Mercury isn't the Only Toxic Item in Vaccines

David Wright wrote:
In article .com,
Max C. wrote:
David Wright wrote:
Not that I know of. The only thing aluminum has been accused of,
really, is causing Alzheimer's Disease, and those initial reports were
based on faulty lab work.

There is a tiny bit of evidence that organic aluminum compounds may
play some sort of role in dementia, but right now it's almost entirely
speculative.

The only aluminum toxicity report I can think of offhand was that the
actor originally slated to play the Tin Man in "The Wizard of Oz" was
poisoned by aluminum-based makeup (might have been Eddie Albert) and
the role had to be recast (and the makeup changed).
I've read several reports, though no actual studies, implicating
aluminum in the formation of Parkinson's disease. It's my
understanding that high levels of aluminum have been detected in the
substantia nigra region of the brain in Parkinson's disease patients.

In only one study that I could find. It may be true, but it may not,
or it may be only half the story. For example, PD was also associated
with low magnesium, and it may be that you have to have both factors
in play. I don't know. You don't know.

There also seems to be at least some evidence that aluminum may be a
factor in the formation of asthma. While I can't seem to find any
direct studies stating such (I only looked for about 5 minutes) this
one seems to be stating it as a fact:

http://icvts.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/79
"Aluminum has already been determined to cause asthma bronchial and
chronic obstructive pulmonary disease."

Yes, but I think this was primarily due to inhaling aluminum-laden
dusts. I would have believed that was a bad idea even without a
study.

There are two issues, actually.

First, there is some evidence that airborne particulate aluminum does
cause pneumonconiosis.

Second, in several countries (Europe, Australia, and New Zealand)
"potroom asthma" is an accepted occupational disease of workers in
aluminum smelters, but which airborne substance actually causes it is
the subject of ongoing research in the US.

Mark Probert wrote:

David Wright wrote:
In article .com,
Max C. wrote:
David Wright wrote:
Not that I know of. The only thing aluminum has been accused of,
really, is causing Alzheimer's Disease, and those initial reports were
based on faulty lab work.

There is a tiny bit of evidence that organic aluminum compounds may
play some sort of role in dementia, but right now it's almost entirely
speculative.

The only aluminum toxicity report I can think of offhand was that the
actor originally slated to play the Tin Man in "The Wizard of Oz" was
poisoned by aluminum-based makeup (might have been Eddie Albert) and
the role had to be recast (and the makeup changed).
I've read several reports, though no actual studies, implicating
aluminum in the formation of Parkinson's disease. It's my
understanding that high levels of aluminum have been detected in the
substantia nigra region of the brain in Parkinson's disease patients.

In only one study that I could find. It may be true, but it may not,
or it may be only half the story. For example, PD was also associated
with low magnesium, and it may be that you have to have both factors
in play. I don't know. You don't know.

There also seems to be at least some evidence that aluminum may be a
factor in the formation of asthma. While I can't seem to find any
direct studies stating such (I only looked for about 5 minutes) this
one seems to be stating it as a fact:

http://icvts.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/79
"Aluminum has already been determined to cause asthma bronchial and
chronic obstructive pulmonary disease."

Yes, but I think this was primarily due to inhaling aluminum-laden
dusts. I would have believed that was a bad idea even without a
study.

There are two issues, actually.

First, there is some evidence that airborne particulate aluminum does
cause pneumonconiosis.

Second, in several countries (Europe, Australia, and New Zealand)
"potroom asthma" is an accepted occupational disease of workers in
aluminum smelters, but which airborne substance actually causes it is
the subject of ongoing research in the US.

I used to work for Comalco, at the time Australia's largest aluminium
producer. The windows in the office building at the Bell Bay smelter
which faced the ocean appeared to be made of frosted glass. I thought
that this could be the result of some bizarre management decision to
prevent workers looking at the view (the management at my previous
employer would have done that sort of thing, but that is a story for
another day), but it was because those windows also faced the dock
where the alumina was unshipped from the boats bring it from the
refinery and the prevailing winds came from that direction. Dust
control was very good and you couldn't see it in the air or any
evidence of it piling up on the ground, but the invisible particles
had etched the windows over the years since the plant had been built.

This is a scary dust. Comalco had the best and most stringent
occupational health and safety rules of any company I have ever worked
for, and these rules were fully backed by the unions involved. Nobody
moved around this plant without a handy mask, and nobody went into a
mask-required area without one unless they were prepared to be thrown
out of the plant (literally, if necessary).

An another aspect of alternative health, anybody who thinks that those
little fridge magnets sold by the "magnetic therapy" crooks might have
some effect on the body should take a tour though a smelter potroom.
You don't wear a watch that you ever want to use again, you don't
expect your pacemaker to stay inside your body (in fact, if you have
one you are forbidden entry). The Bell Bay smelter consumed 25% of all
the electricity used in Tasmania, and aluminium is referred to as
"solidified electricity" in the industry. The magnetic forces produced
by those huge bus bars can actually be felt, and the feeling is almost
impossible to describe to anyone who hasn't been there.

--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Peter Bowditch wrote:
Mark Probert wrote:

David Wright wrote:
In article .com,
Max C. wrote:
David Wright wrote:
Not that I know of. The only thing aluminum has been accused of,
really, is causing Alzheimer's Disease, and those initial reports were
based on faulty lab work.

There is a tiny bit of evidence that organic aluminum compounds may
play some sort of role in dementia, but right now it's almost entirely
speculative.

The only aluminum toxicity report I can think of offhand was that the
actor originally slated to play the Tin Man in "The Wizard of Oz" was
poisoned by aluminum-based makeup (might have been Eddie Albert) and
the role had to be recast (and the makeup changed).
I've read several reports, though no actual studies, implicating
aluminum in the formation of Parkinson's disease. It's my
understanding that high levels of aluminum have been detected in the
substantia nigra region of the brain in Parkinson's disease patients.
In only one study that I could find. It may be true, but it may not,
or it may be only half the story. For example, PD was also associated
with low magnesium, and it may be that you have to have both factors
in play. I don't know. You don't know.

There also seems to be at least some evidence that aluminum may be a
factor in the formation of asthma. While I can't seem to find any
direct studies stating such (I only looked for about 5 minutes) this
one seems to be stating it as a fact:

http://icvts.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/79
"Aluminum has already been determined to cause asthma bronchial and
chronic obstructive pulmonary disease."
Yes, but I think this was primarily due to inhaling aluminum-laden
dusts. I would have believed that was a bad idea even without a
study.
There are two issues, actually.

First, there is some evidence that airborne particulate aluminum does
cause pneumonconiosis.

Second, in several countries (Europe, Australia, and New Zealand)
"potroom asthma" is an accepted occupational disease of workers in
aluminum smelters, but which airborne substance actually causes it is
the subject of ongoing research in the US.

I used to work for Comalco, at the time Australia's largest aluminium
producer. The windows in the office building at the Bell Bay smelter
which faced the ocean appeared to be made of frosted glass. I thought
that this could be the result of some bizarre management decision to
prevent workers looking at the view (the management at my previous
employer would have done that sort of thing, but that is a story for
another day), but it was because those windows also faced the dock
where the alumina was unshipped from the boats bring it from the
refinery and the prevailing winds came from that direction. Dust
control was very good and you couldn't see it in the air or any
evidence of it piling up on the ground, but the invisible particles
had etched the windows over the years since the plant had been built.

This is a scary dust. Comalco had the best and most stringent
occupational health and safety rules of any company I have ever worked
for, and these rules were fully backed by the unions involved. Nobody
moved around this plant without a handy mask, and nobody went into a
mask-required area without one unless they were prepared to be thrown
out of the plant (literally, if necessary).

That has been my experience with most industries where airborne
particulates are a problem. However, even with proper masking, alumina
particulates are small enough to bypass most masks and, of course, the
other chemicals used in the smelting process are no help, either. It is
really a nasty business.

An another aspect of alternative health, anybody who thinks that those
little fridge magnets sold by the "magnetic therapy" crooks might have
some effect on the body should take a tour though a smelter potroom.
You don't wear a watch that you ever want to use again, you don't
expect your pacemaker to stay inside your body (in fact, if you have
one you are forbidden entry). The Bell Bay smelter consumed 25% of all
the electricity used in Tasmania, and aluminium is referred to as
"solidified electricity" in the industry. The magnetic forces produced
by those huge bus bars can actually be felt, and the feeling is almost
impossible to describe to anyone who hasn't been there.

I visited one of the largest fossil fuel generating electricity plants a
few years ago. In addition to the noise level, which still penetrated
the earplugs I use for shooting and ear muff defenders, I recall the
weird feeling I had throughout my body from the magnetic field. I had to
remove all electronics, etc. and I left my handgun at home. The fields
are so strong that magnetic materials become airborne projectiles.

I did not get my full hearing back for over a week, and an audiometric
test I took a month later showed I still had problems at high
frequencies. Needless to say, my client got a report which was favorable
to the hearing impaired claimant.

David Wright wrote:
In only one study that I could find. It may be true, but it may not,
or it may be only half the story. For example, PD was also associated
with low magnesium, and it may be that you have to have both factors
in play. I don't know. You don't know.

You're right. We don't know. The difference between us is that you
seem willing to dismiss the lack of knowledge and experiment with your
children's health by allowing it to be injected directly into their
bodies. I am not. For non-life threatening diseases such as chicken
pox, measles, mumps and rubella, where contracting the diseases most
often has mild symptoms and grants life-time immunity, I'd rather my
children get the disease than play Russian roulette with their health
by injecting foreign elements into their bodies and hoping for the
best.

It's a fundamental difference in thinking... and one that separates the
pro-pharma group here from the alternative health minded. I find it
interesting that many pro-pharma people here get so upset with that
difference.

Max.

In article ,
Peter Bowditch wrote:

An another aspect of alternative health, anybody who thinks that those
little fridge magnets sold by the "magnetic therapy" crooks might have
some effect on the body should take a tour though a smelter potroom.
You don't wear a watch that you ever want to use again, you don't
expect your pacemaker to stay inside your body (in fact, if you have
one you are forbidden entry). The Bell Bay smelter consumed 25% of all
the electricity used in Tasmania, and aluminium is referred to as
"solidified electricity" in the industry. The magnetic forces produced
by those huge bus bars can actually be felt, and the feeling is almost
impossible to describe to anyone who hasn't been there.

As a side note, this is why aluminum recycling is so cost-effective.
Making aluminum is very expensive (due to the high energy costs), so
being able to recycle it saves a lot of money versus producing it
from bauxite ore.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

In article .com,
Max C. wrote:
David Wright wrote:
In only one study that I could find. It may be true, but it may not,
or it may be only half the story. For example, PD was also associated
with low magnesium, and it may be that you have to have both factors
in play. I don't know. You don't know.

You're right. We don't know. The difference between us is that you
seem willing to dismiss the lack of knowledge and experiment with your
children's health by allowing it to be injected directly into their
bodies. I am not. For non-life threatening diseases such as chicken
pox, measles, mumps and rubella, where contracting the diseases most
often has mild symptoms and grants life-time immunity, I'd rather my
children get the disease than play Russian roulette with their health
by injecting foreign elements into their bodies and hoping for the
best.

Instead, you can play Russian roulette with their fertility (mumps) or
with their lives and brains (measles).

Hey, I even play with my *own* life -- I get a flu shot every year!
How's that for living dangerously?

It's a fundamental difference in thinking... and one that separates the
pro-pharma group here from the alternative health minded. I find it
interesting that many pro-pharma people here get so upset with that
difference.

Thinking differently is one thing. Putting lives and health at risk
is another. I don't care, for example, if you vaccinate your kids for
chicken pox, at least when they're little. But I care a lot if your
kids get to be adolescents and haven't had chicken pox, but you won't
vaccinate them, because they will get very, very sick if they get
chicken pox at that age (or later).

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

(David Wright) wrote:

In article ,
Peter Bowditch wrote:

An another aspect of alternative health, anybody who thinks that those
little fridge magnets sold by the "magnetic therapy" crooks might have
some effect on the body should take a tour though a smelter potroom.
You don't wear a watch that you ever want to use again, you don't
expect your pacemaker to stay inside your body (in fact, if you have
one you are forbidden entry). The Bell Bay smelter consumed 25% of all
the electricity used in Tasmania, and aluminium is referred to as
"solidified electricity" in the industry. The magnetic forces produced
by those huge bus bars can actually be felt, and the feeling is almost
impossible to describe to anyone who hasn't been there.

As a side note, this is why aluminum recycling is so cost-effective.
Making aluminum is very expensive (due to the high energy costs), so
being able to recycle it saves a lot of money versus producing it
from bauxite ore.

It's a long time ago, but if I remember correctly even the most
inefficient recycling reduced production cost of the metal by 95%.
There was enormous incentive to recycle, especially things like drink
cans where massive amounts of scrap could easily be collected and
there was very little mixing of alloys.

The can recycling plant was a couple of hundred metres from my office
and we would occasionally hear the bang when a full can went into the
mix.

I mentioned Comalco's OH&S policies. It was an immediate sacking
offence (approved by all unions) to bring a container of liquid into
the plant. This applied even to people like me who spent all their
days inside the computer department offices and never went near hot
metal. The only exception was the staff canteen, but we had to drink
everything in the room and leave the container behind. The man who
operated the switchboard at Bell Bay had been blinded when some fool
threw a full can of soft drink into a pot as he was walking by and he
copped a face full of 800C liquid aluminium as the drink vapourised.
(Comalco was about the 10th largest company in Australia at the time,
and this man could recognise the voice of anybody who had ever rung
the smelter while he was on the switch. It was weirder than caller ID
to have him answer the phone and address you by name.)

--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

David Wright wrote:
Thinking differently is one thing. Putting lives and health at risk
is another. I don't care, for example, if you vaccinate your kids for
chicken pox, at least when they're little. But I care a lot if your
kids get to be adolescents and haven't had chicken pox, but you won't
vaccinate them, because they will get very, very sick if they get
chicken pox at that age (or later).

I love to read scaremongering. Mainly because it's so easy to
identify. For example, this statement "...because they will get very,
very sick if they get chicken pox at that age (or later)." This
statement is, of course, an outright lie. It's scaremongering. Now,
if you wanted to be considered credible, you *could* have told the
truth and said "There's a greater chance that chicken pox, contracted
later in life, could more easily lead to complications than when
contracted at a young age" but you chose to go the scaremongering route
and put things in absolute terms. Not credible at all.

Perhaps you'd like to post the data to support your claim that *IF*
chicken pox is contracted as an adolescent that they *WILL get very,
very sick." I've read the data on the increase in possible
complications. Let's see if you have.

Max.

In article .com,
Max C. wrote:
David Wright wrote:
Thinking differently is one thing. Putting lives and health at risk
is another. I don't care, for example, if you vaccinate your kids for
chicken pox, at least when they're little. But I care a lot if your
kids get to be adolescents and haven't had chicken pox, but you won't
vaccinate them, because they will get very, very sick if they get
chicken pox at that age (or later).

I love to read scaremongering. Mainly because it's so easy to
identify. For example, this statement "...because they will get very,
very sick if they get chicken pox at that age (or later)." This
statement is, of course, an outright lie. It's scaremongering. Now,
if you wanted to be considered credible, you *could* have told the
truth and said "There's a greater chance that chicken pox, contracted
later in life, could more easily lead to complications than when
contracted at a young age" but you chose to go the scaremongering route
and put things in absolute terms. Not credible at all.

Perhaps you'd like to post the data to support your claim that *IF*
chicken pox is contracted as an adolescent that they *WILL get very,
very sick." I've read the data on the increase in possible
complications. Let's see if you have.

I didn't mention the word "complications." That's wishful thinking on
your part. When I said "very sick" I just meant that the victim is
going to be sick as a dog for days, even if there are no
complications. And of course shingles is an ever-present future
possibility, whether you get chickenpox as a child or an adult.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

David Wright wrote:
In article .com,
Max C. wrote:
David Wright wrote:
Thinking differently is one thing. Putting lives and health at risk
is another. I don't care, for example, if you vaccinate your kids for
chicken pox, at least when they're little. But I care a lot if your
kids get to be adolescents and haven't had chicken pox, but you won't
vaccinate them, because they will get very, very sick if they get
chicken pox at that age (or later).

I love to read scaremongering. Mainly because it's so easy to
identify. For example, this statement "...because they will get very,
very sick if they get chicken pox at that age (or later)." This
statement is, of course, an outright lie. It's scaremongering. Now,
if you wanted to be considered credible, you *could* have told the
truth and said "There's a greater chance that chicken pox, contracted
later in life, could more easily lead to complications than when
contracted at a young age" but you chose to go the scaremongering route
and put things in absolute terms. Not credible at all.

Perhaps you'd like to post the data to support your claim that *IF*
chicken pox is contracted as an adolescent that they *WILL get very,
very sick." I've read the data on the increase in possible
complications. Let's see if you have.

I didn't mention the word "complications." That's wishful thinking on
your part. When I said "very sick" I just meant that the victim is
going to be sick as a dog for days, even if there are no
complications.

Presumably Max didn't have chickenpox as an adult; if he had, he would
have understood you immediately. I had it in my early twenties, along
with my husband and oldest child, who was 6 weeks old. It can still
make me shudder to think about it.

And it's at *least* a week of being as sick as a dog, as well as a
couple weeks more of insane itching and probable scarring.

Complications aren't necessary for chickenpox to make you very, very
sick.

Cathy


And of course shingles is an ever-present future
possibility, whether you get chickenpox as a child or an adult.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth