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Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women



 
 
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  #12  
Old December 19th 03, 04:52 AM
ME
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women

I agree with the fact that the pill should not be released OTC,
it is too dangerous for that kind of availability.
I do also agree, however, that the OTC release of it would
lessen the number of abortions, unplanned pregnancies, teen
pregnancy, and other matters of the sort.

As for your point on men not having the choices...if we lived
in a perfect world all woman would discuss the matter with
the man first, but we don't. BUT...
As for your 'plan B' for men....if we lived in a perfect world
all men would actually pay their child support and be there
for their children through all of their life, but they don't.

A girl I know gets pregnant a week before her 17th birthday.
Her boyfriend says the baby is not his and breaks it off with
her immediatley, but he does vow that if blood test reveal
he is the father he would support the child totally.
She goes through the pregnancy without him.
When the baby is 6 months old
Mom needs a car to get a job, since she has now graduated high
school. She works out a loan with her Aunt who tells her she
won't loan her the money unless she takes the baby's father
to court for child support. She does this. Dad requests blood tests.
Dad tells the domestic relations hearing officer of all Mom's partners
at the time of conception....although he was the only one she was
with. Blood tests come back that he is indeed the daddy of the baby.
$45 a week is ordered, yippy. Years go by, no support. After 2 1/2
years she starts getting child support when Dad feels like paying it.
He sees the child, then doesnt, then does, then doesnt....Baby is now 5
years old. Dad still doesn't pay child support like he is court
ordered and Mom can't get any help from the courts. (Seems the
enforcing officers just have too much to do with all the other
cases....ya know the ones who owe more back support) Baby
starts to see psychiatrists, therapists and any other 'ist' you can imagine.
Baby is so emotionally disturbed he sees them 2-4 times a month
depending on behavior and emotional outbursts. Dad doesn't bother
to call, send a card, a letter, or send child support. (By the way, Dad owns
his own business, and for the last 4 years sat in bars 6 days a week)
Baby spends a week in the inpatient child psychiatry unit at 6 years old
because he told Mom he wanted to kill himself. What came out
in therapy sessions? Dad did this, Dad did that, Dad didn't do this,
Dad didn't do that. To make this story as short as possible
because I could go on forever, your PLAN B is often ignored by
men also. Around here you have to give your arm and leg and possibly
both to get something done about violating court orders, getting child
support etc.
My point is this, although women may ignore the mans decisions in
using birth control, RU-486, abortion, adoption etc etc, men also
ignore the fatherly rights they have. (child support, even seeing the
child, providing clothes or moral support)
Meanwhile mom struggles to survive because she chose LIFE and
dad chose BAR, sports car etc etc etc.
Sure, make a law that the Dad has to sign permission for birth control,
RU-486, abortion, adoption, or life but then make a law that Dad also
has to live up to his responsibilities of being a Dad. This argument could
go on forever, and so could I. Women are in the wrong, men are in the
wrong.
Men shouldn't have to pay for the choices of women? Women pay
for the choices of men each and every single day.


"Kenneth S." wrote in message
...
In the interests of clarity, I should point out that this is not
RU-486. It is a product known as an "emergency contraceptive," and is
-- on my understanding -- a pepped-up dose of the ingredients of the
birth control pill. It is not an abortion-inducing product.

However, the basic point remains. This is yet another way of giving
reproductive choices to women. Meantime, no one considers ways of
giving post-conception reproductive choices to men. It would be very
simple to say that men should not have to pay for decisions made
unilaterally by women, and should be able to renounce their paternal
rights and responsibilities. However, this doesn't get done, very
largely because there is no special interest group representing
heterosexual men.

For men, "Plan B" consists of paying 18+ years of "child support" money
to women who decide that they don't want to make use of all the
post-conception choices U.S. law has given them.


Kathi Kelly wrote:

"Kenneth S." writes:

But there is a definite possibility that the FDA WILL accept this

proposal.
A minority of U.S. states (as well as several European countries)
ALREADY say that morning-after pills should be available to women on an
over-the-counter basis.


Kenneth, Bob and Mel all made good points about RU486.
However, another point remains. RU486 is not a safe procedure
for OTC release. There are and can be severe consequences.

IMO, the FDA should not even consider this proposal. An MD
should be supervising the use of RU486. To me, this is yet
another example of the vocal minority getting their way to the
detriment of society and health issues. It's just ridiculous.

The interested readers can peruse these pages.

http://pages.map.com/lroberge/ru486.htm

http://www.feminist.org/action/action120f.htm#_edn1

N.B., the FM states only the "positive" and makes no mention
of adverse side effects. The FM is working for their own
political agenda. Women be damned as far as they are concerned.



  #13  
Old December 19th 03, 04:52 AM
ME
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women

I agree with the fact that the pill should not be released OTC,
it is too dangerous for that kind of availability.
I do also agree, however, that the OTC release of it would
lessen the number of abortions, unplanned pregnancies, teen
pregnancy, and other matters of the sort.

As for your point on men not having the choices...if we lived
in a perfect world all woman would discuss the matter with
the man first, but we don't. BUT...
As for your 'plan B' for men....if we lived in a perfect world
all men would actually pay their child support and be there
for their children through all of their life, but they don't.

A girl I know gets pregnant a week before her 17th birthday.
Her boyfriend says the baby is not his and breaks it off with
her immediatley, but he does vow that if blood test reveal
he is the father he would support the child totally.
She goes through the pregnancy without him.
When the baby is 6 months old
Mom needs a car to get a job, since she has now graduated high
school. She works out a loan with her Aunt who tells her she
won't loan her the money unless she takes the baby's father
to court for child support. She does this. Dad requests blood tests.
Dad tells the domestic relations hearing officer of all Mom's partners
at the time of conception....although he was the only one she was
with. Blood tests come back that he is indeed the daddy of the baby.
$45 a week is ordered, yippy. Years go by, no support. After 2 1/2
years she starts getting child support when Dad feels like paying it.
He sees the child, then doesnt, then does, then doesnt....Baby is now 5
years old. Dad still doesn't pay child support like he is court
ordered and Mom can't get any help from the courts. (Seems the
enforcing officers just have too much to do with all the other
cases....ya know the ones who owe more back support) Baby
starts to see psychiatrists, therapists and any other 'ist' you can imagine.
Baby is so emotionally disturbed he sees them 2-4 times a month
depending on behavior and emotional outbursts. Dad doesn't bother
to call, send a card, a letter, or send child support. (By the way, Dad owns
his own business, and for the last 4 years sat in bars 6 days a week)
Baby spends a week in the inpatient child psychiatry unit at 6 years old
because he told Mom he wanted to kill himself. What came out
in therapy sessions? Dad did this, Dad did that, Dad didn't do this,
Dad didn't do that. To make this story as short as possible
because I could go on forever, your PLAN B is often ignored by
men also. Around here you have to give your arm and leg and possibly
both to get something done about violating court orders, getting child
support etc.
My point is this, although women may ignore the mans decisions in
using birth control, RU-486, abortion, adoption etc etc, men also
ignore the fatherly rights they have. (child support, even seeing the
child, providing clothes or moral support)
Meanwhile mom struggles to survive because she chose LIFE and
dad chose BAR, sports car etc etc etc.
Sure, make a law that the Dad has to sign permission for birth control,
RU-486, abortion, adoption, or life but then make a law that Dad also
has to live up to his responsibilities of being a Dad. This argument could
go on forever, and so could I. Women are in the wrong, men are in the
wrong.
Men shouldn't have to pay for the choices of women? Women pay
for the choices of men each and every single day.


"Kenneth S." wrote in message
...
In the interests of clarity, I should point out that this is not
RU-486. It is a product known as an "emergency contraceptive," and is
-- on my understanding -- a pepped-up dose of the ingredients of the
birth control pill. It is not an abortion-inducing product.

However, the basic point remains. This is yet another way of giving
reproductive choices to women. Meantime, no one considers ways of
giving post-conception reproductive choices to men. It would be very
simple to say that men should not have to pay for decisions made
unilaterally by women, and should be able to renounce their paternal
rights and responsibilities. However, this doesn't get done, very
largely because there is no special interest group representing
heterosexual men.

For men, "Plan B" consists of paying 18+ years of "child support" money
to women who decide that they don't want to make use of all the
post-conception choices U.S. law has given them.


Kathi Kelly wrote:

"Kenneth S." writes:

But there is a definite possibility that the FDA WILL accept this

proposal.
A minority of U.S. states (as well as several European countries)
ALREADY say that morning-after pills should be available to women on an
over-the-counter basis.


Kenneth, Bob and Mel all made good points about RU486.
However, another point remains. RU486 is not a safe procedure
for OTC release. There are and can be severe consequences.

IMO, the FDA should not even consider this proposal. An MD
should be supervising the use of RU486. To me, this is yet
another example of the vocal minority getting their way to the
detriment of society and health issues. It's just ridiculous.

The interested readers can peruse these pages.

http://pages.map.com/lroberge/ru486.htm

http://www.feminist.org/action/action120f.htm#_edn1

N.B., the FM states only the "positive" and makes no mention
of adverse side effects. The FM is working for their own
political agenda. Women be damned as far as they are concerned.



  #14  
Old December 19th 03, 05:23 AM
Bob Whiteside
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women


"TeacherMama" wrote in message
om...
A young woman in my town died a few months ago of complications from
RU486. And she was under a doctor's caer.


Plan B is not RU-486. See http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/11b6c2.htm

Plan B does not cause post-conception abortions. It is a post unprotected
sex contraceptive used to prevent pregnancies and works much like some BC
pills.


  #15  
Old December 19th 03, 05:23 AM
Bob Whiteside
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women


"TeacherMama" wrote in message
om...
A young woman in my town died a few months ago of complications from
RU486. And she was under a doctor's caer.


Plan B is not RU-486. See http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/11b6c2.htm

Plan B does not cause post-conception abortions. It is a post unprotected
sex contraceptive used to prevent pregnancies and works much like some BC
pills.


  #16  
Old December 19th 03, 09:33 AM
Werebat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women

I find your story incredibly hard to believe, but it may just be because
I was recently imprisoned after dutifully paying my CS for well over two
years, ever since it was ordered. This guy owned a BUSINESS? Seems like
he'd be painfully easy to track down if you ask me!

And the child wanted to KILL himself at 6 years old? This was not due to
absence of the father -- I'd look to see if Mommy Dearest was sexually
abusing him out of anger at the father and an inability to deal with the
real world.

- Ron ^*^



ME wrote:

I agree with the fact that the pill should not be released OTC,
it is too dangerous for that kind of availability.
I do also agree, however, that the OTC release of it would
lessen the number of abortions, unplanned pregnancies, teen
pregnancy, and other matters of the sort.

As for your point on men not having the choices...if we lived
in a perfect world all woman would discuss the matter with
the man first, but we don't. BUT...
As for your 'plan B' for men....if we lived in a perfect world
all men would actually pay their child support and be there
for their children through all of their life, but they don't.

A girl I know gets pregnant a week before her 17th birthday.
Her boyfriend says the baby is not his and breaks it off with
her immediatley, but he does vow that if blood test reveal
he is the father he would support the child totally.
She goes through the pregnancy without him.
When the baby is 6 months old
Mom needs a car to get a job, since she has now graduated high
school. She works out a loan with her Aunt who tells her she
won't loan her the money unless she takes the baby's father
to court for child support. She does this. Dad requests blood tests.
Dad tells the domestic relations hearing officer of all Mom's partners
at the time of conception....although he was the only one she was
with. Blood tests come back that he is indeed the daddy of the baby.
$45 a week is ordered, yippy. Years go by, no support. After 2 1/2
years she starts getting child support when Dad feels like paying it.
He sees the child, then doesnt, then does, then doesnt....Baby is now 5
years old. Dad still doesn't pay child support like he is court
ordered and Mom can't get any help from the courts. (Seems the
enforcing officers just have too much to do with all the other
cases....ya know the ones who owe more back support) Baby
starts to see psychiatrists, therapists and any other 'ist' you can imagine.
Baby is so emotionally disturbed he sees them 2-4 times a month
depending on behavior and emotional outbursts. Dad doesn't bother
to call, send a card, a letter, or send child support. (By the way, Dad owns
his own business, and for the last 4 years sat in bars 6 days a week)
Baby spends a week in the inpatient child psychiatry unit at 6 years old
because he told Mom he wanted to kill himself. What came out
in therapy sessions? Dad did this, Dad did that, Dad didn't do this,
Dad didn't do that. To make this story as short as possible
because I could go on forever, your PLAN B is often ignored by
men also. Around here you have to give your arm and leg and possibly
both to get something done about violating court orders, getting child
support etc.
My point is this, although women may ignore the mans decisions in
using birth control, RU-486, abortion, adoption etc etc, men also
ignore the fatherly rights they have. (child support, even seeing the
child, providing clothes or moral support)
Meanwhile mom struggles to survive because she chose LIFE and
dad chose BAR, sports car etc etc etc.
Sure, make a law that the Dad has to sign permission for birth control,
RU-486, abortion, adoption, or life but then make a law that Dad also
has to live up to his responsibilities of being a Dad. This argument could
go on forever, and so could I. Women are in the wrong, men are in the
wrong.
Men shouldn't have to pay for the choices of women? Women pay
for the choices of men each and every single day.

"Kenneth S." wrote in message
..
In the interests of clarity, I should point out that this is not
RU-486. It is a product known as an "emergency contraceptive," and is
-- on my understanding -- a pepped-up dose of the ingredients of the
birth control pill. It is not an abortion-inducing product.

However, the basic point remains. This is yet another way of giving
reproductive choices to women. Meantime, no one considers ways of
giving post-conception reproductive choices to men. It would be very
simple to say that men should not have to pay for decisions made
unilaterally by women, and should be able to renounce their paternal
rights and responsibilities. However, this doesn't get done, very
largely because there is no special interest group representing
heterosexual men.

For men, "Plan B" consists of paying 18+ years of "child support" money
to women who decide that they don't want to make use of all the
post-conception choices U.S. law has given them.


Kathi Kelly wrote:

"Kenneth S." writes:

But there is a definite possibility that the FDA WILL accept this

proposal.
A minority of U.S. states (as well as several European countries)
ALREADY say that morning-after pills should be available to women on an
over-the-counter basis.

Kenneth, Bob and Mel all made good points about RU486.
However, another point remains. RU486 is not a safe procedure
for OTC release. There are and can be severe consequences.

IMO, the FDA should not even consider this proposal. An MD
should be supervising the use of RU486. To me, this is yet
another example of the vocal minority getting their way to the
detriment of society and health issues. It's just ridiculous.

The interested readers can peruse these pages.

http://pages.map.com/lroberge/ru486.htm

http://www.feminist.org/action/action120f.htm#_edn1

N.B., the FM states only the "positive" and makes no mention
of adverse side effects. The FM is working for their own
political agenda. Women be damned as far as they are concerned.

  #17  
Old December 19th 03, 09:33 AM
Werebat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women

I find your story incredibly hard to believe, but it may just be because
I was recently imprisoned after dutifully paying my CS for well over two
years, ever since it was ordered. This guy owned a BUSINESS? Seems like
he'd be painfully easy to track down if you ask me!

And the child wanted to KILL himself at 6 years old? This was not due to
absence of the father -- I'd look to see if Mommy Dearest was sexually
abusing him out of anger at the father and an inability to deal with the
real world.

- Ron ^*^



ME wrote:

I agree with the fact that the pill should not be released OTC,
it is too dangerous for that kind of availability.
I do also agree, however, that the OTC release of it would
lessen the number of abortions, unplanned pregnancies, teen
pregnancy, and other matters of the sort.

As for your point on men not having the choices...if we lived
in a perfect world all woman would discuss the matter with
the man first, but we don't. BUT...
As for your 'plan B' for men....if we lived in a perfect world
all men would actually pay their child support and be there
for their children through all of their life, but they don't.

A girl I know gets pregnant a week before her 17th birthday.
Her boyfriend says the baby is not his and breaks it off with
her immediatley, but he does vow that if blood test reveal
he is the father he would support the child totally.
She goes through the pregnancy without him.
When the baby is 6 months old
Mom needs a car to get a job, since she has now graduated high
school. She works out a loan with her Aunt who tells her she
won't loan her the money unless she takes the baby's father
to court for child support. She does this. Dad requests blood tests.
Dad tells the domestic relations hearing officer of all Mom's partners
at the time of conception....although he was the only one she was
with. Blood tests come back that he is indeed the daddy of the baby.
$45 a week is ordered, yippy. Years go by, no support. After 2 1/2
years she starts getting child support when Dad feels like paying it.
He sees the child, then doesnt, then does, then doesnt....Baby is now 5
years old. Dad still doesn't pay child support like he is court
ordered and Mom can't get any help from the courts. (Seems the
enforcing officers just have too much to do with all the other
cases....ya know the ones who owe more back support) Baby
starts to see psychiatrists, therapists and any other 'ist' you can imagine.
Baby is so emotionally disturbed he sees them 2-4 times a month
depending on behavior and emotional outbursts. Dad doesn't bother
to call, send a card, a letter, or send child support. (By the way, Dad owns
his own business, and for the last 4 years sat in bars 6 days a week)
Baby spends a week in the inpatient child psychiatry unit at 6 years old
because he told Mom he wanted to kill himself. What came out
in therapy sessions? Dad did this, Dad did that, Dad didn't do this,
Dad didn't do that. To make this story as short as possible
because I could go on forever, your PLAN B is often ignored by
men also. Around here you have to give your arm and leg and possibly
both to get something done about violating court orders, getting child
support etc.
My point is this, although women may ignore the mans decisions in
using birth control, RU-486, abortion, adoption etc etc, men also
ignore the fatherly rights they have. (child support, even seeing the
child, providing clothes or moral support)
Meanwhile mom struggles to survive because she chose LIFE and
dad chose BAR, sports car etc etc etc.
Sure, make a law that the Dad has to sign permission for birth control,
RU-486, abortion, adoption, or life but then make a law that Dad also
has to live up to his responsibilities of being a Dad. This argument could
go on forever, and so could I. Women are in the wrong, men are in the
wrong.
Men shouldn't have to pay for the choices of women? Women pay
for the choices of men each and every single day.

"Kenneth S." wrote in message
..
In the interests of clarity, I should point out that this is not
RU-486. It is a product known as an "emergency contraceptive," and is
-- on my understanding -- a pepped-up dose of the ingredients of the
birth control pill. It is not an abortion-inducing product.

However, the basic point remains. This is yet another way of giving
reproductive choices to women. Meantime, no one considers ways of
giving post-conception reproductive choices to men. It would be very
simple to say that men should not have to pay for decisions made
unilaterally by women, and should be able to renounce their paternal
rights and responsibilities. However, this doesn't get done, very
largely because there is no special interest group representing
heterosexual men.

For men, "Plan B" consists of paying 18+ years of "child support" money
to women who decide that they don't want to make use of all the
post-conception choices U.S. law has given them.


Kathi Kelly wrote:

"Kenneth S." writes:

But there is a definite possibility that the FDA WILL accept this

proposal.
A minority of U.S. states (as well as several European countries)
ALREADY say that morning-after pills should be available to women on an
over-the-counter basis.

Kenneth, Bob and Mel all made good points about RU486.
However, another point remains. RU486 is not a safe procedure
for OTC release. There are and can be severe consequences.

IMO, the FDA should not even consider this proposal. An MD
should be supervising the use of RU486. To me, this is yet
another example of the vocal minority getting their way to the
detriment of society and health issues. It's just ridiculous.

The interested readers can peruse these pages.

http://pages.map.com/lroberge/ru486.htm

http://www.feminist.org/action/action120f.htm#_edn1

N.B., the FM states only the "positive" and makes no mention
of adverse side effects. The FM is working for their own
political agenda. Women be damned as far as they are concerned.

  #18  
Old December 19th 03, 10:32 AM
AZ Astrea
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women


"ME" wrote in message
...
I agree with the fact that the pill should not be released OTC,
it is too dangerous for that kind of availability.
I do also agree, however, that the OTC release of it would
lessen the number of abortions, unplanned pregnancies, teen
pregnancy, and other matters of the sort.

-----------------
This is NOT RU486! This is just a high dose birth control pill. It does
not induce an abortion.
----------------------------
As for your point on men not having the choices...if we lived
in a perfect world all woman would discuss the matter with
the man first, but we don't. BUT...
As for your 'plan B' for men....if we lived in a perfect world
all men would actually pay their child support and be there
for their children through all of their life, but they don't.

-----------
In a perfect world the courts would order 50 50 shared legal and physical
custody of the kids and no cs would be paid to mommy.
------------------
A girl I know gets pregnant a week before her 17th birthday.
Her boyfriend says the baby is not his and breaks it off with
her immediatley, but he does vow that if blood test reveal
he is the father he would support the child totally.
She goes through the pregnancy without him.
When the baby is 6 months old
Mom needs a car to get a job, since she has now graduated high
school. She works out a loan with her Aunt who tells her she
won't loan her the money unless she takes the baby's father
to court for child support. She does this. Dad requests blood tests.
Dad tells the domestic relations hearing officer of all Mom's partners
at the time of conception....although he was the only one she was
with. Blood tests come back that he is indeed the daddy of the baby.
$45 a week is ordered, yippy. Years go by, no support.

----------------------------
What, did she think that somehow a court order was going to turn this guy
into your version of a responsible parent? Get real, as soon as he
learned of her pregnancy he "says the baby is not his and breaks it off with
her immediatley". Buy a clue. He may have said he would "support the child
totally" maybe just to get her off his back but his actions speak, scream,
louder than words.
--------------------------
After 2 1/2
years she starts getting child support when Dad feels like paying it.
He sees the child, then doesnt, then does, then doesnt

----------------------
Maybe when Dad feels like paying it is really when dad is ABLE to pay it.
---------------------
.....Baby is now 5
years old. Dad still doesn't pay child support like he is court
ordered and Mom can't get any help from the courts. (Seems the
enforcing officers just have too much to do with all the other
cases....ya know the ones who owe more back support) Baby
starts to see psychiatrists, therapists and any other 'ist' you can

imagine.
Baby is so emotionally disturbed he sees them 2-4 times a month
depending on behavior and emotional outbursts.

-------------------
And this is the fault of a person who isn't even there? I think it's more
likely that it's the fault of the mother who IS there.
-------------------
Dad doesn't bother
to call, send a card, a letter, or send child support. (By the way, Dad

owns
his own business, and for the last 4 years sat in bars 6 days a week)

-----------------
Why, oh why do people think that owning your own business equates with
having lots of money?? It's generally closer to the truth that owning your
own business equates to having lots of money problems. And as far as his
sitting in bars maybe that was the only escape he could afford. Unless he
was sitting in them at some luxury resort.
--------------------
Baby spends a week in the inpatient child psychiatry unit at 6 years old
because he told Mom he wanted to kill himself. What came out
in therapy sessions? Dad did this, Dad did that, Dad didn't do this,
Dad didn't do that.

-------------------
Puh-leeeze! the only thing that dad didn't do was pay mommy the money she
felt she deserved. Daddy was never around right?! So how could he have
done this and not do that, blah blah. More likely that mommy TOLD the poor
kid a bunch of stuff to tweak his head.
--------------------
To make this story as short as possible
because I could go on forever, your PLAN B is often ignored by
men also. Around here you have to give your arm and leg and possibly
both to get something done about violating court orders, getting child
support etc.

----------------
And everywhere you could give away everything and still never get anything
done about violating visitation orders and false abuse allegations.
-------------------
My point is this, although women may ignore the mans decisions in
using birth control, RU-486, abortion, adoption etc etc, men also
ignore the fatherly rights they have. (child support, even seeing the
child, providing clothes or moral support)
Meanwhile mom struggles to survive because she chose LIFE and
dad chose BAR, sports car etc etc etc.

--------------
She chose, she chose! That's EXACTLY the point! SHE makes all of the
choices. SHE can choose LIFE or ABORTION or ADOPTION or ABANDONMENT. All
men can do is sit by and wait to see what she will choose.
-------------------
Sure, make a law that the Dad has to sign permission for birth control,
RU-486, abortion, adoption, or life

-------------------------
No. Make a law giving men the SAME rights that women currently have. The
right to decide to be a parent or not. While a man can't force a women to
get an abortion he should be able to force her to live with her own choices.
A man should be able to choose to 'sign off' from being a parent.
--------------------
but then make a law that Dad also
has to live up to his responsibilities of being a Dad.

---------------
What, the current set of laws requiring men to pay outrageous amounts of cs
to women who have made the choice to become a parent aren't enough for you?
Maybe they should have a national registry where all the men in the country
who are working are required to be listed so that the courts can easily
garnish their paychecks and take their tax refunds. And maybe they should
bring back the 'debtors prisons' and lock up men who are unable to pay their
cs. And then they could take away the drivers and professional licenses of
any man who gets behind on their cs. Oh wait, they already DO those things.
---------------------
This argument could
go on forever, and so could I. Women are in the wrong, men are in the
wrong.
Men shouldn't have to pay for the choices of women? Women pay
for the choices of men each and every single day.

-----------
No, men shouldn't have to pay for the choices of women. Men have no choices
when it comes to having children so women don't pay for men's choices. And
they don't pay for their own. They don't have to.

~AZ~


"Kenneth S." wrote in message
...
In the interests of clarity, I should point out that this is not
RU-486. It is a product known as an "emergency contraceptive," and is
-- on my understanding -- a pepped-up dose of the ingredients of the
birth control pill. It is not an abortion-inducing product.

However, the basic point remains. This is yet another way of giving
reproductive choices to women. Meantime, no one considers ways of
giving post-conception reproductive choices to men. It would be very
simple to say that men should not have to pay for decisions made
unilaterally by women, and should be able to renounce their paternal
rights and responsibilities. However, this doesn't get done, very
largely because there is no special interest group representing
heterosexual men.

For men, "Plan B" consists of paying 18+ years of "child support" money
to women who decide that they don't want to make use of all the
post-conception choices U.S. law has given them.


Kathi Kelly wrote:

"Kenneth S." writes:

But there is a definite possibility that the FDA WILL accept this

proposal.
A minority of U.S. states (as well as several European countries)
ALREADY say that morning-after pills should be available to women on

an
over-the-counter basis.

Kenneth, Bob and Mel all made good points about RU486.
However, another point remains. RU486 is not a safe procedure
for OTC release. There are and can be severe consequences.

IMO, the FDA should not even consider this proposal. An MD
should be supervising the use of RU486. To me, this is yet
another example of the vocal minority getting their way to the
detriment of society and health issues. It's just ridiculous.

The interested readers can peruse these pages.

http://pages.map.com/lroberge/ru486.htm

http://www.feminist.org/action/action120f.htm#_edn1

N.B., the FM states only the "positive" and makes no mention
of adverse side effects. The FM is working for their own
political agenda. Women be damned as far as they are concerned.





  #19  
Old December 19th 03, 10:32 AM
AZ Astrea
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women


"ME" wrote in message
...
I agree with the fact that the pill should not be released OTC,
it is too dangerous for that kind of availability.
I do also agree, however, that the OTC release of it would
lessen the number of abortions, unplanned pregnancies, teen
pregnancy, and other matters of the sort.

-----------------
This is NOT RU486! This is just a high dose birth control pill. It does
not induce an abortion.
----------------------------
As for your point on men not having the choices...if we lived
in a perfect world all woman would discuss the matter with
the man first, but we don't. BUT...
As for your 'plan B' for men....if we lived in a perfect world
all men would actually pay their child support and be there
for their children through all of their life, but they don't.

-----------
In a perfect world the courts would order 50 50 shared legal and physical
custody of the kids and no cs would be paid to mommy.
------------------
A girl I know gets pregnant a week before her 17th birthday.
Her boyfriend says the baby is not his and breaks it off with
her immediatley, but he does vow that if blood test reveal
he is the father he would support the child totally.
She goes through the pregnancy without him.
When the baby is 6 months old
Mom needs a car to get a job, since she has now graduated high
school. She works out a loan with her Aunt who tells her she
won't loan her the money unless she takes the baby's father
to court for child support. She does this. Dad requests blood tests.
Dad tells the domestic relations hearing officer of all Mom's partners
at the time of conception....although he was the only one she was
with. Blood tests come back that he is indeed the daddy of the baby.
$45 a week is ordered, yippy. Years go by, no support.

----------------------------
What, did she think that somehow a court order was going to turn this guy
into your version of a responsible parent? Get real, as soon as he
learned of her pregnancy he "says the baby is not his and breaks it off with
her immediatley". Buy a clue. He may have said he would "support the child
totally" maybe just to get her off his back but his actions speak, scream,
louder than words.
--------------------------
After 2 1/2
years she starts getting child support when Dad feels like paying it.
He sees the child, then doesnt, then does, then doesnt

----------------------
Maybe when Dad feels like paying it is really when dad is ABLE to pay it.
---------------------
.....Baby is now 5
years old. Dad still doesn't pay child support like he is court
ordered and Mom can't get any help from the courts. (Seems the
enforcing officers just have too much to do with all the other
cases....ya know the ones who owe more back support) Baby
starts to see psychiatrists, therapists and any other 'ist' you can

imagine.
Baby is so emotionally disturbed he sees them 2-4 times a month
depending on behavior and emotional outbursts.

-------------------
And this is the fault of a person who isn't even there? I think it's more
likely that it's the fault of the mother who IS there.
-------------------
Dad doesn't bother
to call, send a card, a letter, or send child support. (By the way, Dad

owns
his own business, and for the last 4 years sat in bars 6 days a week)

-----------------
Why, oh why do people think that owning your own business equates with
having lots of money?? It's generally closer to the truth that owning your
own business equates to having lots of money problems. And as far as his
sitting in bars maybe that was the only escape he could afford. Unless he
was sitting in them at some luxury resort.
--------------------
Baby spends a week in the inpatient child psychiatry unit at 6 years old
because he told Mom he wanted to kill himself. What came out
in therapy sessions? Dad did this, Dad did that, Dad didn't do this,
Dad didn't do that.

-------------------
Puh-leeeze! the only thing that dad didn't do was pay mommy the money she
felt she deserved. Daddy was never around right?! So how could he have
done this and not do that, blah blah. More likely that mommy TOLD the poor
kid a bunch of stuff to tweak his head.
--------------------
To make this story as short as possible
because I could go on forever, your PLAN B is often ignored by
men also. Around here you have to give your arm and leg and possibly
both to get something done about violating court orders, getting child
support etc.

----------------
And everywhere you could give away everything and still never get anything
done about violating visitation orders and false abuse allegations.
-------------------
My point is this, although women may ignore the mans decisions in
using birth control, RU-486, abortion, adoption etc etc, men also
ignore the fatherly rights they have. (child support, even seeing the
child, providing clothes or moral support)
Meanwhile mom struggles to survive because she chose LIFE and
dad chose BAR, sports car etc etc etc.

--------------
She chose, she chose! That's EXACTLY the point! SHE makes all of the
choices. SHE can choose LIFE or ABORTION or ADOPTION or ABANDONMENT. All
men can do is sit by and wait to see what she will choose.
-------------------
Sure, make a law that the Dad has to sign permission for birth control,
RU-486, abortion, adoption, or life

-------------------------
No. Make a law giving men the SAME rights that women currently have. The
right to decide to be a parent or not. While a man can't force a women to
get an abortion he should be able to force her to live with her own choices.
A man should be able to choose to 'sign off' from being a parent.
--------------------
but then make a law that Dad also
has to live up to his responsibilities of being a Dad.

---------------
What, the current set of laws requiring men to pay outrageous amounts of cs
to women who have made the choice to become a parent aren't enough for you?
Maybe they should have a national registry where all the men in the country
who are working are required to be listed so that the courts can easily
garnish their paychecks and take their tax refunds. And maybe they should
bring back the 'debtors prisons' and lock up men who are unable to pay their
cs. And then they could take away the drivers and professional licenses of
any man who gets behind on their cs. Oh wait, they already DO those things.
---------------------
This argument could
go on forever, and so could I. Women are in the wrong, men are in the
wrong.
Men shouldn't have to pay for the choices of women? Women pay
for the choices of men each and every single day.

-----------
No, men shouldn't have to pay for the choices of women. Men have no choices
when it comes to having children so women don't pay for men's choices. And
they don't pay for their own. They don't have to.

~AZ~


"Kenneth S." wrote in message
...
In the interests of clarity, I should point out that this is not
RU-486. It is a product known as an "emergency contraceptive," and is
-- on my understanding -- a pepped-up dose of the ingredients of the
birth control pill. It is not an abortion-inducing product.

However, the basic point remains. This is yet another way of giving
reproductive choices to women. Meantime, no one considers ways of
giving post-conception reproductive choices to men. It would be very
simple to say that men should not have to pay for decisions made
unilaterally by women, and should be able to renounce their paternal
rights and responsibilities. However, this doesn't get done, very
largely because there is no special interest group representing
heterosexual men.

For men, "Plan B" consists of paying 18+ years of "child support" money
to women who decide that they don't want to make use of all the
post-conception choices U.S. law has given them.


Kathi Kelly wrote:

"Kenneth S." writes:

But there is a definite possibility that the FDA WILL accept this

proposal.
A minority of U.S. states (as well as several European countries)
ALREADY say that morning-after pills should be available to women on

an
over-the-counter basis.

Kenneth, Bob and Mel all made good points about RU486.
However, another point remains. RU486 is not a safe procedure
for OTC release. There are and can be severe consequences.

IMO, the FDA should not even consider this proposal. An MD
should be supervising the use of RU486. To me, this is yet
another example of the vocal minority getting their way to the
detriment of society and health issues. It's just ridiculous.

The interested readers can peruse these pages.

http://pages.map.com/lroberge/ru486.htm

http://www.feminist.org/action/action120f.htm#_edn1

N.B., the FM states only the "positive" and makes no mention
of adverse side effects. The FM is working for their own
political agenda. Women be damned as far as they are concerned.





  #20  
Old December 19th 03, 11:03 AM
Mel Gamble
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women

Child Support is a man's "right"??????? Me has a few other goofy ideas
also.....

ME wrote:

I agree with the fact that the pill should not be released OTC,
it is too dangerous for that kind of availability.
I do also agree, however, that the OTC release of it would
lessen the number of abortions, unplanned pregnancies, teen
pregnancy, and other matters of the sort.

As for your point on men not having the choices...if we lived
in a perfect world all woman would discuss the matter with
the man first, but we don't. BUT...
As for your 'plan B' for men....if we lived in a perfect world
all men would actually pay their child support and be there
for their children through all of their life, but they don't.


For "all" to do so, you first have to give "all" the ability....

A girl I know gets pregnant a week before her 17th birthday.
Her boyfriend says the baby is not his and breaks it off with
her immediatley, but he does vow that if blood test reveal
he is the father he would support the child totally.
She goes through the pregnancy without him.
When the baby is 6 months old
Mom needs a car to get a job, since she has now graduated high
school. She works out a loan with her Aunt who tells her she
won't loan her the money unless she takes the baby's father
to court for child support. She does this. Dad requests blood tests.


Dad breaks it off "immediatley" and she waits until the baby is 6 months
old - sounds like dad has had at least a year to get on with his life
and assume he wasn't a part of this kid's life..., then BINGO "I want
money".

Dad tells the domestic relations hearing officer of all Mom's partners
at the time of conception....although he was the only one she was
with. Blood tests come back that he is indeed the daddy of the baby.
$45 a week is ordered, yippy. Years go by, no support. After 2 1/2
years she starts getting child support when Dad feels like paying it.
He sees the child, then doesnt, then does, then doesnt....


And ME, of course, wants us to assume that the "doesnt" is by dad's
choice - maybe, maybe not...but there's good evidence for "not" further
down...

Baby is now 5
years old. Dad still doesn't pay child support like he is court
ordered and Mom can't get any help from the courts. (Seems the
enforcing officers just have too much to do with all the other
cases....ya know the ones who owe more back support) Baby
starts to see psychiatrists, therapists and any other 'ist' you can imagine.
Baby is so emotionally disturbed he sees them 2-4 times a month
depending on behavior and emotional outbursts.


*MILLIONS* of children have been raised without fathers without ending
up emotionally disturbed before they're in school. Sensible people will
tell you that when a child is emotionally damaged to that extent, don't
look at the adults who aren't there - look at those with regular
contact.

Dad doesn't bother
to call, send a card, a letter, or send child support.


Sounds like mom has been working to totally alienate the dad ... same as
she's been doing to the child. By the way, when did mom start cashing
in on the $400 monthly fee for selling her child's soul to the "ist"s?

(By the way, Dad owns
his own business, and for the last 4 years sat in bars 6 days a week)


Looks like she's done a number on his life as well as the child's...

Baby spends a week in the inpatient child psychiatry unit at 6 years old
because he told Mom he wanted to kill himself. What came out
in therapy sessions? Dad did this, Dad did that, Dad didn't do this,
Dad didn't do that.


Now how would a 6-year-old know what Dad *DIDN'T* do unless somebody
else was pounding it into his head???

To make this story as short as possible


To make this story as short as possible, just take this poor kid away
from that abusive bitch and place him with a good parent.

because I could go on forever, your PLAN B is often ignored by
men also. Around here you have to give your arm and leg and possibly
both to get something done about violating court orders, getting child
support etc.
My point is this, although women may ignore the mans decisions in
using birth control, RU-486, abortion, adoption etc etc, men also
ignore the fatherly rights they have. (child support, even seeing the
child, providing clothes or moral support)


ME needs to learn the difference between a "right" and imposing "child
support" on a father.

Meanwhile mom struggles to survive because she chose LIFE and


Obviously, she chose *H*E*R* "LIFE" over everyone else's...

Mel Gamble

dad chose BAR, sports car etc etc etc.
Sure, make a law that the Dad has to sign permission for birth control,
RU-486, abortion, adoption, or life but then make a law that Dad also
has to live up to his responsibilities of being a Dad. This argument could
go on forever, and so could I. Women are in the wrong, men are in the
wrong.
Men shouldn't have to pay for the choices of women? Women pay
for the choices of men each and every single day.

"Kenneth S." wrote in message
...
In the interests of clarity, I should point out that this is not
RU-486. It is a product known as an "emergency contraceptive," and is
-- on my understanding -- a pepped-up dose of the ingredients of the
birth control pill. It is not an abortion-inducing product.

However, the basic point remains. This is yet another way of giving
reproductive choices to women. Meantime, no one considers ways of
giving post-conception reproductive choices to men. It would be very
simple to say that men should not have to pay for decisions made
unilaterally by women, and should be able to renounce their paternal
rights and responsibilities. However, this doesn't get done, very
largely because there is no special interest group representing
heterosexual men.

For men, "Plan B" consists of paying 18+ years of "child support" money
to women who decide that they don't want to make use of all the
post-conception choices U.S. law has given them.


Kathi Kelly wrote:

"Kenneth S." writes:

But there is a definite possibility that the FDA WILL accept this

proposal.
A minority of U.S. states (as well as several European countries)
ALREADY say that morning-after pills should be available to women on an
over-the-counter basis.

Kenneth, Bob and Mel all made good points about RU486.
However, another point remains. RU486 is not a safe procedure
for OTC release. There are and can be severe consequences.

IMO, the FDA should not even consider this proposal. An MD
should be supervising the use of RU486. To me, this is yet
another example of the vocal minority getting their way to the
detriment of society and health issues. It's just ridiculous.

The interested readers can peruse these pages.

http://pages.map.com/lroberge/ru486.htm

http://www.feminist.org/action/action120f.htm#_edn1

N.B., the FM states only the "positive" and makes no mention
of adverse side effects. The FM is working for their own
political agenda. Women be damned as far as they are concerned.

 




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