kane your an idiot!

Your so full of yourself that it's down right scarey. Kids should have the
same rights as adult? We shouldn't use corporal punishment to help raise our
kids? Kids should have the same respect of physical space as adults? What
planet did you get off of?

You wonder why we have a moral decay of our society
today........................it's people like you kane. You think that
talking, grounding and denying your child certain privilages is enough. In
most cases that may very well be true but not always. So are you the type of
parent, when all else fail, that will physically discipline your child if
need be. Have you bothered to explain to your child that they are
responsible for there actions. That when it's time to go out in society and
they make a mistake that there discipline is not always going to be a long
talk? That depending on the crime will depend on what there punishment is?

Just in case your wondering kane, if yous child makes a mistake that hurts
another, YOUR responsible for there actions. That means you pay for there
mistakes whether it is monitary, property damage or incarceration. So when
your kids really messes up and your getting the crap sued out of you, your
in jail or your equal rights child gets a judgement handed down that they
can be tried as an adult. You think about those rights your so willing to
throw on children like pieces of candy.

The sad part about all this discussoin kane is that it's all with the best
intentions but has caused us, as a society, to go from one extreme to
another. While it's wrong to abuse kids physically or emotionally, it's just
as wrong to toss out a tool that works. The fact is kane, fear can be just
as healthy an emotion as it can be unhealthy. If you know that your going to
loose part of your freedom becasue of your actions then it's likely you may
act differently. Fear is peppered through out our society, through every
society. Every action causes a reaction.

Now to answer your question, yes I use corporal punishment with my child. I
have a 13 y/o daughter that can be the biggest hell raiser that walks the
face of the earth. Does she fear me..............no. Atleast not untill she
steps over the line to far, then she knows she is going to get a good sound
spanking for it. Heres the rule kane that works for us, she wants more
responsiblity............she like going out with her friends, skating,
boating etc. Like any teenager, she wants to experiment, test her limits so
to speak. So I gave her more responsiblity but along with it comes the
responsibility for her actions. I let her know she is responsible for her
actions and that she has work to do around the house she is responsible for.
She has a responsiblity on her conduct, attire and who she associates with.
That depending on the severity of the misconduct will dictate her punishment
whether it's grounding, no privilages and receiving a spanking. One more
thing, we do not discipline without the other parent present, it's for
protection of ourselves and to monitor the person administering the
discipline so it doesn't get out of hand.

Here is the amazing part kane, contrary to your beliefs, the ones you like
to throw all over this group, is our daughter will actually get upset if she
doesn't receive a proper punishment. If she feels she has gone to far then
she expects a spanking. She has told me on more than one occassion that it
makes her feel that we care and love her. That her friends parents, who
don't spank them, says that they run wild, dress like they want and act like
they don't care about anyone but themselves.

She is a real trouper about it, if after being warned many times that her
action will warrant a spanking, when it's time to receive it, she doesn't
complain, whine, barter or try to get out of it. She take her punishment, as
painful as it maybe, with the knowledge that she went to far and is being
held accountable for her actions. We make it a point to let her know that
while her punishment is a spanking now, that as she becomes an adult, she
will still be held accountable for her actions, just with a different form
of punishment.

Hell kane, even the most primate of the animal kingdom physically
disciplines there off spring. So you tell me, as humans, bound by this
society we created, have we gone to far? Is a tool being tossed out that
could be useful if used properly? Instead of getting rid of it, should we
retrain our society to use it properly, with respect to ourselves and our
children? You know kane there is a difference between hitting and spankings.
If I walk up to you and punch you in the face, that's hitting. If I tell you
that your going to get spanked for misconduct, then you conduct yourself
inappropriately and then get spanked for it, that's just what it says it
is........................a spanking.

N1BB

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 14:55:34 -0500, "No1BadBoy"
wrote:

Your so full of yourself that it's down right scarey.

I'd hope your fear would be sufficient to improve both your intellect
and your grammar. I fear not.

As for "full of yourself." I'd have someone read your post to you
outloud. You'll blush at your hubris if you are honest.

Kids should have the
same rights as adult?

I just love it when folks are either too stupid to understand what
they read, and assign meaning to my posts that aren't there, or are
able to read and still assign incorrect meanings.

I suppose they do that because they are afraid to debate the actual
point or points I am making.

We shouldn't use corporal punishment to help raise our
kids?

You go ahead and do whatever you wish. Those humans raised without it
do very well indeedy. In fact they are so good at life and getting
what they want from it YOU and the other spanking compulsives, and the
results and outcomes of that nonsense that results in the degenerates
of society, can't even see them as they quietly go about taking this
planet from you and yours.

Kids should have the same respect of physical space as adults?

That could mean many different things. But if you mean children's
physical space should be as respected as an adult....well, yes! In
fact more so. They cannot defend their space as an adult would his or
hers, and so they can be exploited and injured and not taught proper
respect of others space along with their own.

What
planet did you get off of?

I'm moved by your cleverness.

You wonder why we have a moral decay of our society
today........................it's people like you kane.

No, actually it's the spanking compulsives. In the US alone about 90%
of families spank. Now if you are going to look at the moral decay,
which would it be, 90% or 10% that would have the most impact, all
other things being equal? Eh?

You think that
talking,

Actually if the talking is of the right kind...that is establishing
for the child a sense of support, information resources, maintaining
safety for the child to learn in, and pointing out examples and in
time...about age six, beginning to discuss cause and effect, and
abstract reasoning one mig.......excuse me. Is this all going by you?

grounding and denying your child certain privilages is enough.

Those raised with punishment cannot imagine another way. I suggest you
go find a Parent Effectiveness Training course and sit through it, say
four times. At some point you may well get it.....we can and do
negotiate with each other for what we want, and we can do the same
with children. I've taught thousands to do it.

In
most cases that may very well be true but not always.

No, in very few cases does punishment of any kind actually produce the
outcome you wish. The child may, and often does, fake it until you
aren't looking and then go about learning what they need to learn
despite you and other punishment compulsives.

Or they sicken, become a bundle of neurotic compensatory thoughts, and
actions, and then run for public office, eventually.

So are you the type of
parent, when all else fail, that will physically discipline your
child if
need be.

But "all else" will "fail" only if your repertoire is exceedingly
limited, and if your intent and manner is simply another form of brute
force parenting.

Often the best thing to do it the very last thing you control freaks
would think of or allow yourself to do. Your egos are so weak and you
are so fearful of a little child that it would never occur to you to
say apologize, admit you did it wrong and ask the child if you might
start over with better information for them.

After all, ALL child behavior is learning behavior, whether you like
it or not. If you approach their "bad" (as in unwanted by you)
behavior with the same kind of supportive helpfulness parents so often
extend to "good" (as in WANTED by you) behavior, you'll be way ahead
of the child.

Force puts the power, eventually, in the hands of the child..and they
hate and despise you for being weak and being able only to teach them
how to deal with others by force.

Have you bothered to explain to your child that they are
responsible for there actions.

Actually I began LONG before they had the capacity to understand and
reason...but my intent at that point wasn't to change their behavior
on the spot...but simply to lay down a few brain pathways of
information storage for later recall when they could use it, by virtue
of them having the brain development........UN****ED UP BY ME OR
ANYONE ELSE FORCING THEM.

That when it's time to go out in society and
they make a mistake that there discipline is not always going to be a
long
talk?

My kids grew up, and so did the children of other families, to be able
to get along far better in society than the average. They know how to
handle mistakes, if they make them, and how to correct the errors or
faults...with little resistance themselves, or created in others.

In other words, I modeled for them, the most powerful teaching tool of
all, the way to being a good citizen, and all that entails.

That depending on the crime will depend on what there punishment is?

Crime? My kids? Hardly. As a mature adult my daughter, for instance,
wouldn't even go round a temp agency placement to take a full time job
with a company that wanted to skate on the required fee payment to the
agency. They offered her cash to quit and come back.

My son is more likely to stop a crime than commit one. Much more.

Just in case your wondering kane, if yous child makes a mistake that
hurts
another, YOUR responsible for there actions.

Oh please. Not after they reach their majority, and in fact not even
before. There are many caused for people, children included, to hurt
each other that are NOT traceable back to the parent.

But I'd advise that if you think that way you give considerable weight
to the idea that spanking and punishing may well be the model they are
using when YOUR children do hurt someone.

Mine do not do such things. And they are in their 40s.

That means you pay for there
mistakes whether it is monitary, property damage or incarceration.

Ah, I see your parents spanked you very soundly and often, but far to
high up your back.

So when
your kids really messes up and your getting the crap sued out of you,
your
in jail or your equal rights child gets a judgement handed down that
they
can be tried as an adult.

Since my children are adults, on the off chance they might be accused
of a crime and charged and tried, they would be tried as adults. And
I'd have nothing to do with it except to provide what support they
needed.

You think about those rights your so willing to
throw on children like pieces of candy.

And I'm not about to be sued, or in jail, and my equal rights child,
even if they did commit a crime are so moral they wouldn't for a
second consider blaming me for their mistake.

The sad part about all this discussoin kane is that it's all with the
best
intentions but has caused us, as a society, to go from one extreme to
another.

The extreme I see is, if you have any sense or knowledge of history,
going from being bloody savages to becoming civilized, and more so
with each passing decade. Now if the rest of the world could just get
moving.

While it's wrong to abuse kids physically or emotionally, it's just
as wrong to toss out a tool that works.

Sadly the tool is abusive physically and emotionally. Hitting teaches
fear, and revenge, and that when they are in a position to impose
their power over another that is the means they will use.

The fact is kane, fear can be just
as healthy an emotion as it can be unhealthy.

Yep, it's like fire, or a knife. One can cook, make steel, or burn
down a house, and one can excise a cancer, or cut someone's head off.

To point out to a child that something is dangerous and then hit them,
or even the reverse, does nothing but shift the fear to fear of YOU.

Until they can reason sufficiently the parent's responsibility is to
NOT let the child endanger themselves. That is, supervise sufficiently
for safety. All the while building the child's knowledge base about
what is and isn't safe.

If you know that your going to
loose part of your freedom becasue of your actions then it's likely
you may
act differently. Fear is peppered through out our society, through
every
society. Every action causes a reaction.

I don't abide by laws because of the penalty involved, nor for any
external reward for that matter. I abide by them because they are a
contract between me and others, all others. And unless they are a bad
law their intent was and is to make our lives in company bearable, and
even at times profitable.

Now to answer your question, yes I use corporal punishment with my
child.

I didn't ask you a question. I don't recall posting to you ever
before. If you are referring to something I said, either quote it so I
have the context of your comments, or attribute my post in yours. It's
easy. Your newsreader can do that.

I
have a 13 y/o daughter that can be the biggest hell raiser that walks
the
face of the earth.

Doesn't surprise me. Most spanked children have similar compensatory
behaviors. Some go wild, some retreat in to various sick fantasies
that create a facade of compliance over a seething mess that can
explode.

Does she fear me..............no. Atleast not untill she
steps over the line to far, then she knows she is going to get a good
sound
spanking for it.

Odd. I didn't spank nor punish my children and except for the usual
exploratory behaviors they were easy to raise. Lots of energy, and
some things that YOU might have spanked for but I wouldn't, like my
daughter at three deciding, as she went to see if the neighbor kids
could come out and play, that it was too hot and showing up naked at
the neighbor's door.

We just laughed.

Heres the rule kane that works for us, she wants more
responsiblity............she like going out with her friends,
skating,
boating etc. Like any teenager, she wants to experiment, test her
limits so
to speak.

Yep. And no, it's not "so to speak." It is an imperative of nature.
They MUST and WILL do it or become sick and disabled. Seriously.

So I gave her more responsiblity but along with it comes the
responsibility for her actions. I let her know she is responsible for
her
actions and that she has work to do around the house she is
responsible for.

Boy, are you dumb. My kids clammered for jobs around the house. I just
held out on them a bit. Kept telling them they weren't quite ready,
about three to six months before they were, and let them work into the
job tiny bits at a time.

By the time my daughter was 7 (when I knew she could safely handle it)
she would NOT let anyone else launder her clothes. Same for my son at
the same age. It's the old Tom Sawyer and the Whitewash Fence ploy.
Nothing to it...not rocket science.

She has a responsiblity on her conduct, attire and who she associates
with.
That depending on the severity of the misconduct will dictate her
punishment
whether it's grounding, no privilages and receiving a spanking. One
more
thing, we do not discipline without the other parent present, it's
for
protection of ourselves and to monitor the person administering the
discipline so it doesn't get out of hand.

What a cold and harsh life for a child. What a view of the world that
is just as cold and manipulative and force based.

Here is the amazing part kane, contrary to your beliefs, the ones you
like
to throw all over this group, is our daughter will actually get upset
if she
doesn't receive a proper punishment.

Yep, I've seen it many times. Many children will, most as a matter of
fact, will adopt whatever method their parent decides to parent them
with. From birth on up they believe the parenting they get is the
parenting they deserve....no matter how kindly or how harsh.

If she feels she has gone to far then
she expects a spanking.

It's called "attention getting." My children used another way to get
attention. It usually consisted of asking for a hug, or a story, or
can we go crawfishin' today dad, or daddy will you go shopping with me
an help me pick my jr high clothes.

She has told me on more than one occassion that it
makes her feel that we care and love her.

Let me tell you what is much more likely happening.

Any intense experience by a human produces a response....it's referred
to in behavioral circles as an "abreaction."

Main Entry: ab·re·ac·tion
Pronunciation: "ab-rE-'ak-sh&n
Function: noun
the expression and emotional discharge of unconscious material (as a
repressed idea or emotion) by verbalization especially in the presence
of a therapist —compare CATHARSIS 2 —ab·re·act /-'akt/ verb

It is basically a kind of catharsis. It was used by the N. Koreans and
Chinese running POW camps for American and UN prisoners in their
brainwashing techniques.

This was the first war we were in that there was a serious problem
with turncoats. Our boys were treated to intense experiences to break
them down, and many came to regard their captors as right and to be
admired.

That her friends parents, who
don't spank them, says that they run wild, dress like they want and
act like
they don't care about anyone but themselves.

Well, I'm stunned, absolutely stunned, that you would know kids from
that 10% of the population of kids that aren't spanked at all.

I have every reason to believe those are all spanked children.

The truth is nearly all parents spank, then the kids hit their teens
and the teen pretty much is a product of their prior experience of
being parented.

She is a real trouper about it, if after being warned many times that her
action will warrant a spanking, when it's time to receive it, she
doesn't
complain, whine, barter or try to get out of it.

Why do you warn many times?

She take her punishment, as
painful as it maybe, with the knowledge that she went to far and is
being
held accountable for her actions.

She has you dancing. The sudden pain feels good to her, cathartic. In
fact it may well have some sexual overtones to it if you are hitting
her buttocks. She may well end up, when she is sexually active,
seeking spanking as an erotic tool. You might want to read up on this.

We make it a point to let her know that
while her punishment is a spanking now, that as she becomes an adult,
she
will still be held accountable for her actions, just with a different
form
of punishment.

She may well push her boyfriends or spouse to spank her. And frankly
you are lying to her. There are very few instances where adults are
punished for their mistakes. Adults get away with all kinds of
misbehavior kids cannot....why do you think kids can hardly wait to
grow up?

Let's see now: getting drunk, having wild sex for recreation, quiting
a job, running away from home...and more...adults get to do such
things with little or no consquence. So you are teaching your child
the world is one way, when it fact it is another.

That is precisely the reason that when I taught my own children I put
the emphasis on them being their own judge, and pretty harsh they were
too. High standards..higher than I would have held them to.

I always asked them how a behavior they were doing made them feel
inside, about themselves. Many a little tear was shed when I asked
that because above all I had my children's trust...and the very
thought of doing something that might seem less than honest or good
bothered them....and bothered them when I wasn't present, something
doubt you child has, or if she does, will lose very quickly under peer
pressure.

I feel for you, and for her. She won't be prepared if all she has to
remember is that there was pain and force. Once free of the pain and
force she'll go her own way and maybe even overcompensate. The 60's
were like that.

I recall because I did street recovery work with druggies. Kids, like
yours.

Hell kane, even the most primate of the animal kingdom physically
disciplines there off spring.

You'd be surprised how rarely that really is. And animals do not have
the same experience when their parent gives them pain. They will not
reach the age of reason and fight back, they just leave, or......

Among those few animals that continue to reside in packs some are very
savage to each other as adults.

If you feel that model is appropriate for humans then I do hope we run
you spanking compulsives off the planet a little quicker. You are
dangerous folks.

And that is very easy to see...just look around the world at the
results of brute force parenting.

So you tell me, as humans, bound by this
society we created, have we gone to far?

No, the awareness of the effects of brutal parenting are becoming more
known all the time to more people. In time the hitting of children,
even punishing them, will be an archaic relic that school children
will review in hologram projections and marvel at.....marvel that
humans were once so ignorant and unintelligent.

Just as we look at primates.

Is a tool being tossed out that
could be useful if used properly?

Define "properly."

Instead of getting rid of it, should we
retrain our society to use it properly, with respect to ourselves and
our
children?

I can recall NO time in any child's life that I've known, or any
adult, for that matter, where someone hitting them was experienced as
respectful.

It is respectful to make your needs and wants known clearly. It is
respectful to say why when asked. It is respectful to laugh when a
child errs in funny ways, and to hug them and teach them better ways.

You know kane there is a difference between hitting and spankings.

Ah the biggie. I've had people pull that out of the hat so many times
I can predict it the instant I meet them in the forum of spanking.

If I walk up to you and punch you in the face, that's hitting.

Sure.

If I tell you
that your going to get spanked for misconduct, then you conduct
yourself
inappropriately and then get spanked for it, that's just what it says
it
is........................a spanking.

Nice try. All you have to do is look at the two actions in the real
world. Each requires that you use your hand, lift it and swing it, and
either you "spanked" my face, or hit that kid bottom.

They are no different other than the open hand. So tell me if you
slapped me in the face would that be a spanking?

And if you hit my with your open hand, a slap, to my buttocks or the
back of my legs would that be a spanking?

I'll have your ass in jail so quick it will make your head spin, and a
jail hospital at that, because the instant you even threaten to hit me
and call it something else I'll flatten your ass so quick you'll think
your name is pancake.

I've done it before. A number of times.

Basically you are lying to yourself so you will not have to both deny
your parents their treatment of you, and admit to yourself you are
assualting your child.

You are assaulting your child, but get by with it because you live in
a society still sick with it's origins. We are something of a mess.
Most of us ran from Europe, or came as indentured, or as slaves, and
those here before us were routinely destroyed and or enslaved.

This is a nation founded on savagry...no question about it, and trying
to work its way toward civilization. I'm rather proud of the progress
we've made, because in fact we are far ahead of most others.

This is just one of the last holdouts against civilizing ourselves.
Hitting our children and thinking it teaches them anything useful
about how to organize and live in a society.

N1BB

Thanks for the information. And do try to stop hitting your daughter,
and calling it something else. And remember, you are sexually exciting
her, very likely.

Kane

Ah! Typical response from a "never-spanked" boy! ;-)

Doan

On 9 Aug 2004, Kane wrote:

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 14:55:34 -0500, "No1BadBoy"
wrote:

Your so full of yourself that it's down right scarey.

I'd hope your fear would be sufficient to improve both your intellect
and your grammar. I fear not.

As for "full of yourself." I'd have someone read your post to you
outloud. You'll blush at your hubris if you are honest.

Kids should have the
same rights as adult?

I just love it when folks are either too stupid to understand what
they read, and assign meaning to my posts that aren't there, or are
able to read and still assign incorrect meanings.

I suppose they do that because they are afraid to debate the actual
point or points I am making.

We shouldn't use corporal punishment to help raise our
kids?

You go ahead and do whatever you wish. Those humans raised without it
do very well indeedy. In fact they are so good at life and getting
what they want from it YOU and the other spanking compulsives, and the
results and outcomes of that nonsense that results in the degenerates
of society, can't even see them as they quietly go about taking this
planet from you and yours.

Kids should have the same respect of physical space as adults?

That could mean many different things. But if you mean children's
physical space should be as respected as an adult....well, yes! In
fact more so. They cannot defend their space as an adult would his or
hers, and so they can be exploited and injured and not taught proper
respect of others space along with their own.

What
planet did you get off of?

I'm moved by your cleverness.

You wonder why we have a moral decay of our society
today........................it's people like you kane.

No, actually it's the spanking compulsives. In the US alone about 90%
of families spank. Now if you are going to look at the moral decay,
which would it be, 90% or 10% that would have the most impact, all
other things being equal? Eh?

You think that
talking,

Actually if the talking is of the right kind...that is establishing
for the child a sense of support, information resources, maintaining
safety for the child to learn in, and pointing out examples and in
time...about age six, beginning to discuss cause and effect, and
abstract reasoning one mig.......excuse me. Is this all going by you?

grounding and denying your child certain privilages is enough.

Those raised with punishment cannot imagine another way. I suggest you
go find a Parent Effectiveness Training course and sit through it, say
four times. At some point you may well get it.....we can and do
negotiate with each other for what we want, and we can do the same
with children. I've taught thousands to do it.

In
most cases that may very well be true but not always.

No, in very few cases does punishment of any kind actually produce the
outcome you wish. The child may, and often does, fake it until you
aren't looking and then go about learning what they need to learn
despite you and other punishment compulsives.

Or they sicken, become a bundle of neurotic compensatory thoughts, and
actions, and then run for public office, eventually.

So are you the type of
parent, when all else fail, that will physically discipline your
child if
need be.

But "all else" will "fail" only if your repertoire is exceedingly
limited, and if your intent and manner is simply another form of brute
force parenting.

Often the best thing to do it the very last thing you control freaks
would think of or allow yourself to do. Your egos are so weak and you
are so fearful of a little child that it would never occur to you to
say apologize, admit you did it wrong and ask the child if you might
start over with better information for them.

After all, ALL child behavior is learning behavior, whether you like
it or not. If you approach their "bad" (as in unwanted by you)
behavior with the same kind of supportive helpfulness parents so often
extend to "good" (as in WANTED by you) behavior, you'll be way ahead
of the child.

Force puts the power, eventually, in the hands of the child..and they
hate and despise you for being weak and being able only to teach them
how to deal with others by force.

Have you bothered to explain to your child that they are
responsible for there actions.

Actually I began LONG before they had the capacity to understand and
reason...but my intent at that point wasn't to change their behavior
on the spot...but simply to lay down a few brain pathways of
information storage for later recall when they could use it, by virtue
of them having the brain development........UN****ED UP BY ME OR
ANYONE ELSE FORCING THEM.

That when it's time to go out in society and
they make a mistake that there discipline is not always going to be a
long
talk?

My kids grew up, and so did the children of other families, to be able
to get along far better in society than the average. They know how to
handle mistakes, if they make them, and how to correct the errors or
faults...with little resistance themselves, or created in others.

In other words, I modeled for them, the most powerful teaching tool of
all, the way to being a good citizen, and all that entails.

That depending on the crime will depend on what there punishment is?

Crime? My kids? Hardly. As a mature adult my daughter, for instance,
wouldn't even go round a temp agency placement to take a full time job
with a company that wanted to skate on the required fee payment to the
agency. They offered her cash to quit and come back.

My son is more likely to stop a crime than commit one. Much more.

Just in case your wondering kane, if yous child makes a mistake that
hurts
another, YOUR responsible for there actions.

Oh please. Not after they reach their majority, and in fact not even
before. There are many caused for people, children included, to hurt
each other that are NOT traceable back to the parent.

But I'd advise that if you think that way you give considerable weight
to the idea that spanking and punishing may well be the model they are
using when YOUR children do hurt someone.

Mine do not do such things. And they are in their 40s.

That means you pay for there
mistakes whether it is monitary, property damage or incarceration.

Ah, I see your parents spanked you very soundly and often, but far to
high up your back.

So when
your kids really messes up and your getting the crap sued out of you,
your
in jail or your equal rights child gets a judgement handed down that
they
can be tried as an adult.

Since my children are adults, on the off chance they might be accused
of a crime and charged and tried, they would be tried as adults. And
I'd have nothing to do with it except to provide what support they
needed.

You think about those rights your so willing to
throw on children like pieces of candy.

And I'm not about to be sued, or in jail, and my equal rights child,
even if they did commit a crime are so moral they wouldn't for a
second consider blaming me for their mistake.

The sad part about all this discussoin kane is that it's all with the
best
intentions but has caused us, as a society, to go from one extreme to
another.

The extreme I see is, if you have any sense or knowledge of history,
going from being bloody savages to becoming civilized, and more so
with each passing decade. Now if the rest of the world could just get
moving.

While it's wrong to abuse kids physically or emotionally, it's just
as wrong to toss out a tool that works.

Sadly the tool is abusive physically and emotionally. Hitting teaches
fear, and revenge, and that when they are in a position to impose
their power over another that is the means they will use.

The fact is kane, fear can be just
as healthy an emotion as it can be unhealthy.

Yep, it's like fire, or a knife. One can cook, make steel, or burn
down a house, and one can excise a cancer, or cut someone's head off.

To point out to a child that something is dangerous and then hit them,
or even the reverse, does nothing but shift the fear to fear of YOU.

Until they can reason sufficiently the parent's responsibility is to
NOT let the child endanger themselves. That is, supervise sufficiently
for safety. All the while building the child's knowledge base about
what is and isn't safe.

If you know that your going to
loose part of your freedom becasue of your actions then it's likely
you may
act differently. Fear is peppered through out our society, through
every
society. Every action causes a reaction.

I don't abide by laws because of the penalty involved, nor for any
external reward for that matter. I abide by them because they are a
contract between me and others, all others. And unless they are a bad
law their intent was and is to make our lives in company bearable, and
even at times profitable.

Now to answer your question, yes I use corporal punishment with my
child.

I didn't ask you a question. I don't recall posting to you ever
before. If you are referring to something I said, either quote it so I
have the context of your comments, or attribute my post in yours. It's
easy. Your newsreader can do that.

I
have a 13 y/o daughter that can be the biggest hell raiser that walks
the
face of the earth.

Doesn't surprise me. Most spanked children have similar compensatory
behaviors. Some go wild, some retreat in to various sick fantasies
that create a facade of compliance over a seething mess that can
explode.

Does she fear me..............no. Atleast not untill she
steps over the line to far, then she knows she is going to get a good
sound
spanking for it.

Odd. I didn't spank nor punish my children and except for the usual
exploratory behaviors they were easy to raise. Lots of energy, and
some things that YOU might have spanked for but I wouldn't, like my
daughter at three deciding, as she went to see if the neighbor kids
could come out and play, that it was too hot and showing up naked at
the neighbor's door.

We just laughed.

Heres the rule kane that works for us, she wants more
responsiblity............she like going out with her friends,
skating,
boating etc. Like any teenager, she wants to experiment, test her
limits so
to speak.

Yep. And no, it's not "so to speak." It is an imperative of nature.
They MUST and WILL do it or become sick and disabled. Seriously.

So I gave her more responsiblity but along with it comes the
responsibility for her actions. I let her know she is responsible for
her
actions and that she has work to do around the house she is
responsible for.

Boy, are you dumb. My kids clammered for jobs around the house. I just
held out on them a bit. Kept telling them they weren't quite ready,
about three to six months before they were, and let them work into the
job tiny bits at a time.

By the time my daughter was 7 (when I knew she could safely handle it)
she would NOT let anyone else launder her clothes. Same for my son at
the same age. It's the old Tom Sawyer and the Whitewash Fence ploy.
Nothing to it...not rocket science.

She has a responsiblity on her conduct, attire and who she associates
with.
That depending on the severity of the misconduct will dictate her
punishment
whether it's grounding, no privilages and receiving a spanking. One
more
thing, we do not discipline without the other parent present, it's
for
protection of ourselves and to monitor the person administering the
discipline so it doesn't get out of hand.

What a cold and harsh life for a child. What a view of the world that
is just as cold and manipulative and force based.

Here is the amazing part kane, contrary to your beliefs, the ones you
like
to throw all over this group, is our daughter will actually get upset
if she
doesn't receive a proper punishment.

Yep, I've seen it many times. Many children will, most as a matter of
fact, will adopt whatever method their parent decides to parent them
with. From birth on up they believe the parenting they get is the
parenting they deserve....no matter how kindly or how harsh.

If she feels she has gone to far then
she expects a spanking.

It's called "attention getting." My children used another way to get
attention. It usually consisted of asking for a hug, or a story, or
can we go crawfishin' today dad, or daddy will you go shopping with me
an help me pick my jr high clothes.

She has told me on more than one occassion that it
makes her feel that we care and love her.

Let me tell you what is much more likely happening.

Any intense experience by a human produces a response....it's referred
to in behavioral circles as an "abreaction."

Main Entry: ab=B7re=B7ac=B7tion
Pronunciation: "ab-rE-'ak-sh&n
Function: noun
the expression and emotional discharge of unconscious material (as a
repressed idea or emotion) by verbalization especially in the presence
of a therapist =97compare CATHARSIS 2 =97ab=B7re=B7act /-'akt/ verb

It is basically a kind of catharsis. It was used by the N. Koreans and
Chinese running POW camps for American and UN prisoners in their
brainwashing techniques.

This was the first war we were in that there was a serious problem
with turncoats. Our boys were treated to intense experiences to break
them down, and many came to regard their captors as right and to be
admired.

That her friends parents, who
don't spank them, says that they run wild, dress like they want and
act like
they don't care about anyone but themselves.

Well, I'm stunned, absolutely stunned, that you would know kids from
that 10% of the population of kids that aren't spanked at all.

I have every reason to believe those are all spanked children.

The truth is nearly all parents spank, then the kids hit their teens
and the teen pretty much is a product of their prior experience of
being parented.

She is a real trouper about it, if after being warned many times that h=
er
action will warrant a spanking, when it's time to receive it, she
doesn't
complain, whine, barter or try to get out of it.

Why do you warn many times?

She take her punishment, as
painful as it maybe, with the knowledge that she went to far and is
being
held accountable for her actions.

She has you dancing. The sudden pain feels good to her, cathartic. In
fact it may well have some sexual overtones to it if you are hitting
her buttocks. She may well end up, when she is sexually active,
seeking spanking as an erotic tool. You might want to read up on this.

We make it a point to let her know that
while her punishment is a spanking now, that as she becomes an adult,
she
will still be held accountable for her actions, just with a different
form
of punishment.

She may well push her boyfriends or spouse to spank her. And frankly
you are lying to her. There are very few instances where adults are
punished for their mistakes. Adults get away with all kinds of
misbehavior kids cannot....why do you think kids can hardly wait to
grow up?

Let's see now: getting drunk, having wild sex for recreation, quiting
a job, running away from home...and more...adults get to do such
things with little or no consquence. So you are teaching your child
the world is one way, when it fact it is another.

That is precisely the reason that when I taught my own children I put
the emphasis on them being their own judge, and pretty harsh they were
too. High standards..higher than I would have held them to.

I always asked them how a behavior they were doing made them feel
inside, about themselves. Many a little tear was shed when I asked
that because above all I had my children's trust...and the very
thought of doing something that might seem less than honest or good
bothered them....and bothered them when I wasn't present, something
doubt you child has, or if she does, will lose very quickly under peer
pressure.

I feel for you, and for her. She won't be prepared if all she has to
remember is that there was pain and force. Once free of the pain and
force she'll go her own way and maybe even overcompensate. The 60's
were like that.

I recall because I did street recovery work with druggies. Kids, like
yours.

Hell kane, even the most primate of the animal kingdom physically
disciplines there off spring.

You'd be surprised how rarely that really is. And animals do not have
the same experience when their parent gives them pain. They will not
reach the age of reason and fight back, they just leave, or......

Among those few animals that continue to reside in packs some are very
savage to each other as adults.

If you feel that model is appropriate for humans then I do hope we run
you spanking compulsives off the planet a little quicker. You are
dangerous folks.

And that is very easy to see...just look around the world at the
results of brute force parenting.

So you tell me, as humans, bound by this
society we created, have we gone to far?

No, the awareness of the effects of brutal parenting are becoming more
known all the time to more people. In time the hitting of children,
even punishing them, will be an archaic relic that school children
will review in hologram projections and marvel at.....marvel that
humans were once so ignorant and unintelligent.

Just as we look at primates.

Is a tool being tossed out that
could be useful if used properly?

Define "properly."

Instead of getting rid of it, should we
retrain our society to use it properly, with respect to ourselves and
our
children?

I can recall NO time in any child's life that I've known, or any
adult, for that matter, where someone hitting them was experienced as
respectful.

It is respectful to make your needs and wants known clearly. It is
respectful to say why when asked. It is respectful to laugh when a
child errs in funny ways, and to hug them and teach them better ways.

You know kane there is a difference between hitting and spankings.

Ah the biggie. I've had people pull that out of the hat so many times
I can predict it the instant I meet them in the forum of spanking.

If I walk up to you and punch you in the face, that's hitting.

Sure.

If I tell you
that your going to get spanked for misconduct, then you conduct
yourself
inappropriately and then get spanked for it, that's just what it says
it
is........................a spanking.

Nice try. All you have to do is look at the two actions in the real
world. Each requires that you use your hand, lift it and swing it, and
either you "spanked" my face, or hit that kid bottom.

They are no different other than the open hand. So tell me if you
slapped me in the face would that be a spanking?

And if you hit my with your open hand, a slap, to my buttocks or the
back of my legs would that be a spanking?

I'll have your ass in jail so quick it will make your head spin, and a
jail hospital at that, because the instant you even threaten to hit me
and call it something else I'll flatten your ass so quick you'll think
your name is pancake.

I've done it before. A number of times.

Basically you are lying to yourself so you will not have to both deny
your parents their treatment of you, and admit to yourself you are
assualting your child.

You are assaulting your child, but get by with it because you live in
a society still sick with it's origins. We are something of a mess.
Most of us ran from Europe, or came as indentured, or as slaves, and
those here before us were routinely destroyed and or enslaved.

This is a nation founded on savagry...no question about it, and trying
to work its way toward civilization. I'm rather proud of the progress
we've made, because in fact we are far ahead of most others.

This is just one of the last holdouts against civilizing ourselves.
Hitting our children and thinking it teaches them anything useful
about how to organize and live in a society.

N1BB

Thanks for the information. And do try to stop hitting your daughter,
and calling it something else. And remember, you are sexually exciting
her, very likely.

Kane