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Q: allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 11th 06, 04:56 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
FlowerGirl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Q: allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk

I'm looking for anyone with real information on this (as in personal
experience, journal references etc)

Firstly, there is a gastroenterologist, a paed. and a LC with particular
experience in food allergy all giving different advice. I've done what
synopsis I can, but I probably have not got this 100% right ..

A friend of mine has a 7.5 mo DD who has had an ulcerated colon since either
a) 3 weeks pp when my friend had 3 lots of different ABs due to what was
thought to be an infected c-section wound (which turned out to be an
irritation to a stitch) ... and this is what the gastroenterologist thinks
happened ,.... or b) from birth - her family have a history of gut problems
with the older DD and the grandmother both having some degree of irritable
gut throughout life (but these "problems" have never been checked to see if
they're allergies etc ... the grandmother has only been checked for colon
cancer).

At any rate, the baby has been exclusively bf thus far, and my friend has
kept a food diary and removed pretty much everything from her diet that
could possibly cause a problem irritating the gut lining the foods she is
eating a lamb, chicken, rockmelon, watermelon, occasional apple, sugar,
salt, pumpkin, zucchini ... and I think that's about it. No dairy. No
grains at all (even rice was causing an issue).

So at 7.5 mo, the gastroenterologist has suggested that neocate formula may
be the way forward as it seems that the elimination diet has not really
helped the problem and there aren't a whole lot extra foods my friend can
cut out.

I've been backing bf, and my friend has talked to the LC plus consultants
from the ABA, but is at a point where she just doesn't know what to do. She
wants to bf, but the gastroenterologist suspects that this is part the
problem (don't ask me why I'm just repeating what she told my friend).

At this point in time, I think she wants to at least try to see if the
neocate will make a difference and is planning to do trial of this whilst
using a pump to maintain her supply so she can switch back if there's no
improvement.
Personally I'm always going to be pro-bf, but I also think you gotta know
when a situation is so medically different from the norm that other
solutions may need consideration.

That's why I'm asking here in case anybody else has some specific insights
into what might be a way forward.

Amanda



  #2  
Old July 11th 06, 10:45 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
FlowerGirl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Q: allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk


"Gorgon Park" wrote in message
ups.com...
FlowerGirl wrote:
I'm looking for anyone with real information on this (as in personal
experience, journal references etc)

Firstly, there is a gastroenterologist, a paed. and a LC with particular
experience in food allergy all giving different advice. I've done what
synopsis I can, but I probably have not got this 100% right ..

A friend of mine has a 7.5 mo DD who has had an ulcerated colon since

either
a) 3 weeks pp when my friend had 3 lots of different ABs due to what was
thought to be an infected c-section wound (which turned out to be an
irritation to a stitch) ... and this is what the gastroenterologist

thinks
happened ,.... or b) from birth - her family have a history of gut

problems
with the older DD and the grandmother both having some degree of

irritable
gut throughout life (but these "problems" have never been checked to see

if
they're allergies etc ... the grandmother has only been checked for

colon
cancer).

At any rate, the baby has been exclusively bf thus far, and my friend

has
kept a food diary and removed pretty much everything from her diet that
could possibly cause a problem irritating the gut lining the foods she

is
eating a lamb, chicken, rockmelon, watermelon, occasional apple,

sugar,
salt, pumpkin, zucchini ... and I think that's about it. No dairy. No
grains at all (even rice was causing an issue).

snip

I had a similar problem with my daughter (if by irritating the gut you
mean bloody stools), and the last thing that I eliminated that did the
trick is iodized table salt. It turns out that my daughter is allergic
to corn and all corn by-products. Iodized table salt contains corn
by-products and the sugar she is eating may also contain cornstarch as
a processing by-product (which does not have to be listed on an
ingredient label).

I choose to do an elimination diet rather than formula, which my
daughter's gastro was also pushing (at around the same age). She
cleared up within a week of my stopping iodized salt and switching to
sea salt.

I used the Sears elimination diet (from the askdrsears website
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/t041200.asp), so the foods I was
"allowed" to eat were slightly different: lamb, turkey, rice, millet,
all kinds of squash, potatoes and sweet potatoes.

So, as far as hard scientific evidence, I have none. But, what I did
is read the baby. My daughter was still healthy and still gaining
weight without a problem, even with the irritated gut and bloody
stools. If she had been sickly, I may have choosen differently. As it
was not seeming to affect her health, I choose what, to me, was the
least radical of the two options - doing the elimination diet for
myself rather than formula for her. I did it for about 6 weeks before
figuring out the whole corn thing. My daughter is now nearly 3, still
breastfeeding and has not had any further instestinal symptoms.

Hope this gives some help, or at least some hope.
Stacey


Thanks so much ... your story rings true - this baby is such a fat little
contented thing that its hard to believe she ever cries leave alone screams
in pain from wind.
... and I don't know about bloody stools, but I know they did do a stool
test and there was plenty of pus.
I shall pass the info on about the salt and sugar.
Ta
Amanda




  #3  
Old July 11th 06, 12:54 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
Anne Rogers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,497
Default allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk

I have to say that I'd also be skeptical about going away from breastmilk
just to see if it works. It would be much better if it were something
diagnosed, like if a baby had been diagnosed with PKU. Are there any tests
that can be done to see if any of the foods the mum is eating could be
causing the problem?

The other side of things is to see that this poor baby is not well, she is
7.5mths old, so it's a whole different ball game to giving a newborn
formula, especially as the mum is planning to pump so should be able to go
back to breastfeeding.

So, no conclusions! I don't think I've ever heard of a baby suddenly to
better, even on hypoallergenic formula, but then I guess those people aren't
posting asking how to relactate!

Anne



  #4  
Old July 11th 06, 05:08 PM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
brandini73
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Q: allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk

***delurking***

This is my personal experience... My son began with GI reactions
(bloody, mucousy, green diarrhea) at 4 weeks. After dairy, then soy
elimination he was better, but not within normal parameters. I also did
the Dr. Sears elimination diet. Once again, better, but his stools were
still mucousy & watery. We (me, the ped & GI doctors) didn't know if it
was something in my diet he was still reacting to or if it was just
irritation & needing some help healing. The GI doctor wanted me to give
him Neocate short term for healing & the ped. wanted me to continue BF
& accept the situation as it was. My personal feeling was that formula
of any kind was not an option for us because my son was/is thriving &
we were not at "last resort" time yet. After lots of consideration,
research & trying things that didn't work for us (pancreatic enzymes,
probiotics, chiropractic...), I chose to try an alternative medicine -
slippery elm bark powder - when he was 4 months old. He improved
immediately. The change was so fast (normal poop within 3 days) that I
thought it must have been a coincidence & I took him off the slippery
elm. Within a week we were back to green, mucousy stool with flecks of
blood. I started him back on the slippery elm & he is doing great. His
skin is clear & he poops every 3 to 5 days & it is seedy & has
substance. He is now 5 months old & I have been able to add foods back
in to the point that I'm only eliminating milk, soy, peanuts, tree
nuts, fish, shellfish & eggs.

Through LLL & POFAK (at kidswithfoodallergies.org) I have learned that
many different things work for different moms & babies, so I don't want
to give the impression that I've found "the cure." But, I do think it's
worth consideration in this situation as it's a very safe alternative.

Brandy


FlowerGirl wrote:
I'm looking for anyone with real information on this (as in personal
experience, journal references etc)

Firstly, there is a gastroenterologist, a paed. and a LC with particular
experience in food allergy all giving different advice. I've done what
synopsis I can, but I probably have not got this 100% right ..

A friend of mine has a 7.5 mo DD who has had an ulcerated colon since either
a) 3 weeks pp when my friend had 3 lots of different ABs due to what was
thought to be an infected c-section wound (which turned out to be an
irritation to a stitch) ... and this is what the gastroenterologist thinks
happened ,.... or b) from birth - her family have a history of gut problems
with the older DD and the grandmother both having some degree of irritable
gut throughout life (but these "problems" have never been checked to see if
they're allergies etc ... the grandmother has only been checked for colon
cancer).

At any rate, the baby has been exclusively bf thus far, and my friend has
kept a food diary and removed pretty much everything from her diet that
could possibly cause a problem irritating the gut lining the foods she is
eating a lamb, chicken, rockmelon, watermelon, occasional apple, sugar,
salt, pumpkin, zucchini ... and I think that's about it. No dairy. No
grains at all (even rice was causing an issue).

So at 7.5 mo, the gastroenterologist has suggested that neocate formula may
be the way forward as it seems that the elimination diet has not really
helped the problem and there aren't a whole lot extra foods my friend can
cut out.

I've been backing bf, and my friend has talked to the LC plus consultants
from the ABA, but is at a point where she just doesn't know what to do. She
wants to bf, but the gastroenterologist suspects that this is part the
problem (don't ask me why I'm just repeating what she told my friend).

At this point in time, I think she wants to at least try to see if the
neocate will make a difference and is planning to do trial of this whilst
using a pump to maintain her supply so she can switch back if there's no
improvement.
Personally I'm always going to be pro-bf, but I also think you gotta know
when a situation is so medically different from the norm that other
solutions may need consideration.

That's why I'm asking here in case anybody else has some specific insights
into what might be a way forward.

Amanda


  #5  
Old July 12th 06, 12:08 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
FlowerGirl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Q: allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk


"brandini73" wrote in message
ps.com...
***delurking***

This is my personal experience... My son began with GI reactions
(bloody, mucousy, green diarrhea) at 4 weeks. After dairy, then soy
elimination he was better, but not within normal parameters. I also did
the Dr. Sears elimination diet. Once again, better, but his stools were
still mucousy & watery. We (me, the ped & GI doctors) didn't know if it
was something in my diet he was still reacting to or if it was just
irritation & needing some help healing. The GI doctor wanted me to give
him Neocate short term for healing & the ped. wanted me to continue BF
& accept the situation as it was. My personal feeling was that formula
of any kind was not an option for us because my son was/is thriving &
we were not at "last resort" time yet. After lots of consideration,
research & trying things that didn't work for us (pancreatic enzymes,
probiotics, chiropractic...), I chose to try an alternative medicine -
slippery elm bark powder - when he was 4 months old. He improved
immediately. The change was so fast (normal poop within 3 days) that I
thought it must have been a coincidence & I took him off the slippery
elm. Within a week we were back to green, mucousy stool with flecks of
blood. I started him back on the slippery elm & he is doing great. His
skin is clear & he poops every 3 to 5 days & it is seedy & has
substance. He is now 5 months old & I have been able to add foods back
in to the point that I'm only eliminating milk, soy, peanuts, tree
nuts, fish, shellfish & eggs.

Through LLL & POFAK (at kidswithfoodallergies.org) I have learned that
many different things work for different moms & babies, so I don't want
to give the impression that I've found "the cure." But, I do think it's
worth consideration in this situation as it's a very safe alternative.

Brandy


I shall pass this info on to my friend thanks.
Amanda


  #6  
Old July 12th 06, 12:27 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
FlowerGirl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk


"Anne Rogers" wrote in message
...
I have to say that I'd also be skeptical about going away from breastmilk
just to see if it works. It would be much better if it were something
diagnosed, like if a baby had been diagnosed with PKU. Are there any tests
that can be done to see if any of the foods the mum is eating could be
causing the problem?


"Ulcerative Colitis" is the Dx. Unfortunately specific cause for this case
hasn't been found yet. The gastro's assumption is that the bub is still
reacting to something in the bm.
The foods the Mum is eating are from trial and error, food diary, advice
from the gastroenterologist and LC with allergy specialisation. I listed
them in the OP - there's not more than about 8 foods on the list.
I contacted her Re the salt and sugar aspects last night and as they are the
only non whole-foods left in the diet, however the salt is sea salt but
she's going to cut both salt and sugar for a week.
There also may be a genetic aspect for metabolism of carbohydrates so the
sugar may be a problem there.


The other side of things is to see that this poor baby is not well, she is
7.5mths old, so it's a whole different ball game to giving a newborn
formula, especially as the mum is planning to pump so should be able to go
back to breastfeeding.


The other aspect here is that the first daughter had similar symptoms that
went away after she was weaned at 13 months. This wasn't medically
investigated though although my friend did cut gluten and dairy from her
diet at the time.

My friend doesn't want to wean, hence the trial without losing too much
supply.


So, no conclusions! I don't think I've ever heard of a baby suddenly to
better, even on hypoallergenic formula, but then I guess those people

aren't
posting asking how to relactate!


The problem I guess is that the specific cause hasn't been identified in
this case.
Thanks
Amanda


  #7  
Old July 12th 06, 03:27 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
Gorgon Park
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk


FlowerGirl wrote:


"Ulcerative Colitis" is the Dx. Unfortunately specific cause for this case
hasn't been found yet. The gastro's assumption is that the bub is still
reacting to something in the bm.


Is the mom or baby on any types of medication? I always forgot to
check labels for medications when I was doing my elimination diet,
because I don't think of these things as "food". Also, vitamins,
calcium pills, etc have to be checked. This usually requires a phone
call to the manufacturer as they are not required to list non-medicinal
ingredients on these products.

The foods the Mum is eating are from trial and error, food diary, advice
from the gastroenterologist and LC with allergy specialisation. I listed
them in the OP - there's not more than about 8 foods on the list.
I contacted her Re the salt and sugar aspects last night and as they are the
only non whole-foods left in the diet, however the salt is sea salt but
she's going to cut both salt and sugar for a week.
There also may be a genetic aspect for metabolism of carbohydrates so the
sugar may be a problem there.

snip


The other aspect here is that the first daughter had similar symptoms that
went away after she was weaned at 13 months. This wasn't medically
investigated though although my friend did cut gluten and dairy from her
diet at the time.


According my daughter's gastro, some kids are just super sensitive and
no cause is ever found for the irritated gut, but they grow out of the
sensitivity around 1 year. That would be about the same time frame as
the older sibling in this case. Of course, he would only recommend
leaving the irritation "untreated" if the baby is otherwise healthy,
gaining weight, etc.

I guess it is just a matter of "reading the baby" and deciding what is
best in each case. Formula was pushed by my daughter's gastro after
she turned 6 months, and in hindsight, it is a good thing that we stuck
with the breastfeeding, as the formula he was suggesting (Nutramagen?)
had corn syrup solids as the first ingredient, and it turned out she
was allergic to corn.

I hope it all works out for them and, whatever she chooses, the baby is
and stays healthy.

Stacey

  #8  
Old July 12th 06, 04:41 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
arachne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Q: allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk

brandini73 wrote:

probiotics, chiropractic...), I chose to try an alternative medicine -
slippery elm bark powder - when he was 4 months old. He improved
immediately. The change was so fast (normal poop within 3 days) that I
thought it must have been a coincidence & I took him off the slippery
elm. Within a week we were back to green, mucousy stool with flecks of
blood. I started him back on the slippery elm & he is doing great. His
skin is clear & he poops every 3 to 5 days & it is seedy & has
substance. He is now 5 months old & I have been able to add foods back
in to the point that I'm only eliminating milk, soy, peanuts, tree
nuts, fish, shellfish & eggs.


can i ask how much slippery elm you gave? how did you give it? and is it
something he will eventually stop do you think?

DS1 is 4 next month & his allergies are only getting worse. the list of
what he is allergic to is so long now it's easier to list what he's not
allergic to - milk, most grains & a few veggies & a few fruit only. his
poo is also not normal.

anyway, naturopath we are seeing said until we heal his gut ("leaky gut
syndrome") the allergies will never get better. she is wanting all these
expensive multitude of things which we are not happy with & not going to
try yet. but a friend mentioned slippery elm & i remember me taking it
when i was younger to help my tummy issues & it worked well.

TIA.
--
elizabeth (in australia)
mum to DS1 "B" (almost 4 yrs) & DS2 "gorgey" (9.5 mths)


"In raising my children, I have lost my mind but found my soul."
--Lisa T. Shepherd
  #9  
Old July 12th 06, 04:56 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
arachne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Q: allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk

FlowerGirl wrote:
I'm looking for anyone with real information on this (as in personal
experience, journal references etc)

Firstly, there is a gastroenterologist, a paed. and a LC with particular
experience in food allergy all giving different advice. I've done what
synopsis I can, but I probably have not got this 100% right ..

A friend of mine has a 7.5 mo DD who has had an ulcerated colon since either
a) 3 weeks pp when my friend had 3 lots of different ABs due to what was
thought to be an infected c-section wound (which turned out to be an
irritation to a stitch) ... and this is what the gastroenterologist thinks
happened ,.... or b) from birth - her family have a history of gut problems
with the older DD and the grandmother both having some degree of irritable
gut throughout life (but these "problems" have never been checked to see if
they're allergies etc ... the grandmother has only been checked for colon
cancer).

At any rate, the baby has been exclusively bf thus far, and my friend has
kept a food diary and removed pretty much everything from her diet that
could possibly cause a problem irritating the gut lining the foods she is
eating a lamb, chicken, rockmelon, watermelon, occasional apple, sugar,
salt, pumpkin, zucchini ... and I think that's about it. No dairy. No
grains at all (even rice was causing an issue).

So at 7.5 mo, the gastroenterologist has suggested that neocate formula may
be the way forward as it seems that the elimination diet has not really
helped the problem and there aren't a whole lot extra foods my friend can
cut out.

I've been backing bf, and my friend has talked to the LC plus consultants
from the ABA, but is at a point where she just doesn't know what to do. She
wants to bf, but the gastroenterologist suspects that this is part the
problem (don't ask me why I'm just repeating what she told my friend).

At this point in time, I think she wants to at least try to see if the
neocate will make a difference and is planning to do trial of this whilst
using a pump to maintain her supply so she can switch back if there's no
improvement.
Personally I'm always going to be pro-bf, but I also think you gotta know
when a situation is so medically different from the norm that other
solutions may need consideration.

That's why I'm asking here in case anybody else has some specific insights
into what might be a way forward.

Amanda




the first thing that springs to mind is coeliac disease (sp?). has she
been tested for it?

some of those foods she is eating are quite high in natural chemicals
(salicylates, amines etc) so if we are talking intolerence, that could
be the problem. the book "friendly food" by rpa hospital allergy unit
has comprehensive info about a low chemical elimination diet.
you can read a bit he http://www.cs.nsw.gov.au/rpa/allergy/

from my allergist, the list of low natural chemical foods a babmoo
shoots, brussel sprouts, cabbage, celery, chives, choko, dried beans,
dried peas, green beans, leek, lentils, iceberg lettuce, mungbean
sprouts, white peeled potatp, red cabbage, shallot, swede, pear (ripe
peeled), pear (canned in sugar syrup), beef, chicken (no skin), eggs,
fish (fresh, white) lamb, rabbit, sausage casing & veal.

is she using oil to cook?

what is she drinking? just water?

is she sure forbidden foods are not sneaking in or is she having any
medication? even humble vitamins can have things she shouldn't be having.

even foods on her list can be allergenic. DS1 is allergic to both
pumpkin & rockmelon.

HTH.

--
elizabeth (in australia)
mum to DS1 "B" (almost 4 yrs) & DS2 "gorgey" (9.5 mths)


"In raising my children, I have lost my mind but found my soul."
--Lisa T. Shepherd
  #10  
Old July 12th 06, 06:12 AM posted to misc.kids.breastfeeding
FlowerGirl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default allergies, gut problems and Neocate Vs breastmilk


"Gorgon Park" wrote in message
oups.com...

FlowerGirl wrote:


"Ulcerative Colitis" is the Dx. Unfortunately specific cause for this

case
hasn't been found yet. The gastro's assumption is that the bub is still
reacting to something in the bm.


Is the mom or baby on any types of medication? I always forgot to
check labels for medications when I was doing my elimination diet,
because I don't think of these things as "food". Also, vitamins,
calcium pills, etc have to be checked. This usually requires a phone
call to the manufacturer as they are not required to list non-medicinal
ingredients on these products.


Nothing else. The ABs were short term and immediately pp and they may have
caused the problem.
Actually, getting enough vitamins and minerals on the restricted diet is one
of my friend's concerns but she isn't taking any supplements or meds.

The foods the Mum is eating are from trial and error, food diary, advice
from the gastroenterologist and LC with allergy specialisation. I

listed
them in the OP - there's not more than about 8 foods on the list.
I contacted her Re the salt and sugar aspects last night and as they are

the
only non whole-foods left in the diet, however the salt is sea salt but
she's going to cut both salt and sugar for a week.
There also may be a genetic aspect for metabolism of carbohydrates so

the
sugar may be a problem there.

snip


The other aspect here is that the first daughter had similar symptoms

that
went away after she was weaned at 13 months. This wasn't medically
investigated though although my friend did cut gluten and dairy from her
diet at the time.


According my daughter's gastro, some kids are just super sensitive and
no cause is ever found for the irritated gut, but they grow out of the
sensitivity around 1 year. That would be about the same time frame as
the older sibling in this case.

I agree - some things like this seem to be resolved over time anyway.
Actually both my kids could never tolerate cows milk until well after they
were 1 yo. DD was about 18mo and DS is only now able to drink cows milk
without effect now (22 mo) ... but his main "dairy" source is still me

Of course, he would only recommend
leaving the irritation "untreated" if the baby is otherwise healthy,
gaining weight, etc.


That is like this bub.

I guess it is just a matter of "reading the baby" and deciding what is
best in each case. Formula was pushed by my daughter's gastro after
she turned 6 months, and in hindsight, it is a good thing that we stuck
with the breastfeeding, as the formula he was suggesting (Nutramagen?)
had corn syrup solids as the first ingredient, and it turned out she
was allergic to corn.

I hope it all works out for them and, whatever she chooses, the baby is
and stays healthy.


Your suggestion of checking teh salt and the sugar may be really useful.
She also just learnt of a family thing where "carbohydrates aren't diggested
propperly" (but what she means by this I don't know).

Still on the bm at this stage so that's a plus.
Also - I know I'm not a medical Dr, but sometimes I wonder ... everything
I've read seems to suggest that breastfeeding provides some protection
against ulcerative colitis.
Amanda




 




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