night weaning not going so well

determined wrote:

Here's the funny thing - the bottles only have about an ounce in them now...
And that's all it takes for her to go back to sleep. But try to NOT give
her a bottle at all, and she'll scream and cry for 15+ minutes. And I don't
have the stamina at night to let her CIO.

In that case, it isn't hunger. It's just that drinking milk is the way
she's used to getting to sleep.

And I know this is tough, but, if that is the case, there just isn't a
way to change things without her being at least temporarily upset. She
isn't going to decide of her own accord that letting Mommy sleep would
be the nice thing to do. So, the choices you've got are to live with
providing her with milk several times a night, or to put your foot down
and insist on her going to sleep with less input. The latter wouldn't
have to mean you leave her alone to cry if you don't want to - it's
perfectly reasonable to try some intermediate stage of comforting such
as a cuddle and a drink of water or a pacifier, and then take it from
there - but it would mean at least one or two lengthy sessions of crying
(maybe more, but at least one) before she realises that, no, she is not
going to get milk in the middle of the night any more and needs to get
back to sleep without it.

The question is whether this is something you're prepared to do for a
few nights (and it shouldn't be more than that) with a view to getting
more sleep in the long term. Obviously, nobody can decide for you
whether or not that's worth it, but there isn't really any way round it
- those are the options. The one piece of advice I would give you is
not to try refusing the milk unless you're really prepared to make a
firm commitment to not giving it for however long it takes for her to
learn to go back to sleep by other means. The worst thing to do in this
situation is to start out trying to persuade her to go to sleep without
the milk and cave in and offer it after she's been screaming for ages -
that teaches her persistence, and makes it that much harder for you if
and when you decide to try the method again.

How does she go to sleep at bedtime and naptime - does she nurse to
sleep, or does she nurse until drowsy and then fall asleep in her crib?
If she can get to sleep in some situations without needing to be
sucking on a bottle of milk, then it's easier for her to learn how to do
so in other situations. So, if she can't do this at naptimes and
bedtime, I'd start out by getting her to learn how to do so on those
occasions, when you've got at least a bit more energy for the struggle
than you have in the middle of the night.


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

Anne Rogers wrote:
That said, if she's used to having that much milk during the night then I
think she'd find it a bit difficult to be stopped cold turkey. I think
Anne's idea of diluting the milk down is the best one, although I think it
would be perfectly reasonable to go faster than the rate Anne recommended.

I suggested slowly because she'd been refusing completely water, so I was
thinking this baby is going to reject it if she notices a change, hence
suggesting such tiny changes, I guess try faster first, but if it doesn't
work, don't give up, just change more gradually, so that from day to day
there is no perceptible difference, but over a month you've made the
transition.

That depends on whether trying to avoid any upset for the baby is a
greater or lesser priority than changing a situation that is exhausting
for the OP and, incidentally, not that good for the child's teeth.
Which is ultimately the OP's decision, and I will not speak out against
that if she makes it differently, but, well... it's probably pretty
obvious from my posts which I see as more important.

I don't see it as part of my job as a parent to avoid any situation that
might make my child cry; I see it as my job to set reasonable limits and
be firm about them. Refusing to provide a child of this age with milk
mixed to the precise concentration of her liking at any hour of the
night strikes me as a reasonable limit.


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

"determined" wrote in message
...

Here's the funny thing - the bottles only have about an ounce in them
now... And that's all it takes for her to go back to sleep. But try to
NOT give her a bottle at all, and she'll scream and cry for 15+ minutes.
And I don't have the stamina at night to let her CIO.

Oh. Well at least you don't have to worry about her crying from hunger

I think you either just keep up with what you are doing until she decides
she is ready to change (which could be awhile) or make a plan to gradually
eliminate them and deal with the crying.

The thing is that she wouldn't be crying for fear, or hunger, or lack of
comfort. She'd be crying because she'd be mad and a little confused about
the new rules as well as tired and crabby in the middle of the night.

My Brock cried at the top of his lungs for about 15-20 minutes and then just
stopped, laid down and went to sleep. You could hope for that outcome. It
was harder for Ben. He cried less forcefully but for longer. I'll be
honest - it wasn't over in 3-4 days either. The length of their crying got
much shorter but we didn't have a completely quiet night for nearly two
weeks.

Ponder what is best for your family. I did not do sleep training with my
first two and four years later I still had not slept for 4 straight hours.
Chronic sleep deprivation certainly didn't do me any favors but it was only
in hindsight (and with some healthy sleep) that I could see how it
negatively affected my parenting, mood, patience, joy, marriage, judgment,
etc. I wasn't interested in a repeat. However...if I had only lived
through it with one child and didn't have another poor sleeper two years
later then I may have a different opinion.

Best of luck with what ever you decide!
--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06

"determined" wrote in message
That's pretty much it. My first daughter didn't walk until 16 months, so
I presume with Emily's level of mobility she'll get there in her own
time...

LOL, well that changes a lot. You probably should have mentioned that in
your first post. I wouldn't be worried either then at this point.

Sue

"Chookie" wrote in message
Experiences and anecdotes don't replace sound data. They complement it.

(eye roll)

No, duh, really. I'm smart enough to know that. However, studies don't
always have the data to account for every little detail and are often
skewed. I learned that a long time ago.

Sue

"Sarah Vaughan" wrote in message
I don't see it as part of my job as a parent to avoid any situation that
might make my child cry; I see it as my job to set reasonable limits and
be firm about them. Refusing to provide a child of this age with milk
mixed to the precise concentration of her liking at any hour of the night
strikes me as a reasonable limit.

Ah a voice of reason. IMO, that's why many parents are having troubles in
the sleeping department because no crying can be tolerated and heaven forbid
should the child be uncomfortable.

Sue

In article ,
"Sue" wrote:

"Chookie" wrote in message
Experiences and anecdotes don't replace sound data. They complement it.

(eye roll)

No, duh, really. I'm smart enough to know that. However, studies don't
always have the data to account for every little detail and are often
skewed. I learned that a long time ago.

None of which has anything to do with Anne's post about hypermobile joints.
Or did you have particular studies in mind?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

On Mar 15, 8:49 am, "determined" wrote:
Emily is 15 months now. Still not walking, but standing without holding
onto anything for a few seconds at a time, crawls up the stairs, crawls off
the couch, pushes around her walker, all unassisted. But my doc is still
insisting we bring her to pediatric physical therapy since she isn't
walking. I flatly refused again yesterday when they called to schedule an
appt, but it is so irritating...


Good for you. Not walking at 15 months is not a darned thing to worry
about, especially if she is free standing. I'm betting since this post
is 3 weeks old, that she is probably walking now or about to. My older
kiddo is a freakin' genius and wasn't walking until 16 months. Nothing
wrong, she just didn't see the point until then. Shiny, OTOH, *needs*
physical therapy... but we knew it from the time she was 4 months old,
and it started when she was 6 months old, and at two she still isn't
walking but is doing all the things you describe your 15 month old
doing, and I'm *still* relaxed about the actual "date of first
walking" as I know that it will come, it will just take time. Your kid
wouldn't even be on my radar at 15 months. If you get to 18 months,
THAT is the time to *think* about seeing a PT.


She is still relatively small, at around 20 lbs, but she eats well, and is
not a picky eater. The problem is, she still cries 3-4 times per night. We
have tried to let her cry it out, but most of the time, she just becomes
more insistant. The only thing that calms her down, and it works like
magic, is a bottle. I don't want to do this anymore! We have tried putting
water in the bottle, and she just won't go for it. So we have tried cutting
the milk with water, about half and half, but it doesn't make her wake any
less. We feed her well through the day, she takes a tippy cup all day, but
won't accept it at night.

What tactics can we try now?

Let her eat at night. Since she's small, you might even try making
that last food before bed be protein/fat-rich snack like cheese, and
don't cut her milk with water. Children stay better in touch with
their actual caloric needs and tend to develop healthier long term
attitudes toward sleep if they are simply alllowed to eat when they
are hungry and sleep when they are tired. Quit fighting it, and look
for ways of making the process less taxing on you, whether that's
storing milk next to the bed in a chiller/warmer, or making sure her
bed is within arms reach, whatever it takes. I nurse my kids at night
at that age, and it's just part of what we do. With a smaller kid, the
last thing you should be doing is telling them, "your hunger signals
don't matter".

Yes, being woken up sucks. I know this to my bones. But I also know
they're only little for a short time, and it does pass.

My 2-year-old has a sippy cup with her in bed with water in it all the
time. Sometimes she wakes up and wants to nurse. Sometimes she wakes
up and grabs her cup. But I let her hunger and thirst be the guide,
which is a far cry from the bad old days when I had to wake her up
because if she slept through, she lost weight.

If you are severely sleep deprived, I would start out (and I know this
is hard) with giving her full fat, unwatered milk, breastmilk or
formula totally on demand at night for a little while. If she's
consistent about when she wakes up, you can even try waking up 5
minutes before she normally wants it, pop it in her mouth, let her
drink it without having to wake up all the way... keep that up for a
while, and then start moving back when you give that feed.... the
point is to get her out of the habit of waking up crying, and start
gradually stretching that time-to-next-feed.

Jenrose

my pedi gave us the ok to wean the nighttime feedings. i'm sure it's
because he's gaining plenty of weight. if your baby isn't gaining
like she should be then i would say, sure continue to feed her.
as for the nighttime wakings... there is a book called "sleeping
through the night" that i have found to be very helpful. it's
important to have a schedule so the baby knows what to expect and when
to expect it (although you do still need to be flexible, of course).
that book has a lot of tips about training your child to sleep through
the night.
if she is only needed comfort (which is what it sounds like to me)
then the book has many tips about training your child to comfort
herself.

good luck.

wrote:

Let her eat at night. Since she's small, you might even try making
that last food before bed be protein/fat-rich snack like cheese, and
don't cut her milk with water. Children stay better in touch with
their actual caloric needs and tend to develop healthier long term
attitudes toward sleep if they are simply alllowed to eat when they
are hungry and sleep when they are tired. Quit fighting it, and look
for ways of making the process less taxing on you, whether that's
storing milk next to the bed in a chiller/warmer, or making sure her
bed is within arms reach, whatever it takes. I nurse my kids at night
at that age, and it's just part of what we do. With a smaller kid, the
last thing you should be doing is telling them, "your hunger signals
don't matter".

Wanting milk isn't necessarily due to a hunger signal. Babies can be
creatures of habit as much as people of any other age, and sometimes
it's simply a matter of being used to drinking milk before you go to
sleep and wanting to drink more milk before going back to sleep. Which
seems to have been the case here - another post in this thread specified
that the baby was only taking an ounce at a time, which, given that she
was eating well during the day and otherwise a healthy toddler, suggests
that hunger wasn't actually the problem.


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell