New Target of the Food Police (CSPI)

Cathy Weeks wrote:

Bob Pastorio wrote in message news:vr9gfn58gvuu32@=
corp.supernews.com...
=20
Rewards in general are a bad idea, but using food (even things that
are good for you) sets up a whole chain of consequences that are
bad. Children who are rewarded with food tend to eat when they are
not hungry and to eat junk food instead of nutritious food, imho.

Sweeping generalizations like this are patently absurd. I have four=20
slender kids who eat wisely. I rewarded and still reward them=20
routinely with food and other things for positive accomplishment.
=20
You surely aren't using your anecdotal evidence as proof are you?=20

Of course not. I'm saying that the sweeping statement above isn't=20
universal and that it's simply too extreme to be credited. But,=20
speaking of proof, some that supports that business expostulated above=20
about food rewards would be nice. Kids eat when they're not hungry and=20
they junk food *because* they've been rewarded with food?

Children who are not rewarded work longer and harder on the
tasks they are given *because* they want to learn and the task
is inherently interesting to begin with.

What prattle. I have four kids. I was a kid. I know and knew lots of=20
kids. I taught kids. Positive reinforcement works for most people.=20
Treating accomplishment as its own reward may well work with the=20
strongly self-motivated, but I doubt it based on my 62 years of=20
experience. Everybody else needs a bit more than that cold and austere =

vision.

Children who see no reward for their efforts work harder. On what plane=
t?
=20
Well, actually, they do. Let me be more specific. Children who see no
reward from those who are trying to get them to do something tend to
work harder.

In all my years of dealing with children as teacher, scout leader,=20
parent and observer, I say this isn't the case, based on more than a=20
half-century of experience.

It also needs definition here. What is a reward? The sense I'm getting=20
from your assertions is that the process should unfold this way: Child=20
get an assignment (of whatever sort appropriate in the setting), works=20
on it and finishes it or not. If finished, it is graded and the child=20
is informed of the grade. If not, it is marked as a failed exercise.=20
Explanation of the rationale for the grade is given. End of story.

That's what I'm gleaning from the body of negative comment about both=20
physical reward and praise for results achieved. If I misunderstand=20
it, please let me know where.

Rewards of any sort tend to shape children into
externally-motivated individuals. =20

Look. The essential reality is that we're hierarchical. We're=20
competitive. We're political (which is both of them and many more). We=20
have ingrained in our sensibilities the clich=E9 of the carrot and the=20
stick. The reason it's a clich=E9 is because it's axiomatic that it works=
=2E

You might try reading the following
book:

In the 60's, my then-wife and I read *all* the books about child=20
raising. We read Ginott and Spock and I'm having a mental block on all=20
the others. They contradicted each other endlessly and offered wildly=20
impractical advice and admonitions. We made them into three big piles,=20
tied them with stout twine and left them at the curb one garbage day.=20
We made up our own set of house laws and ran things that way,=20
correcting and changing as we became more experienced.

Punished By Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans,
A's, Praise, and Other Bribes by Alfie Kohn (Author)

I don't think I'll read the book. When "Bribes" is his operative word,=20
it's a less-than-objective assessment. A former teacher with a new=20
business http://tinyurl.com/w3km here's a whole lot about him and=20
many paces to see what he's about.

Alfie doesn't like competition or grades. He doesn't like hierarchies.=20
There's a lot he doesn't like. here's a short blurb praising him.=20
http://www.winona.org/TSOCD/Alfie_Kohn/alfie_kohn.html

I spent a good number of years is marketing and sales promotion. I=20
created and implemented inventive programs for all sorts of desired=20
results. Peer recognition and reward *always* got better results than=20
any other way we tried. The mere fact of a tangible reward, almost no=20
mater how humble, served to motivate people to perform better. The=20
mere fact of posting results in competitive situations served to=20
motivate people to perform better. The evidence was obvious enough.=20
Measured performance levels were always recorded. Subjects ranged from=20
sales to manufacturing defect control, to waste management to=20
suggestions for improved group function. With incentives, the results=20
were always better. Invariably. Without exception.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

Daddy to Robin Frances 2/63, Carin Lyn 6/64, James Andrew 4/66, Carla=20
Elise 7/91

Pastorio

In article ,
toto wrote:

Except that the evaluation will be in the terms that are valued by
society...
which is "someone other than the child". While a 6yo may think that the
sentence he has written is exceptional because it is done in purple ink, the
17yo is unlikely to believe her essay is brilliant for that reason!

The child needs constructive feedback on his work, that is not the
same as a grade or a reward though.

For example, if a student writes a story, the teacher should tell him
or her what is good about it and model the correct language.

There you go -- the teacher sets the standard by which the work is judged.
Positive feedback IS a reward!

snip

Breaking out the chocolates at home because Johnny has
made it into Harvard is a celebration, not a reward (unless
Johnny eats all the chocolate!). In the case of the shopkeeper's
chocolate, I suppose the shopkeeper would view it as a reward,
but I am not convinced that is how the child sees it. Firstly, the
child does not value the shopkeeper's opinion as highly as a
parent's or teacher's opinion, so the chocolate isn't invested
with a huge emotional weight.

That is true, but the programs we are talking about are ones that
are intrusive in the schools and presented to the children *as*
rewards for their grades in school.

I must have missed that part of the thread somehow. Certainly that is not the
case in my state (nor in my country, I would guess).

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:39:25 +1100, Chookie
wrote:

For example, if a student writes a story, the teacher should tell him
or her what is good about it and model the correct language.

There you go -- the teacher sets the standard by which the work is judged.
Positive feedback IS a reward!

Not in the sense of external rewards. The child gets to judge for
himself whether his work is good or bad as a whole. You are giving
him standards to judge by, not rewards.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

In article ,
toto wrote:

For example, if a student writes a story, the teacher should tell him
or her what is good about it and model the correct language.

There you go -- the teacher sets the standard by which the work is judged.
Positive feedback IS a reward!

Not in the sense of external rewards. The child gets to judge for
himself whether his work is good or bad as a whole. You are giving
him standards to judge by, not rewards.

And the positive attention from the teacher isn't a reward?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:34:03 +1100, Chookie
wrote:

In article ,
toto wrote:

For example, if a student writes a story, the teacher should tell him
or her what is good about it and model the correct language.

There you go -- the teacher sets the standard by which the work is judged.
Positive feedback IS a reward!

Not in the sense of external rewards. The child gets to judge for
himself whether his work is good or bad as a whole. You are giving
him standards to judge by, not rewards.

And the positive attention from the teacher isn't a reward?

There is a difference between encouragement and praise.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

In article ,
toto wrote:

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:34:03 +1100, Chookie
wrote:

In article ,
toto wrote:

For example, if a student writes a story, the teacher should tell him
or her what is good about it and model the correct language.

There you go -- the teacher sets the standard by which the work is
judged.
Positive feedback IS a reward!

Not in the sense of external rewards. The child gets to judge for
himself whether his work is good or bad as a whole. You are giving
him standards to judge by, not rewards.

And the positive attention from the teacher isn't a reward?

There is a difference between encouragement and praise.

Please elucidate. To me, telling a person that they have met an external
standard is a type of reward. Giving them a chocolate for the same reason is
also a reward. Some rewards are better than others, but I don't think we can
eliminate external rewards (which is what I think you would like).

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:43:24 +1100, Chookie
wrote:

And the positive attention from the teacher isn't a reward?

There is a difference between encouragement and praise.

Please elucidate. To me, telling a person that they have met
an external standard is a type of reward.

Telling them they have met an external standard if the standard
is objective isn't a reward because they can verify that they met
the standard without your input if they know what the standard
is. Teachers can simply tell them what the standard is so they
can evaluate the work for themselves.

Giving them a chocolate for the same reason is also a reward.

This is a reward and one that doesn't even relate to the work.
That is one of the problems with rewards. They don't tell you
anything, except that someone else approves of you. They
don't give you a standard to judge your work by.

Some rewards are better than others, but I don't think we can
eliminate external rewards (which is what I think you would like).

I think we can. Internal rewards given by the person himself, otoh,
will not be eliminated, but we can almost eliminate rewards that
are external if we allow kids to judge for themselves.

Examples he

If I say *you are a good boy for cleaning your room,* the child may
know that he didn't do such a good job (maybe he pushed some of
the toys under the bed). If I give him a sticker, he knows that he
got the sticker under false pretenses and he will be tempted to
do the job quickly and only to what he knows you will see since
that gets him his sticker. If I say you put all the blocks on the
shelf and the books are all lined up straight, then I have given him
an objective standard and he can think *I did a good job cleaning
up, but I can do better next time, if I put away the stuff I hid under
the bed.*


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

In article ,
toto wrote:

Please elucidate. To me, telling a person that they have met
an external standard is a type of reward.

Telling them they have met an external standard if the standard
is objective isn't a reward because they can verify that they met
the standard without your input if they know what the standard
is. Teachers can simply tell them what the standard is so they
can evaluate the work for themselves.

You are still imposing an external standard on the child in doing this, which
is the point I was trying to make. You can list how the child performed
against certain criteria, and you can summarise it with a class mark, but
either way, you the teacher have set the standard, and rewarded the child by
telling him how he has met it. Your approval, your enthusiasm for his meeting
the standard, is the reward.

Now I don't have a problem with the imposition of standards. To me, that's
what civilising a child is about -- indoctrinating them (enculturating them,
if you prefer) in standards of behaviour, work and so on. However, I think
your categories of good and bad rewards are a bit too black and white.

Examples he

If I say *you are a good boy for cleaning your room,* the child may
know that he didn't do such a good job (maybe he pushed some of
the toys under the bed). If I give him a sticker, he knows that he
got the sticker under false pretenses and he will be tempted to
do the job quickly and only to what he knows you will see since
that gets him his sticker. If I say you put all the blocks on the
shelf and the books are all lined up straight, then I have given him
an objective standard and he can think *I did a good job cleaning
up, but I can do better next time, if I put away the stuff I hid under
the bed.*

Or alternatively, he knows he has your approval
under false pretences, and he will be tempted to
do the job quickly and only to what he knows you will see since
that gets him
the approval he wants anyway!
(not that I have any personal experience of this sort of thinking, no not me;
I'd never do that!)

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc