerer wrote:


I don't think that's necessarily true. Your statement
is predicated upon certain values assumptions which not everyone
might share. Also, the decision about having more kids tends to
involve more than just the presence or absence of a child. It's
also about family values and lifestyle and so forth. The person
who very much wants another child likely has different ideas about
those other things all wrapped up in the decision as well.



That might be true, but it would seem better to me to work on
what you *do* have rather than what you *don't* have. Why would you
risk breaking a marriage and changing the lives of your existing
children for something you don't have...albeit something you desire
greatly?


Well, sure, but since when have people always been
100 percent rational? As I said, hopefully a couple in such
a situation would do a lot of talking and get counseling and
so forth, but if that doesn't work, it's very likely to lead
to trouble. And, of course, the person who's being inflexible
about having more kids is just as involved as the person
who's being inflexible about having another, barring objective
impediments to having another (e.g., can't adequately care for
another child financially, etc.). It's just all about being
able to communicate and come to some terms that both people
can live with.

Best wishes,
Ericka

  #29  
Old April 13th 05, 01:39 PM
dragonlady
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Posts: n/a
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In article 8iW6e.6908$%c1.477@fed1read05, "Circe"
wrote:

Maybe so, but if one person wants an additional child so badly that
they would cause, or accept, or simply allow the destruction of their
family, it would almost seem to me indicative of a mental illness or at
least some serious underlying issues that having more kids isn't going
to solve.


Would you say the same if the couple were childless and one wanted one or
more children while the other didn't? The desire to have more children than
one currently has isn't more or less valid because one either does or does
not have a particular number of them at present.


The main difference is that breaking up a marriage when there are NO
kids is between just two adults. Breaking up a marriage that already
has one or more kids because one of you wants MORE kids and one doesn't
has a negative effect on innocent children, so I'd be more inclined to
think that both have more of a moral obligation to find a way to resolve
this that does NOT end in divorce.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

  #30  
Old April 13th 05, 03:12 PM
lenny fackler
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Posts: n/a
Default


Circe wrote:
"lenny fackler" wrote in message
oups.com...
Circe wrote:
Could you imagine her being so insistent on having the first or

the
second baby that she would have broken up the marriage over it?


The first maybe. Because we knew we wanted to have at least one.

If I
had changed my mind about that after we got married it would've

been a
big deal.
It's hard to say for the second.
We always said one or two.

Well, you know, my husband and I went into having children thinking

the same
as you: one or two. We really didn't even consider having three

initially.
But after the first one was born, my husband pretty quickly decided

that two
wouldn't be quite "enough" and that he wanted three. It took me a

little
longer to come around to that POV, but I pretty quickly discovered

that I
*always* want one or two kids: I just happen to keep wanting the one

or two
I don't have yet g!

It's a weird phenomenon and impossible for me to explain on any

rational
basis, because I'm pefectly contented with the children I have; it's
certainly not a matter of wanting to replace or better the ones I've

got, as
they couldn't be more wonderful. It's just that, well, there could be

more
children to be wonderful, if you see what I mean!

If you can, then
you are deluding yourself to believe that just because you have

two
happy, healthy kids, her desire to have another child could not

be just
as
overwhelming as her desire to have the first or the second. I'm

not
saying that it *is* that overwhelming, mind you, just that the

fact that
you already have two children doesn't have to play into the

equation
at all.


It may not come into play concerning ones desire to have another,

but
it would be a factor in whether or not to stay married if there's a
disagreement about having more.
Breaking up your existing happy family because you want an

additional
child seems ludicrous. Not that the desire should be ignored, but
there's got to be a way to deal with it that's not destructive.

And, of course, one way to deal with that desire to have another

child, even
if only one of the partners is completely sold on the idea. Another

way is
for the partner who wants the other child to come to the place I've

reached,
which is that while my heart may want another child, my head knows it

won't
work for any number of reasons.

I'll be honest: I have a far harder time understanding the

position
of the partner who is dead-set against having another child than

the
position of the partner who really wants that other child. Maybe

that's
because, even when my husband I decided we wouldn't be having
any more children, we still want more children. But once you have
children, having more children doesn't change anything essential:
whether you have more or not, you're still parents with children!


That's true and even though I wasn't gung ho about having a second

I
don't have any regrets now. It's just hard to imagine doing it

again.

Well, I'm definitely with you there. My youngest is 3yo, and while I

truly
*adore* babies, the idea of doing the whole

pregnancy-childbirth-infancy
24-7 again isn't as appealing as it once was (especially with my 41st
birthday looming!).

The youngest is almost potty trained, we're just getting to the

point
where we can travel again,


Goodness, why would you let a baby/toddler keep you from travelling

if you
want to?


One didn't slow us too much. With two, flying became impractical.
Since then we've stuck to low key road trips to the beach and camping.


We've been on three trips to Europe and one to Mexico since the
youngest was 7 months old. (I'll admit, it was easier to travel with

him at
7 months old than at 24 months--that was sort of interesting, mainly

from a
standpoint of the "bull in the china shop" factor--but the last two

trips at
2y9m and 3yo were pretty easy, even though he's still in diapers).

I know, I know, a lot of people aren't up for travelling with little

kids.
People think we're nuts to do it. But I think that most people would

find it
a lot of easier than they *imagine* it would be if they'd just be

optimistic
and do it (which is pretty much how we approach it).


I like the idea of taking them everywhere, but it hasn't been as
enjoyable in practice. I'm starting to formulate some big plans for
the next few years though.
The last couple of trips we've taken have been without the kids, which
we couldn't do when they were younger.
This brings up another issue. We have family close to us and when we
only had one child there were numerous offers to babysit for us. When
we added a second those offers trickled down to almost nothing.
As they get older it's easier to find an occasional sitter.

all of the baby clothes and toys are ready
to be cleared out of the storage room where I can expand my

workshop
and home brewery,


Okay, now I'm with you. The home brewery is *very* important g!

my wifes body is in pre-baby shape ;-),


I have to say, my husband likes me in "baby" shape. He sometimes

jokes that
I should put on 20 lbs. just so he can relive the pregnant wife

experience
for a little while.
--


I don't care as much as she does about her being in shape. But she's
happy and that's a good thing. When she starts to think about having
another baby I think that one of the thing she forgets is how miserable
she was in the late stages of pregnancy and early post partum.

 




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