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Sleep and older children



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 21st 06, 08:50 PM posted to misc.kids
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Default Sleep and older children


"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
Oh, I definitely think it's natural for them to drift,
and I'd be thrilled if they started the school day later for
them. However, until and unless that happens, the reality of
their lives is that they have to be up and functional at an
obscenely early hour of the morning. Encouraging their
schedule to drift substantially later just makes it more
difficult.


In my experience it only takes a day or two to readjust. They might
be tired the first day of school, but they're also excited and running
on adrenaline. Then they crash that night. After that, they're fine.

So I don't see the point in waking them up early all summer long just
to avoid one or two days of adjustment.

I understand that you are not the type who likes to sleep in, and so
you don't want them to either. That's fine -- it's your decision. I
just don't buy the argument that it's better for them in any real
way -- particularly not for the purposes of keeping to a school
schedule.

Bizby


  #22  
Old April 21st 06, 09:29 PM posted to misc.kids
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Default Sleep and older children

bizby40 wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
Oh, I definitely think it's natural for them to drift,
and I'd be thrilled if they started the school day later for
them. However, until and unless that happens, the reality of
their lives is that they have to be up and functional at an
obscenely early hour of the morning. Encouraging their
schedule to drift substantially later just makes it more
difficult.


In my experience it only takes a day or two to readjust. They might
be tired the first day of school, but they're also excited and running
on adrenaline. Then they crash that night. After that, they're fine.


Mine take a lot longer to adjust.

So I don't see the point in waking them up early all summer long just
to avoid one or two days of adjustment.


Frankly, I don't have to wake them early, since
they're early risers to begin with. However, I can see
DS1 drifting towards later wakings ever so slightly. I
don't mind them sleeping in a bit during the summer (heck,
I *wish* they'd sleep in a bit!), but I do expect folks up
and ready to go at a reasonable hour. Weekends are family
time, and I don't really expect to have to give up half of
it because someone wants to stay up late and sleep in.
For the summer, there are still things to do during the
day. If I wait to get out until noon, I'm screwed because
then it's naptime!

I understand that you are not the type who likes to sleep in,


Huh? Actually, I'm very much a night owl and would
much prefer to stay up late and sleep in. That is not, however,
the reality of my life, nor is it the reality of theirs. So,
we get up and get going and take care of business.

and so
you don't want them to either. That's fine -- it's your decision. I
just don't buy the argument that it's better for them in any real
way -- particularly not for the purposes of keeping to a school
schedule.


To me, it's not just a school schedule. I don't like
going though the adjustment, so that is one aspect of it,
but mostly it's just that I don't think anyone gets to lie
around half the day and stall everyone else's day because
they want to stay up late at night. Other families may be
able to accommodate everyone shifting their schedule later,
but in our family, there are things to get done and people
who need a decent night's sleep not to be cranky and unbearable
to live with. So, we get up and get moving. And really,
although it's not something every family needs to do, I
don't think there's anything wrong with expecting folks to
get up and get going in the morning. My family would have
gone ballistic if I had thought as a teen that I could sleep
in until lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer.

Best wishes,
Ericka
  #23  
Old April 21st 06, 09:42 PM posted to misc.kids
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Default Sleep and older children


"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
Oh, I definitely think it's natural for them to drift,
and I'd be thrilled if they started the school day later for
them. However, until and unless that happens, the reality of
their lives is that they have to be up and functional at an
obscenely early hour of the morning. Encouraging their
schedule to drift substantially later just makes it more
difficult.


In my experience it only takes a day or two to readjust. They might be
tired the first day of school, but they're also excited and running on
adrenaline. Then they crash that night. After that, they're fine.

So I don't see the point in waking them up early all summer long just to
avoid one or two days of adjustment.

Actually I always needed a few days of major lie-ins at the start of the
holidays. Like 12ish. Then on the whole late rising (10ish) on the days I
could. I never had a problem with the readjusting, even if I had always
risen late during the holidays. If I didn't have the time to do those
lie-ins then I would struggle through the next term health wise.
Also my term time schedule for rising was 7:30-7:45 Monday to Friday, about
10-12 Saturday depending on how tired I was, then about 8:00 (for tennis) on
Sunday. Again, I needed to have that lie in regularly, but when I knew I had
to rise, it wasn't a problem.
Debbie

I understand that you are not the type who likes to sleep in, and so you
don't want them to either. That's fine -- it's your decision. I just
don't buy the argument that it's better for them in any real way --
particularly not for the purposes of keeping to a school schedule.

Bizby



  #24  
Old April 22nd 06, 01:33 AM posted to misc.kids
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Default Sleep and older children


Sue wrote:
For the parents of older children, when did you stop telling your kids when
to go to bed and letting them decide when to go to sleep? This can be during
the school year and summer please.



I can't really remember (this is really straining my memory cells). I
know my mom called me in the morning all the way through high school,
and in college I had a clock radio and freshman year we had lights out
at 10:30. There was a girl in my dorm who didn't want to go to bed at
10:30, so she used to knit argyle socks in the dark until she wanted
to go to sleep. I found this unimaginable - even just knitting
argyles in the light was more than I would have been able to do.
Before I went off to college, and after freshman year IN college, I
did read and sometimes I wouldn't turn off the light until pretty
late. I still do that.

My sister is a night owl, and she has always been hard to get up in
the morning.

I'm pretty sure that my kids always got themselves up early. I think
we are all early bird types. DD#1 would get up to eat breakfast with
her dad (dh) when she was in kindergarten and he would leave about 6
or 6:30 IIRC. DD#1 (and also dd#3) needed their sleep, so although
they got up early, they took naps right up to first grade, and there
was never any problem with them going to bed at a reasonable time.

DD#2 would get up early and practice an instrument, and in hs she
would ride a motorcycle down to the barn (kids weren't allowed to be
out on the road in a car before 6 am but they didn't think of
restricting motorcycles) so that she could ride and groom the horse
and get back and shower before school. This was totally her own idea.

Most of the problems I observe with my grandchildren has to do with
their getting their homework done so that they can go to bed at a
reasonable hour, because some of them have so many after school
activities that they can't do it in the afternoon.

I do remember being friends with the wife of a co-worker - actually a
student in dh's PG school class who was a lark (early riser) married
to a complete night owl. Night owl doesn't do in the Navy. The Navy
is for larks. Anyway they had a very active boy and they had to tag
team him. He'd stay up until 2 am with his dad, and then his mom
would be up at 6 am with him.




grandma Rosalie
  #25  
Old April 22nd 06, 03:21 AM posted to misc.kids
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Default Sleep and older children


"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

Frankly, I don't have to wake them early, since
they're early risers to begin with.


??? Then I'm a bit surprised you weighed in on this issue in the way
you have. I have one of each. DS is usually the first one up on the
weekends and all summer. DD likes to sleep in, and 10 is common for
her, sometimes it's later.

Huh? Actually, I'm very much a night owl and would
much prefer to stay up late and sleep in. That is not, however,
the reality of my life, nor is it the reality of theirs. So,
we get up and get going and take care of business.


Well, sure, but getting up because you need to for whatever reason is
different than just deciding that everyone needs to be up by X:00 just
because.

To me, it's not just a school schedule. I don't like
going though the adjustment, so that is one aspect of it,
but mostly it's just that I don't think anyone gets to lie
around half the day and stall everyone else's day because
they want to stay up late at night. Other families may be
able to accommodate everyone shifting their schedule later,
but in our family, there are things to get done and people
who need a decent night's sleep not to be cranky and unbearable
to live with. So, we get up and get moving. And really,
although it's not something every family needs to do, I
don't think there's anything wrong with expecting folks to
get up and get going in the morning. My family would have
gone ballistic if I had thought as a teen that I could sleep
in until lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer.


If your only issue is that they need enough sleep to get up and do the
things they need to do during the summer, then I have no argument with
that. It sounded like you were saying that they needed to get up
early all summer long because not doing so would somehow mess them up
for the school year, and I don't see that. I did indeed sleep to and
past lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer when I was a teen.
I was also usually up until past dawn reading, so I had a pretty
typical 7-8 hours of sleep daily, it just wasn't normally at night.

I was in the top few percent of my high school class, made dean's list
in college, and when I landed my first 8-5 job, was in bed by 11:00
every night so I could be up and fresh and ready to work on time. The
key to me is to have a sleep schedule that works for you.

Bizby


  #26  
Old April 22nd 06, 02:34 PM posted to misc.kids
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Default Sleep and older children

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
I completely wouldn't worry about the "it's not fair"
charge. It's *FINE* for older kids to have more privileges,
and it's *FINE* for kids who have earned a privilege with
appropriate decision making to have a privilege not granted
to kids who have not made good decisions and thus not earned
the privilege. Now, it may be more than it's worth to deal
with the fuss over the perceived unfairness, but to some
extent, I think it's *important* for kids to go through the
process of earning privileges along with commensurate
responsibilities as they get older and more mature.


Oh I understand that and the older ones have gotten privledges, but with
this particular issue, I am not going to go there because we already have
enough sleep problems with this particular child. Her room is on our level
and her sister's rooms are upstairs. If they are up and about, she will
never go to sleep and it would be a nightmare.

On the other hand, I also wouldn't feel one bit
guilty about not allowing things to go haywire in the
summer. As you point out, *you* don't get a summer break
and still need a decent night's sleep. I also think that
it just isn't good for anyone to muck with their sleep
schedule too much. As they get older, every day they
sleep in until whenever encourages a behavior that becomes
harder and harder to break when it comes time to get in
the groove when the school year starts. It also starts
a pattern of thinking that says I *deserve* to sleep in
whenever I don't have to go to school/work/whatever, which
leads to a lot of wasted mornings. I think lie-ins should
be special occasion sorts of things (late nights too). So,
even in summer, and even with older kids, and even if they
didn't have any morning obligations, I'm still not on board
with unregulated bed times/wake times if the result is that
they embark on a relatively consistent pattern of staying
up late and sleeping in. If they self-regulate well, and
just occasionally stay up late or sleep in, that's no
biggie.


Thank you Ericka. I feel much better about not letting them stay up to all
hours in the summer. For some reason, I was feeling bad about having them in
their rooms at 10 pm during the summer, but as long as they are quiet and
don't keep hubby and myself awake, I don't mind if they read or listen to
music. I work at home, so they don't necessairly have to be up and about at
any certain time, but as past summers have been, it seems everything is just
so chaotic because we don't have our routines in place. My oldest sometimes
says that she can't wait for school to start because then we have a good
routine. So that's my clue that I still need to have our routines in place.
I was allowed to sleep in until I wanted and so far I have let the girls
sleep in until they want. It usually goes that dd1 is up first, then dd2 and
finally dd3 gets up much later than everyone else.

Again, thanks everyone for your input. I feel much better about this.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)



  #27  
Old April 22nd 06, 02:52 PM posted to misc.kids
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Default Sleep and older children

bizby40 wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

Frankly, I don't have to wake them early, since
they're early risers to begin with.


??? Then I'm a bit surprised you weighed in on this issue in the way
you have. I have one of each. DS is usually the first one up on the
weekends and all summer. DD likes to sleep in, and 10 is common for
her, sometimes it's later.


I have lived with a number of late risers, and
tend that way myself, and occasionally have had issues
with the kids if I don't watch their sleep time.

Huh? Actually, I'm very much a night owl and would
much prefer to stay up late and sleep in. That is not, however,
the reality of my life, nor is it the reality of theirs. So,
we get up and get going and take care of business.


Well, sure, but getting up because you need to for whatever reason is
different than just deciding that everyone needs to be up by X:00 just
because.


If the whole family is going to bed at 2am and
waking at noon, and they can still get done what needs
doing that's one thing. If one member of the family is
sleeping until noon, he or she is missing out on a
significant part of family life. I think it creates
distance in the family. You don't get to do as many
things as a family because by the time one member
wakes up, it's too late. So I don't really care if
they get up at 7:30 or 8:00 on a non-school day, but
if they fall into a habit of sleeping until 11:00am
or noon because they're staying up until all hours,
I don't think that's okay. They're missing out on
a lot of family life that way.

To me, it's not just a school schedule. I don't like
going though the adjustment, so that is one aspect of it,
but mostly it's just that I don't think anyone gets to lie
around half the day and stall everyone else's day because
they want to stay up late at night. Other families may be
able to accommodate everyone shifting their schedule later,
but in our family, there are things to get done and people
who need a decent night's sleep not to be cranky and unbearable
to live with. So, we get up and get moving. And really,
although it's not something every family needs to do, I
don't think there's anything wrong with expecting folks to
get up and get going in the morning. My family would have
gone ballistic if I had thought as a teen that I could sleep
in until lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer.


If your only issue is that they need enough sleep to get up and do the
things they need to do during the summer, then I have no argument with
that. It sounded like you were saying that they needed to get up
early all summer long because not doing so would somehow mess them up
for the school year, and I don't see that.


As I said, it's both. *MY* kids don't adjust in
a day or two to the school schedule, especially if they
have drifted more than an hour or so off schedule. Kids
are different in this regard. But the bigger issue in my
mind is the lack of family integration when part of the
family is AWOL for much of the time. Even if there aren't
specific assigned chores or whatever, the kid who's sleeping
until noon misses out on impromptu pancakes for breakfast,
or messes up a last minute decision to go on a family outing,
or isn't around even to hang out and chat with folks.

I did indeed sleep to and
past lunchtime on a regular basis during the summer when I was a teen.
I was also usually up until past dawn reading, so I had a pretty
typical 7-8 hours of sleep daily, it just wasn't normally at night.

I was in the top few percent of my high school class, made dean's list
in college, and when I landed my first 8-5 job, was in bed by 11:00
every night so I could be up and fresh and ready to work on time. The
key to me is to have a sleep schedule that works for you.


I think it's key to have one that works for the
*family* as well. It's not just about the individual.

Best wishes,
Ericka
  #28  
Old April 22nd 06, 03:01 PM posted to misc.kids
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Default Sleep and older children

Sue wrote:

Thank you Ericka. I feel much better about not letting them stay up to all
hours in the summer. For some reason, I was feeling bad about having them in
their rooms at 10 pm during the summer, but as long as they are quiet and
don't keep hubby and myself awake, I don't mind if they read or listen to
music. I work at home, so they don't necessairly have to be up and about at
any certain time, but as past summers have been, it seems everything is just
so chaotic because we don't have our routines in place. My oldest sometimes
says that she can't wait for school to start because then we have a good
routine. So that's my clue that I still need to have our routines in place.
I was allowed to sleep in until I wanted and so far I have let the girls
sleep in until they want. It usually goes that dd1 is up first, then dd2 and
finally dd3 gets up much later than everyone else.


Hey, at least you know there's at least one meaner
mommy than you out there ;-) My kids' bedtimes are 7:30 (2yo),
8:00 (8yo), and 8:30 (11yo) and they don't change all year!
They get up about 7:00am, and despite the early bedtimes I
still have to sometimes haul out the 8yo and 11yo for
school in the morning, so I have no temptation whatsoever
to move their bedtimes later or even suggest they can stay
up a while reading or chatting. Clearly, they need the
sleep. In the summer or on days when they don't need to
get up in the morning, I might allow a special occasion.
For instance, they're up late sometimes for concerts or
for special dinners with family/friends or during sleepovers
or whatever. Like as not, they'll still wake at about
the same time the next morning (though the 11yo is starting
to sleep in a bit after a late night), so it means a rough
day the next day, but sometimes special occasions are worth
it. But in the summer, there are lots of times they're
going to bed at their regular times with their friends
still outside playing and raising a ruckus. And really,
they don't even complain because they know as well as I
do that the next day is not good when they're out of
sorts. Plus, if we're having a morning when there's not
a lot to do, they might get pancakes out of the deal or
a trip somewhere fun before we have to take care of other
business ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka
  #29  
Old April 22nd 06, 03:22 PM posted to misc.kids
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Default Sleep and older children


Ericka Kammerer wrote:
If the whole family is going to bed at 2am and
waking at noon, and they can still get done what needs
doing that's one thing. If one member of the family is
sleeping until noon, he or she is missing out on a
significant part of family life. I think it creates
distance in the family. You don't get to do as many
things as a family because by the time one member
wakes up, it's too late. So I don't really care if
they get up at 7:30 or 8:00 on a non-school day, but
if they fall into a habit of sleeping until 11:00am
or noon because they're staying up until all hours,
I don't think that's okay. They're missing out on
a lot of family life that way.


We're all slow starters on the weekend. We're too go-go-go all week
long. I like weekends to be for resting/recharging, and having few
commitments.

It's true these days, the older I get, the harder it is for me to sleep
in all that much. But for example this morning I slept in until 9:30.
I'm having my coffee and lounging in bed with my laptop, taking my
sweet time waking up. Kids aren't here with us today, but if they were,
they'd just be getting up now. None of us are talkative for the first
few hours in the morning anyway, so forget quality family time in the
morning. Nobody's missing anything around here if they sleep in past
noon.

That's how I like weekends - we're never out the door before noon. On
purpose I do not schedule any activities before noon, having learned
the hard way that it sucks to have to be ready and rush out the door on
a weekend morning for tennis or swimming or whatever. We all just end
up stressed and grumpy. On the weekends we just want a break from all
that. We go out as a family when everyone is ready, even if we have to
wait around for the laggards, that's okay, because I hate having to
crack the whip and keep everyone on schedule on the weekends.

This was how it was for me growing up too. My mother was and still is a
serious night owl. She never minded us staying up until dawn reading in
bed, and then sleeping in well past lunchtime, because she did the same
thing herself. In summers we didn't go to camp or anything like that.
During school year we also didn't have any extracurricular activities,
not like my kids have today, nor did we attend afterschool. Pace was
slower and less stressful, and it continues like that when we visit my
parents in the summer.

jen

  #30  
Old April 22nd 06, 03:51 PM posted to misc.kids
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Default Sleep and older children

shinypenny wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:
If the whole family is going to bed at 2am and
waking at noon, and they can still get done what needs
doing that's one thing. If one member of the family is
sleeping until noon, he or she is missing out on a
significant part of family life. I think it creates
distance in the family. You don't get to do as many
things as a family because by the time one member
wakes up, it's too late. So I don't really care if
they get up at 7:30 or 8:00 on a non-school day, but
if they fall into a habit of sleeping until 11:00am
or noon because they're staying up until all hours,
I don't think that's okay. They're missing out on
a lot of family life that way.


We're all slow starters on the weekend. We're too go-go-go all week
long. I like weekends to be for resting/recharging, and having few
commitments.


Like I said, if the whole family can be on that
schedule, fine. I'm all for weekends being more restful,
but we can't afford to lay about until noon on weekends
on any kind of regular basis. Heck, with the toddler's
nap, that would mean no going out until late afternoon! ;-)
(Obviously, that's a temporary issue, but will affect
us probably for two more years, so it isn't really short
term either!).

Best wishes,
Ericka
 




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