A Parenting & kids forum. ParentingBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ParentingBanter.com forum » misc.kids » General (moderated)
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Does "no presents" really mean that?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old July 5th 03, 05:09 AM
Rosalie B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does "no presents" really mean that?

x-no-archive:yes "Cathy Kearns" wrote:

Miss Manners would point out that presents should never be expected,
and telling guests that normally they are expected, but not this time
by writing "no presents" on an invitation, no matter how well
intentioned, is rude. I would also presume that making disparaging
remarks about guests who could not contain their joy about their
dear friends' occasion without bringing them a token would also
be considered rude.

However, it you really want to get out of getting presents, I've found
throwing a "summer pool party" or having a few friends over for a
sleep over, without mentioning the words "birthday", "graduation",
"anniversary", or "wedding" often will do the trick.


I have been thinking about this and my initial thought was that the
party giver should suggest that the gifts be brought unwrapped and
given to the local hospital. But that still gets into the expectation
that there will be presents brought.

Then I thought - well maybe the gifts could be labeled as to age or
sex of the child they were for and there could be a gift exchange
instead of the birthday child getting all of them. Kind of like a
gift exchange that is done in some offices. I suspect there might be
problems in the execution of this idea, as I haven't worked out the
details.

I agree with Banty that manners are not so common now (I think it is
incredibly rude to bring wedding gifts TO a wedding as it results in
all kinds of chaos no matter how well it is handled).

So just as one must put reply cards in wedding invitations because
otherwise (and even so) people will not tell you if they are coming or
not, one must also specify about presents on an invitation. And that
is absolutely against etiquette to do.

So in the first instance, instead of 'no gifts', one would say
something to the effect of 'Birthday child will not be receiving
gifts. Any gifts will be donated to the oncology ward of Children's
Hospital' or something of that sort. It certainly is rude, but if you
are going to be rude you might as well be definite.

Party-excursions and combo parties are also a good idea. My dd#2 gave
a combo party for her dh's graduation from law school and her ds's
bday. It was a pool party and BBQ, and the kids had pizza and cake,
and I don't think a lot of them knew that it was a bday party,
especially as it wasn't really on his birthday, but was on the nearest
Saturday.




"just me" wrote in message
om...

"D&K Condron" wrote in message
...
I recently went to a child's birthday party that requested no presents,

but
a dish of something yummy to share instead.

Well, out of 8 moms invited, I was the *only* one who did not bring a

gift.
Did I miss something? I admit that I am new at the mommy thing, but to

be
the only one who did as instructed? I am very confused.

What do the rest of you think "no presents" means? What would you have
done?



It means no presents, but some people just can't believe that people mean
that. We just attended a big big 50th wedding anniversary party. The
honorees had specified "no presents". I overheard one complain to the

other
as someone left a gift on a table for them that now they knew which of

their
friends couldn't read. They really meant it. Any other event I've been

to
where the invitation had specified "no presents" also meant it. Maybe

Miss
Manners has a suggestion on how to gift someone even if they said that on

an
invitation, but I haven't read that particular column.

-Aula


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/03


grandma Rosalie

  #12  
Old July 5th 03, 05:11 AM
dragonlady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does "no presents" really mean that?

In article ,
David desJardins wrote:

Banty writes:
Officially, one does not have any obigation whatsoever to bring a
present to a birthday party, and the party giver should have no
expectation whatsoever that any present arrive with the guests. If
any presents should arrive, therefore the party giver is surprised and
honored and tickled that someone would go through such an effort, and
to discourage that kind of good effort and intention in any way would
be rude and work against what is good in people in general.


I disagree with this whole analysis. If someone really doesn't want
presents for their children (e.g., maybe they think that having presents
at a party is too materialistic, or they don't want the child to have
particular kinds of toys, or they just have that personal preference,
for whatever reason), then it's not "good" of people to disregard the
host's wishes.

There seems to be an implicit assumption in some of the replies here
that the only reason that someone might request no presents is to "free"
the guests from the "obligation" to bring a present. [And I think this
is the reason people, unfortunately, disregard such requests: they think
only that they are not obligated to bring a present---but they choose to
do so anyway---rather than being actively discouraged from doing so.]
But I think that's not at all accurate. A host might request "No
presents" because the host really doesn't want any presents, and such a
host is unlikely to be "tickled" by having their desires ignored.

It seems a bit weird to me if the only way to avoid getting unwanted
presents is to not have a party at all.

David desJardins


I think you misunderstand some of the responses; we are stating what
etiquette experts consider to be proper; whether you think traditional
etiquette is reasonable or not is irrelevant to identifying what it IS.

According to Miss Manners (also Emily Post and other such experts) an
invitation is NOT a demand for a gift, one is NOT under an obligation to
bring gifts, and putting "no presents" on an invitation implies that
there normally IS an obligation and is therefore improper.

As I see it, the bigger problem is that people now treat invitations and
announcements as gift demands -- both those sending and those receiving
them -- making it hard to throw a party just because you want to have a
party for someone. I wish there was an easy solution.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

  #13  
Old July 5th 03, 05:11 AM
==Daye==
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does "no presents" really mean that?

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 17:04:48 EDT, David desJardins
wrote:

It seems a bit weird to me if the only way to avoid getting unwanted
presents is to not have a party at all.


That may very well be, but what is wrong with wanting to
celebrate a child's birthday with their friends???

As an adult, I enjoy celebrating my birthday with friends.
However, I don't need them buying me presents. I don't have the
celebration to get presents. I have the celebration to celebrate
the day of my birth with friends.

--
==Daye==
E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au

  #15  
Old July 5th 03, 05:13 AM
Cathy Kearns
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does "no presents" really mean that?

Oh, you can have a party, just not one billed as a "birthday party",
at least before the event. You can have balloons, and cake. But
sending out invitations that say mention birthdays tends to bring
out the gift giver in people. If you surprise them with the reason
(think surprise engagement parties) then they get to celebrate the
reason, but it's too late to get a present.

"David desJardins" wrote in message
...
Banty writes:
Officially, one does not have any obigation whatsoever to bring a
present to a birthday party, and the party giver should have no
expectation whatsoever that any present arrive with the guests. If
any presents should arrive, therefore the party giver is surprised and
honored and tickled that someone would go through such an effort, and
to discourage that kind of good effort and intention in any way would
be rude and work against what is good in people in general.


I disagree with this whole analysis. If someone really doesn't want
presents for their children (e.g., maybe they think that having presents
at a party is too materialistic, or they don't want the child to have
particular kinds of toys, or they just have that personal preference,
for whatever reason), then it's not "good" of people to disregard the
host's wishes.

There seems to be an implicit assumption in some of the replies here
that the only reason that someone might request no presents is to "free"
the guests from the "obligation" to bring a present. [And I think this
is the reason people, unfortunately, disregard such requests: they think
only that they are not obligated to bring a present---but they choose to
do so anyway---rather than being actively discouraged from doing so.]
But I think that's not at all accurate. A host might request "No
presents" because the host really doesn't want any presents, and such a
host is unlikely to be "tickled" by having their desires ignored.

It seems a bit weird to me if the only way to avoid getting unwanted
presents is to not have a party at all.

David desJardins


  #16  
Old July 5th 03, 05:14 AM
Nevermind
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does "no presents" really mean that?

(Hillary Israeli) wrote in message ...
In ,
just me wrote:

*where the invitation had specified "no presents" also meant it. Maybe Miss
*Manners has a suggestion on how to gift someone even if they said that on an
*invitation, but I haven't read that particular column.
*

No, Miss Manners says it is not up to a host to dictate whether a guest
should or should not bring presents.


And she's entitled to her opinion.

However, the fact is that guests to parties for which the acknowledged
purpose is an anniversary or birthday do indeed feel that a present is
required, and therefore it is my opinion that if a part-giver
specifically does not want to burden others with the need to buy
presents, he/she can and should state "no presents" on the invitation.

I have been tempted to do that myself with my kids' parties, and my
reason is that I hate the thought of some family spending money they
might not have that week. My kid is being thrilled by the party
itself, and the guests are giving him the gift of their presence --
truly. And these other parents don't owe my kid a present because in
most cases they barely know my kid.

There was a time in my life when I just groaned at being invited to
one of my niece's or nephew's birthday parties because I was always
the only broke one in the family. (I had no kids of my own then and
was naive about the party thing, as Miss Manners seems to be.) My
other siblings (we have a big family) would show up with
knock-the-kid's-socks-off gifts and I'd try to get creative. LOSER! I
finally learned to just charge the stuff.

I am now sensitive to the fact that my kids' friends really don't owe
my kid a gift just because my kid named him or her to be invited to a
party. However, as presents are, despite Miss Manners, de rigeur, I
have never had the courage to say "no presents." (1) Some of the
parents would think we were utter weirdos who might not be safe to
send their kids to visit; (2) Some parents wouldn't believe me, and
they'd bring presents, making the other parents/kids feel bad; (3) My
kids know, even at their young ages -- as Miss manners should know at
her age -- that presents are de rigeur, and so they'd feel seriously
cheated if there were no presents.

It is up to the guest as to whether
or not the guest chooses to bring a present.


In theory; very much NOT in practice.

It is considered rude to put
"no presents" on the invitation, because it implies that had that
specification NOT been on the invitation, the guest would in fact have
been obligated to bring a gift; also it is considered rude because if a
guest feels like bringing a gift, the host should not take that joyful
expression of kindness away from the guest.


But if one person's joyful expression makes another person feel like a
****, I think the former person can be asked to get joyful some other
way -- or drop a present off separately/later. Just my opinion.

  #17  
Old July 5th 03, 01:14 PM
David desJardins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does "no presents" really mean that?

dragonlady writes:
According to Miss Manners (also Emily Post and other such experts) an
invitation is NOT a demand for a gift, one is NOT under an obligation to
bring gifts, and putting "no presents" on an invitation implies that
there normally IS an obligation and is therefore improper.


If that's what Miss Manners and Emily Post think, they are wrong.
Putting "No Presents" just implies that you don't want any presents. It
doesn't imply that there would have been an obligation to bring presents
if that statement were omitted. That's the fundamental mistake.

I do see this idea expressed here and elsewhere (that people say "No
Presents" to relieve the guests of some obligation---e.g., I see a
posting from "Nevermind" that says exactly this). But it's wrong to
reach a conclusion about "No Presents" based on the assumption that
that's the only reason people might say this. It's not.

David desJardins

  #18  
Old July 5th 03, 01:15 PM
chiam margalit
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does "no presents" really mean that?

"D&K Condron" wrote in message ...
I recently went to a child's birthday party that requested no presents, but
a dish of something yummy to share instead.

Well, out of 8 moms invited, I was the *only* one who did not bring a gift.
Did I miss something? I admit that I am new at the mommy thing, but to be
the only one who did as instructed? I am very confused.

What do the rest of you think "no presents" means? What would you have
done?


Within our circle of friends, no presents is very common, and most
parents respect that. However, in liu of presents, *many* children ask
for a donation to a particular charity. For one child I know, he
requested that donations be sent to a campership fund for special
needs kids in our local JCC camp, because as a special needs kid, he
wanted other kids to have the great experience he's had.

Another girl we know asked for book donations, which she then brought
to an inner city school that was trying to build up their library.

When you do something like this, parents feel that they're fulfilling
the presents duty, and the family who has requested no presents gets
something much more valuable in return.

Marjorie

  #19  
Old July 5th 03, 02:22 PM
Penny Gaines
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does "no presents" really mean that?

==Daye== wrote in :

Before I had my daughter, I decided to stop celebrating Xmas. (I
celebrate now because of my daughter... she makes it enjoyable.)
I asked for no presents. I told everyone that I would not be
buying gifts, so don't buy me anything. My DH did buy gifts, but
he was still celebrating. I STILL got presents. I didn't buy
anyone anything, but I was heaped with presents. When I asked
them about it, they said, "We thought you weren't serious." I
responded, "I was serious."


I had a similar problem one year: I was working very hard on
decluttering, and so when my mother asked what I wanted, I told
her a particular type of chocolates. She got me that *and* another
present.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

  #20  
Old July 5th 03, 02:22 PM
Penny Gaines
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Does "no presents" really mean that?

Rosalie B. wrote in :
[snip]
I agree with Banty that manners are not so common now (I think it is
incredibly rude to bring wedding gifts TO a wedding as it results in
all kinds of chaos no matter how well it is handled).

So just as one must put reply cards in wedding invitations because
otherwise (and even so) people will not tell you if they are coming or
not, one must also specify about presents on an invitation. And that
is absolutely against etiquette to do.

[snip]

I don't think it is that there are *no* manners, just that they
are *different* manners.

So just like UK wedding invites don't have lots of different envelopes
(the invitees names are on the invitation itself), most UK weddings
have arrangements for receiving presents. Postage in the UK is
sufficiently expensive that if you don't live near the bride and groom
it would be too expensive to mail it.

When you read older books, the manners then are quite different to now.
At times manners have been very formal, with strict details on such
things as when and how long to visit people (afternoons only, leave
after 15 minutes), other times they are informal and apparently
left to the individual to decide.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AD/HD World Expert Presents Online Thurs May 27 TerryM2442 General 0 May 26th 04 05:33 AM
They opened their Chanukkah presents today...sigh dejablues General 128 December 28th 03 07:25 PM
America's Favorite Grandma Presents: Christmastime Do's and DON'Ts!! Mother Henrietta Hickey General 6 December 17th 03 09:08 AM
Holiday presents for the neighbors kids? P. Tierney General 10 December 8th 03 09:09 PM
First Christmas Presents Marie General 12 November 18th 03 08:44 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 ParentingBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.