Multiple Chemical Sensitivity - The End of Controversy

Medusa wrote:

On Oct 17, 2:55 pm, Ilena Rose wrote:

May God protect these brave scientists from the ravages of the MCS
fake skeptics.

http://ilenarose.blogspot.com
Health Lover

Written by Dr. Martin Pall/Matthew Hogg
Wednesday, 17 October 2007

No, this won't be the end of the controversy. Some will just not
believe what they don't want to know.

Exactly. People with somatic illnesses will continue to refuse to
accept that there can be any internal cause and will keep on looking
for something outside themselves to blame.


Medusa

AA #2281
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

wrote:
On Oct 20, 6:43 am, The One True Zhen Jue
wrote:

Geez, PA, I'm (dramatic pause) a Licensed Acupuncturist!

I've seen more people
who've claimed to have MCS than you've had years of education.

My experience with MCS is far beyond your comprehension. Otherwise,
you'd be in total agreement with me.



What state are you in? What is your license number?
If you are going to brag that you are an acupuncturist, then you need
to give this information to anyone that asks for it.

That would be true if you were seeking treatment. Are you seeking treatment?


I am asking for it.

On Oct 21, 1:39 pm, "
wrote:
On Oct 21, 6:30 am, Coleah wrote:
ing others. You admitted *bigot*.



You people get what give......
(go back into your coma, Jan)

Isn't it time you crawled back into your Robin's Nest?

Is that your covert way of announcing that you
have been searching for information on me?

On Oct 20, 10:22 pm, rpautrey2 wrote:
On Oct 20, 8:43 am, The One True Zhen Jue
wrote:

On Oct 20, 3:17 am, rpautrey2 wrote:

TOTZJ, what are your credentials and/or experience with MCS? NONE!!!!!
PA

My credentials? Are you freakin' kidding? You don't already know
from my 'nym?
Geez, PA, I'm (dramatic pause) a Licensed Acupuncturist!
I've seen more people
who've claimed to have MCS than you've had years of education.

My experience with MCS is far beyond your comprehension. Otherwise,
you'd be in total agreement with me.

TOTZJ: How do you treat chronic sinusitis with acupuncture? How
successful are the treatments? So what you are saying is you treat
psychosomatic disease(MCS!?) with acupuncture. Is your treatment a
passive or active placebo? PA

Psychosomatic disorders occasionally present in my clinic. Yes, I can
treat anxiety and am often able to guide these individuals to
psychologists or psychiatrists. For some reason, you seem to believe
that psychosomatic illness don't exist, yet you believe that MCS is an
organic disorder. Perhaps you should learn something about medicine
before pontificating, Quack Daddy!

On Oct 21, 3:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue
wrote:

Psychosomatic illnesses are real illnesses. Some have an organic
etiology, some (MCS) do not. Without a proper differential diagnosis,
proper care is unlikely. If a person has allergies, I don't tell them
they are nuts. If they have been poisoned, I don't tell them they are
nuts. If they believe they have MCS, I don't tell them they are
nuts. What I do is to suggest better use of their time & energy.

Oh, goody. I meet your credentials for having an illness. I was
poisoned, and that made me intolerant of minute chemical exposures.

I spent my time and energy avoiding all the chemicals that made me
sick. Now I am better, but cautious.

When you greatly reduce their anxiety & discomfort, you earn
credibility & their trust. Once established, you can counsel them as
to better coping strategies. Proper diet and regular eating times
help. This not only provides proper nutrition, but also some
structure & a sense of control. Helping the patient find better use
of their time & better outlets for their stress helps. Yoga, pilates,
weights, martial arts, and cardio are healthy, provide structure, and
a sense of control & accomplishment.

I try to get patients to remember the time before they had the MCS and
suggest that they can get back to that. The more a person embraces
these positive methods of self-control & self-fullfilment, the less
reactive they are to the "chemicals".

Yeah, right. I suppose you'd tell somebody who has lost a limb to
remember the time before the injury in order to get "normal" life
back. It's not gonna happen.

Try it and experience it for yourself. If you need further guidance
and/or treatment for anxiety, check your yellow pages for an
acupuncturist near you.

I don't need any treatment for "anxiety." I would like yoga classes,
but, guess what? My insurance doesn't cover it, and I can't afford it
anymore.

Maybe you didn't know it, but "health" insurance is for getting sick.
They won't pay for much, if any, preventive medical care. But that's
another rant about the state of health care in the United States.

Medusa

AA #2281

Medusa wrote:

I spent my time and energy avoiding all the chemicals that made me
sick. Now I am better, but cautious.

What are these chemicals? Please don't just say generalities like
"paint". The names of the chemical compounds, please.
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

On Oct 22, 5:04 pm, Medusa wrote:
On Oct 21, 3:00 pm, The One True Zhen Jue
wrote:

Psychosomatic illnesses are real illnesses. Some have an organic
etiology, some (MCS) do not. Without a proper differential diagnosis,
proper care is unlikely. If a person has allergies, I don't tell them
they are nuts. If they have been poisoned, I don't tell them they are
nuts. If they believe they have MCS, I don't tell them they are
nuts. What I do is to suggest better use of their time & energy.

Oh, goody. I meet your credentials for having an illness. I was
poisoned, and that made me intolerant of minute chemical exposures.

I spent my time and energy avoiding all the chemicals that made me
sick. Now I am better, but cautious.

When you greatly reduce their anxiety & discomfort, you earn
credibility & their trust. Once established, you can counsel them as
to better coping strategies. Proper diet and regular eating times
help. This not only provides proper nutrition, but also some
structure & a sense of control. Helping the patient find better use
of their time & better outlets for their stress helps. Yoga, pilates,
weights, martial arts, and cardio are healthy, provide structure, and
a sense of control & accomplishment.

I try to get patients to remember the time before they had the MCS and
suggest that they can get back to that. The more a person embraces
these positive methods of self-control & self-fullfilment, the less
reactive they are to the "chemicals".

Yeah, right. I suppose you'd tell somebody who has lost a limb to
remember the time before the injury in order to get "normal" life
back. It's not gonna happen.

Losing a limb is an organic disorder. It can be positively determined
if someone is missing a limb. Perhaps a prosthesis would be made for
such a person. Now that I've entertained your diversion, lets get
back to the topic. I have seen people with MCS give up on it and go
back to the life they had before. Being a victim isn't as appealing
to some and others don't get enough secondary gain to make the effort
worthwhile. The disease only lasts as long as it is being maintained,
Medusa. Stop feeding it and it WILL go away.

People with MCS, by definition, have a non-organic somatization
disorder. People who've been poisoned have an organic disorder. They
don't have the delusion of being made ill by things that did not and
do not make them ill. They do not react ONLY to the smell of the
odors and they do react to the poison. MCS patients do not react to
the chemicals, they react to the BELIEF that they are being exposed.
You'd know that if you had bothered to read the many high-quality,
replicated studies that have been posted here.


Try it and experience it for yourself. If you need further guidance
and/or treatment for anxiety, check your yellow pages for an
acupuncturist near you.

I don't need any treatment for "anxiety."

That is your perogative. You can continue to live with your anxiety
by denying it or sublimating it. That is your choice, but a very poor
one.


I would like yoga classes,
but, guess what? My insurance doesn't cover it, and I can't afford it
anymore.

I suppose you'd like your insurance to cover broken hearts & shattered
dreams, too. Perhaps you'd like it provide roadside auto assistance
with towing as well. There IS an insurance that covers many of the
things that most don't. I won't mention its name because that would
essentially be an advertisement for a commercial product, but the
mascot is a duck.

If you'd like to do yoga, you can buy a book, rent or buy a DVD, or
find instructions on the Internet. IF you want to do yoga, you can
CHOOSE to make that happen.


Maybe you didn't know it, but "health" insurance is for getting sick.

No ****! Did you know fire insurance is for gasp! Fire (Fire!).
Its not for non-combustion related events.

They won't pay for much, if any, preventive medical care. But that's
another rant about the state of health care in the United States.

Many policies will pay for or contribute to smoking cessation and some
will even pay part of a Gym membership.
Other than that, we all have to be adults and take reasonable care of
ourselves. Isn't that a strange concept, the idea that the individual
is responsible for themselves? Yeah, some corporation or gov't should
do everything for us so that we can spend more time complaining.

Seriously, what would you have them cover in order to prevent MCS?
Sexual abuse seems to be the most common risk factor (as far as I
know), so do they need to become active in preventing that? How
should they go about it?


Medusa

AA #2281

"The Proven Liar" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Oct 20, 10:22 pm, rpautrey2 wrote:
On Oct 20, 8:43 am, The One True Zhen Jue
wrote:

On Oct 20, 3:17 am, rpautrey2 wrote:

TOTZJ, what are your credentials and/or experience with MCS?
NONE!!!!!
PA

My credentials? Are you freakin' kidding? You don't already know
from my 'nym?
Geez, PA, I'm (dramatic pause) a Licensed Acupuncturist!
I've seen more people
who've claimed to have MCS than you've had years of education.

Key word *seen*. Not the same as hed it, been there done that.

My experience with MCS is far beyond your comprehension. Otherwise,
you'd be in total agreement with me.

TOTZJ: How do you treat chronic sinusitis with acupuncture? How
successful are the treatments? So what you are saying is you treat
psychosomatic disease(MCS!?) with acupuncture. Is your treatment a
passive or active placebo? PA

Psychosomatic disorders

ZZzz.

Psycholobabble...

The entity *somatization disorder* is psychobabble and is obtained from the
DSM-IV manual and is used by psychologists and psychiatrists.MD's have
borrowed
the entity for their own uses. It is a spurious diagnosis with no
laboratory
indicators.

that somatization disorder is a kind of junk category into which physicians
dump patients presenting with mind/behaviorialsymptoms and/or a history of
such
which the physician does not fancy or understand, especially if the patient
does not present with symptoms or symptoms which are not separate diagnoses
(also anon-scientific way of separating symptoms and causality) . I
mentiont
his because mercury and lead are both known to cause primarily "psychiatric"
symptoms, with a history of emotional instability, etc.in patients.


So a "scientist" is someone who makes "a priori" judgements about what
neurological symptoms a heavy metal poisoned patient can and cannot have. A
"scientist" demands laboratory indicators whenever his fraternity does so.
When the fraternity does not do so, the esteemed scientist Rx's Prozac like
*mad*. But if the patient's complaints appear in some kind of package
which
don't meet the prejudices of the male clinician/voodoo doctor, then it's
necessary to pull out theDSM-IV manual and wax on about scientific
discipline
and create from thin air a "somatization disorder".


It's just another way of saying that one can create a loose definition of a
nebulous condition and then stretch it to label anything which appears
bizarre,
so that rather than actually diagnose and solve problems you can dump the
ones
you don't like into the recycle bin andlet the DSM-IV manual thumpers profit
from the stash. That way everybody is happy. The male voodoo doctor gets
to
see himself as a scientist and the psych therapist gets another client.


I believe that SD is used by doctors who do not like the idea that
conditiions
which affect the brain cause certain mental states and behaviors which are
not
in keeping with their own requirements for how disease is supposed to
manifest
in the human body. I believe the medical profession has an alliance with
the
psych profession because they share a common belief system.


No, the starting point is to go back to college and unlearn the psychobabble
taught to physicians in med school. But that cannot be done--with all the
psychological investments involved in the career and selfhood and one's
supremecy of being--so instead one wages war on the Chronic Fatigue,
Fibromyalgia, and Multiple Chemical Sensitivitysyndromes, since these
syndromes
are diseases of both body and brain,in which affective disorders are
documented
in all three. But since the Freudian-psychobabble-educated physician
suffers
cognitivedissonance when presented with these, the syndromes must be
attacked.
Continuing education is not an option. Instead, reality must be shaped to
fit
the psychological needs of the profession, and the patients need to be
hazed.


So rather than counsel with a psychotherapist over issues of selfhood and
megalomania and deep insecurity which interfere with the process of
continuing
education--which is also the scientific process itself--it is necessary to
reformulate these disease syndromes so that they fit into the 20th-century
mind-body conceptual dualism taught to physicians, in which brain diseases
are
separate from diseases of thebody and mind states are separate from both.
This
needs to be done despite the fact that poisons such as lead and mercury have
been known for 100 years to poison the brain, body, and mind all at the same
time. So Science needs to be bent and manipulated to serve a profession
which
maintains a conceputal framework which is not rooted in Science, and those
teachings must be maintained for those sychologically inclined to
conservatism
and intellectual dominance,all properly wrapped in the impressive rhetoric
of
scientific and clinical objectivity.


A lot of your responses are flak garbage which you use to exhaust
pariticpants.
I made my position perfectly clear. Decades of psychobiological research,
including century-long scientfically acquired knowledge on the effect of
poisons such as heavy metals on the brain, show that mood and mental states
can
and do derive fromorganic origins. Meanwhile state-credentialed MD's are
writing books and articles about how biological psychiatry is
"pseudoscience",
a"myth", and a "fraud". On *this* subject the present generation is
corrupt,
and is not going to give up its intellectual commitment to the psychobabble
it
received in med school.


On the issue of MCS, ascribing "affective disorders" to "psychologicalf
actors"
is an opinion which is rammed through as Science. It is accompanied by
dismissive descriptions of mind states and behavior of the patients, with
all
kinds of unscientific judgements andassumptions as to 1) whether those mind
states and behavior arelegitimate (e.g. fear of chemicals, stress of chronic
illness), and 2)whether the mind states and behavior have an organic or
non-organic origin.


MCS *will* receive a fair hearing only when the medical profession gives up
its
intellecutal commitment to the teachings of psychology as the only
explanation
for how mind states and behavior alter with disease.


You asked me for evidence of "mind-body conceptual dualism" and I just gave
an
example from a psychobabbling physician in this thread. Your technique is
to
bait and throw out idiotic flak, so that now we can have a separate
existential
debate as to whether there really is adualistic mind-body conception in
modern
medicine.


Yes, physicians do recognize a connection between the two--they call it
somatization disorder. That is, your boyfriend broke up with you and you
are
self-pitiful due to your past child raising and have along history of
maladaptive behaviors and you have sunken into depression and can't
concentrate
and now your immunity has sunk and now you have an infection etc etc. They
may
*also* talk about a"psychological component" as being the result of chronic
stress from the illness.


But the medical profession is selective about when the connection operates
in
one direction vs. the other.


The fact is, there isn't an economy for the problem of chronic mercury and
lead
exposure causing maladaptive dysfunctional unhealthy minds and behaviors.
Not
because the science doesn't exist to support it. But because the economy
doesn't exist to produce the professional intellect to study, talk about,
and
treat it. The psychotherapists and psychologists would be in less demand.
There would be no drugs to patent. Hence the facts are dropped from
consciousness. That mercury and lead f**k up people's emotions and minds
(in
addition to a hundred other symptoms) is so dropped out of consciousness
that
MD's can write books that argue that Biological Psychiatry is a fraud.


As a result, one must conclude that MCS is not caused by poisons--which just
about everyone who has the illness and has clinical experience treating it
argues--but rather is a somatization disorder.


This is how economy and professional cultures distort reality and allow
ingrained assumptions and bias to manipulate and distort the process of
scientific inquiry.


No, many physicians recognize that they are often dealing with illnesses
that
involve both the mind & the body. It would seem as if you are attributing
their admission of this fact to some sort of denial instead. Incorrect. But
commonly the same conclusion that some patients erroneously arrive at if the
doc declines to attribute the illness to physical factors alone.


This thread is in the context of MCS. Within the context of this subject
physicians *do not* generally conceive or discuss depression*or* anxiety in
any
terms other than the psychologist's, regardless *how* the psychologist
constructs the relationship, it is the*psychologist's* constructiona and the
psychologist's ideology. The very own terminology employed by the author of
the medical textbook cited, who is at the pro-MCS end of the debate *within*
the mainstream, is that it is an illness with "psychological factors".


Since you mention arthritis in the context of this thread on MCS (which is a
disease its propopents argue is the result of*poisoning*), I will say that
poisons such as lead and mercury commonly causes brain symptoms *first*,
because these poisons are emically attracted to brain tissue. The first
stage
of these poisonings is commonly brain symptoms only. Patients may suffer
depression or anxiety for *years* before the symptoms originating in organs
*below neck* emerge in sufficient degree to cause the patient to seek care.
So
the depression in these cases does *not* follow arthritis and the depression
is
not something "psychological" *asdistinct* from the physical. The
depression
is not of the"psychological" domain. It is a physical symptom no less than
arthritis. It is not a "component" and it is not a "factor". It is
a*symptom*.


The problem is conceptualizing depression and anxiety as being in adifferent
category than "physical" symptoms. This division in thought is reflected by
your own use of language and the very manner in which you discuss depression
in
relation to other symptoms. Depression commonly bears no relation to the
other
symptoms except they both share a similar cause in some *poison* which has
attacked the brain together with other organs in the body.This
conceptualizing
is largely responsible for the opposition to these diseases by the medical
profession.


Depression is not a *component* by "a priori" assumption. If doctors want
to
assume the nature of the pathology in a conceptual framework and language
*originated by psychologists*, then they should seek psychology as a career
and
*not* human physiology. If doctors want to educate us about how depression
affects human health--but *not* how mercury and lead affect affect brain and
emotional and mental health--then they should be psychologists and lecture
on
Ophrah Winfrey, but *not* manipulate the research and interpretation of MCS
research by projecting their own indoctrination onto reality.


Depression needn't be a *component* and it needn't be a *factor *simply
because
psychologists (and physicians loyal to their ideology) insist that it be so.


I do not agree that I am arguing with myself and I do not agree we are
simply
talking about terminology. I have a good first-hand understanding of the
disease, I have a good understanding of non-mainstream discussions of the
disease, and I have good understanding of mainstream discussions of the
disease. Within the mainstream the depression/anxiety is presently
discussed
as being a"factor" or "component"--*not* a symptom. Ten years ago the
depression/anxiety was discussed as being *causative*. There has beena
gradual
shift in language as the disorder has been *grudgingly*accepted as being
somatic, but the acceptance has been gradual, in which the
depression/anxiety
has altered from being "primary" to being a "factor" or a "component". No
this
is not simply terminology but reflects changing conceptions of the disease
as
the medical society isslowly accepting that chemical intolerance exists, but
cannot shake lose its belief system for how depression and anxiety play a
role
in these diseases.


You say that much is not understood about the disease. Then I expect that
the
medical society which you defend *suspend* its assumptiosn about
depression/anxeity being primary *or* a "component" or "factor"in any
causative
way regarding chemical intolerance, and to cease using language which
communicates that very conception.


A neurologist who has decribed what actually happens in MCS is that the
brain
is abnormally stimulated by the chemical and an electrochemical reaction
occurs
in the brain in which the neurotoxicant glutamate is released and brain
cells
swell and the patients suffers debiliitating symptoms. He further states
that
this process is a process of ongoing injury to brain cells, a disease of
pre-existing brain cell injury with continuing brain cell injury
uponchemical
exposures. He reached these conclusions after studying changes in EEG
measurements in which patients were exposed tochemicals such as paint,
gasoline, perfume, lacquer, etc. He found wildly altering EEG measurements
upon chemical exposure and found evidence of dementia in the patient in
various
areas of the brain, with brain function deteriorating upon exposure. This
neurologist'sattempt 10 years ago to gather a scientific audience for his
findingsresearch was frustrated and obstructed while at the same time
descriptions by mainstream medical scientists and professionals of
"affective
disorders" being primary or a causitive "factor" or"component" are accepted
without question. I think that if one examines the *neurological*
observations
made and explanations advanced for what is happening in the brain upon
chemical
exposures, one would find the descriptions of "affective disorders" and
"somatization disorders" as being causitive "components"/"factors" to be
asinine in their utter vacuity with regard to the subject.


So I do not even agree with the primacy which is given to anxiety/depression
in
these diseases because examinations of the disease which actually have some
neurobiological depth find that anxeity/depression have little to do with
the
disease process. It is a sideshow produced by persons who know nothing of
the
disease and are prefectly content to send both the patients and neurological
investigations into their disease into the garbage chute. What has been
occuring has been a type of medical and sociological final solution to a
disease and its sufferers which appear to be bizarre to many uninformed.


But because the numbers of affected is so high, the culture and the society
is
forced to make some kind of adjustments in its willingness to admit the
reality
of the disease, but because it resists explanations outside of the
intellectual
box it has been taught, it still cannot accept chemical intolerance because
it
cannot fit the emical intolerance together with the affective disorders,
because it is not willing to alter its dogma regarding how affective
disorders
present themselves with other brain symptoms in body-brain diseases.


No I'm sorry but this is not simply about terminology.


Don't kid yourselves. If you think the debate is resolved by physicians who
like to throw around big terms like "somatization" as if they are experts on
the topic, don't kid yourselves. Go get your Shrink's license and do the
kind
psycho babbling and psycho labelling instead of passing yourselves off as
honest scientists. In that role, rather than as the frustrated shrinks you
presently are, you can get all the hard-ons you want writing profiles for
Abnormal Psychology journals.


By the way, I just recently spoke to a mother of an autistic child who said
her
child has "raging" chemical sensitivities. This I think will demand some
more
inventive, delusional, and self-elevating psychobabble from frustrated
psychologists in the physicians lounge. Autistic children make good meat for
physicians contemptuous of new diseases which stretch their education.


Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and Multiple Chemical Sensitivity
syndromes are beyond the medical education and intellect of the present
generation. The medical textbooks which properly deal with these diseases
medically and scientifically will be written by the next generation. The
present generation of sci/med professionals generally will protect its
intellectual turf until it retires, and hese patients will be scoffed at,
ridiculed, marginalized etc. until fresh yound minds, which will not find
these
diseases to be strange, will give these diseases the study and respect they
deserve

"Peter Bowditch" wrote in message
...
Medusa wrote:

I spent my time and energy avoiding all the chemicals that made me
sick. Now I am better, but cautious.

What are these chemicals?

ZZzz. One does not need to know exactly which chemicals.

News Flash! CHEMICALS, CHEMICALS, CHEMICALS EVERYWHERE.



Please don't -- TELL OTHERS WHAT THEY CAN AND CANNOT SAY!
Peter Bowditch

"Jan Drew" wrote:


"Peter Bowditch" wrote in message
.. .
Medusa wrote:

I spent my time and energy avoiding all the chemicals that made me
sick. Now I am better, but cautious.

What are these chemicals?

ZZzz. One does not need to know exactly which chemicals.

Yes, Jan, one does need to know which chemicals.


News Flash! CHEMICALS, CHEMICALS, CHEMICALS EVERYWHERE.

That is correct. There are molecules of oxygen, carbon dioxide and
dihydrogen monoxide in the space between my eyes and my computer
screen, plus nitrogen (a component of cyanide) and argon.

Next to my keyboard (made of some chemicals derived from petroleum) is
a container made of some chemical which underwent a permanent change
at some time in the past to make it quite hard. Inside that container
is a mixture of chemicals which includes dihydrogen monoxide, some
plant-derived phytochemicals with a brown colour, tannin, caffeine and
some sort of anti-oxidants. When preparing the mixture I added another
chemical mixture containing animal fats, sugars and assorted proteins,
and I finished it off with some small parcels containing lactose,
phelylalanine, aspartame, starch and maltodextrin. To finish it off I
used an implement made of iron, carbon and nickel (would that be TWO
heavy metals?) to agitate the mixture. It will shortly be mixing with
enzymes and hydrochloric acid (which is more than 50% chlorine, a gas
so poisonous that it is banned in warfare). When next seen, most of
the brown colouring chemicals will have been removed (leaving a yellow
residue) and there will be a significant concentration of urea (the
first organic chemical to be artificially created).




Please don't -- TELL OTHERS WHAT THEY CAN AND CANNOT SAY!

Did I just detect you telling me what I can and cannot say? How very
hypocritical of you.

By the way - I didn't tell anyone what to say. I asked a question, to
which I am yet to receive an answer. Which reminds me - according to
your rules you shouldn't be responding because I wasn't asking you.
How very hypocritical of you.
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com