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Who has the ultimate right to choose?



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 9th 07, 04:52 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
teachrmama
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Posts: 1,905
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"elizabeth" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Apr 8, 7:21 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"elizabeth" wrote
.................
Letting your child live in poverty means you are the sort of heartless
asshole who should be castrated, because we don't need
more irresponsible assholes breeding children that the rest of society
must support.


==
Indeed. Sterilize all welfare women of childbearing age.


As long as you sterilize all the men impregnating them, fine.
And since vasectomies are a couple of orders of magnitude CHEAPER than
tubals, and since vasectomies are at least an order of magnitude MORE
EFFECTIVE THAN TUBALS, it's far more cost effective to snip the men,
especially when you factor in the cost of medical complications of
tubals . . . tubals do kill women, but no man has ever died from a
vasectomy.


Oh for goodness sake, grow up!! If a woman is banging out a ******* a year,
by a different man each time, she should have her plumbing removed so she
can't bring any more children into the world that she has no intention of
ever supporting.

If a man is reepopulating a small city with his bedroom antice, he should be
similarly rendered sterile.

Everyone needs to take responsibility for their own sexual behavior. And
setting up a system where woman bears child, and dad pays for 18-22 years is
NOT effective. 50/50 joint custody with both parents being required to work
to support the child their 50% of the time would be far more realistic.



  #12  
Old April 9th 07, 04:56 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
teachrmama
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Posts: 1,905
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"elizabeth" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 8, 7:37 pm, "Gini" wrote:

And you know this how? Come to think of it, I don't know any women who
have
died from a tubal.
Heh, perhaps I'm running with a different crowd.


OK, we're using Gina Knows Proof. The only cases that matter are the
women Gina Knows.

I know of women who have died and have had very, very serious
complications from pills and IUDs.


Um--after they died from their tubals, they STILL had very, very serious
complications from pills and IUDs?? That really IS bad!!


  #13  
Old April 9th 07, 04:58 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
teachrmama
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Posts: 1,905
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"Gini" wrote in message news:[email protected]

"elizabeth" wrote
On Apr 8, 7:37 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"elizabeth" wrote On Apr 8, 7:21 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"elizabeth" wrote
.................
Letting your child live in poverty means you are the sort of
heartless
asshole who should be castrated, because we don't need
more irresponsible assholes breeding children that the rest of
society
must support.

==
Indeed. Sterilize all welfare women of childbearing age.

As long as you sterilize all the men impregnating them, fine.

==
G So, how is it that a man would impregnate a sterilized woman?
==
.......................... no man has ever died from a
vasectomy.

==
And you know this how? Come to think of it, I don't know any women who
have
died from a tubal.
Heh, perhaps I'm running with a different crowd.


And more research . . ..
Intraoperative complications such as:

Unintended, unplanned major surgery or laparotomy due to a problem
during the tubal ligation procedure, This complication occurs at a
rate of approximately 0.9 per 100 tubal ligation procedures.

Blood transfusions

A life-threatening event

Death

Postoperative complications include those that occur intraoperatively,
as well as:

Febrile morbidity

Rehospitalization

Death caused by a complication that occurs up to 42 days of your tubal
ligation surgery.

==
You weren't paying attention, hon. Complications (which are extremely
rare)
do not equal *death from a tubal.* Nice try, though. You are quite
entertaining
tonight. Now, about the man who impregnates a sterile woman....?


With all the complications that can happen to women who don't want children,
maybe they could just stop offering it to every man who asks. Surely
chastity is still a choice!


  #14  
Old April 9th 07, 05:12 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Gini
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Posts: 936
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"teachrmama" wrote

"Gini" wrote

......................................
==
You weren't paying attention, hon. Complications (which are extremely
rare)
do not equal *death from a tubal.* Nice try, though. You are quite
entertaining
tonight. Now, about the man who impregnates a sterile woman....?


With all the complications that can happen to women who don't want
children, maybe they could just stop offering it to every man who asks.
Surely chastity is still a choice!

==
What?? Expect women to accept responsibility for their own bodies? What's
come over you? All the women elizabeth knows are far too weak for this and
need the government to protect them. It really is sad.


  #15  
Old April 9th 07, 06:37 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
teachrmama
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Posts: 1,905
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"Gini" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"teachrmama" wrote

"Gini" wrote

.....................................
==
You weren't paying attention, hon. Complications (which are extremely
rare)
do not equal *death from a tubal.* Nice try, though. You are quite
entertaining
tonight. Now, about the man who impregnates a sterile woman....?


With all the complications that can happen to women who don't want
children, maybe they could just stop offering it to every man who asks.
Surely chastity is still a choice!

==
What?? Expect women to accept responsibility for their own bodies? What's
come over you? All the women elizabeth knows are far too weak for this and
need the government to protect them. It really is sad.


Yes, it really is sad. Hmmmmm....I wonder how many men elizabeth has taking
care of her and her children.




  #16  
Old April 9th 07, 07:05 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Ray Fischer
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Posts: 152
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?

elizabeth wrote:
On Apr 4, 10:34 am, "Chris" wrote:
"CafeWriter" wrote in message

snip

I've had enough. For all the men who got women pregnant and decided to
become deadbeat fathers,


Men don't decide to become fathers; women make that decision; unless, of
course, your definition of fatherhood begins at conception.


Men are free to get vasectomies before sex, they are free to use
condoms. Women can't get vasectomies nor decide to use condoms,
that's the man's choice. So you don't have as many choices as women,
too bad.


Women have many more choices of reversable contraception.

If women had a method as cheap, safe, and effective as
vasectomy, that could be as easily reversed,


Norplant. Depo provera.

And vasectomies are NOT easily reversed.

But because most men feel entitled to sexual access,


Like women feel entitled to have men pay for their choices?

Now geez that's probably part of the reason why some women chose

abortions;
they already knew that the men that got them pregnant wouldn't help them
out.


Did you purposely decide to not answer my above question, or did you simply
overlook it?


So what's your beef, mad about paying child support?
Well, why not get custody and make her pay you?


Doesn't happen.

--
Ray Fischer


  #17  
Old April 9th 07, 08:17 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Ray Fischer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?

elizabeth wrote:
"Gini" wrote:
"elizabeth" wrote
.................
Letting your child live in poverty means you are the sort of heartless asshole who should be castrated,

because we don't need
more irresponsible assholes breeding children that the rest of society
must support.


==
Indeed. Sterilize all welfare women of childbearing age.


As long as you sterilize all the men impregnating them, fine.
And since vasectomies are a couple of orders of magnitude CHEAPER than
tubals, and since vasectomies are at least an order of magnitude MORE
EFFECTIVE THAN TUBALS, it's far more cost effective to snip the men,
especially when you factor in the cost of medical complications of
tubals . . . tubals do kill women, but no man has ever died from a
vasectomy.


That's not true. Men have died from vasectomy, usually as a result of
an infection.

--
Ray Fischer


  #18  
Old April 9th 07, 08:44 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
teachrmama
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,905
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"Ray Fischer" wrote in message
...
elizabeth wrote:
"Gini" wrote:
"elizabeth" wrote
.................
Letting your child live in poverty means you are the sort of heartless
asshole who should be castrated,

because we don't need
more irresponsible assholes breeding children that the rest of society
must support.

==
Indeed. Sterilize all welfare women of childbearing age.


As long as you sterilize all the men impregnating them, fine.
And since vasectomies are a couple of orders of magnitude CHEAPER than
tubals, and since vasectomies are at least an order of magnitude MORE
EFFECTIVE THAN TUBALS, it's far more cost effective to snip the men,
especially when you factor in the cost of medical complications of
tubals . . . tubals do kill women, but no man has ever died from a
vasectomy.


That's not true. Men have died from vasectomy, usually as a result of
an infection.


Now, now, Ray. elizabeth is painting the typical "Woman=Victim" picture.
You don't want to go and ruin her artwork, do you? She's been
fingerpainting all day!!


  #19  
Old April 9th 07, 12:09 PM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Kenneth S.
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Posts: 76
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?

My experience has been that people who use the kind of offensive
language that Elizabeth uses below are not amenable to logic. However, for
the benefit of others I will point out that the current situation in the
U.S. is grotesquely skewed in favor of women.

Women have a range of post-conception reproductive choices, and
significant efforts are being made to enlarge those choices. A woman is able
to choose unilaterally to have an abortion, to have the child but to take
advantage of newborn dropoff laws, to put the child up for adoption, or to
keep the child -- and bill the father, via "child support," for the choice
she has made.

Meantime, no effort is spared to deny men the choice that Nature has
given them -- that of walking away from unwanted pregnancies.

Furthermore, the suggestion that men can fix the problem by getting
custody is of course disingenuous. As a practical matter, custody decisions
are made, not by laws or by judges, but by mothers. If they want custody,
they get it.

There are many people, including me, who think that, as a moral matter,
women should never have been given some of their present post-conception
choices, notably infanticide through the repellent partial birth abortion
procedure. But so long as women made unilateral choices, they should bear
the sole responsibility for their own choices.





"elizabeth" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 4, 10:34 am, "Chris" wrote:
"CafeWriter" wrote in message

snip

I've had enough. For all the men who got women pregnant and decided to
become deadbeat fathers,


Men don't decide to become fathers; women make that decision; unless, of
course, your definition of fatherhood begins at conception.


Men are free to get vasectomies before sex, they are free to use
condoms. Women can't get vasectomies nor decide to use condoms,
that's the man's choice. So you don't have as many choices as women,
too bad. If women had a method as cheap, safe, and effective as
vasectomy, that could be as easily reversed, if they could store ova
just by having an orgasm the way men can store sperm . .. well, there
wouldn't be many abortions at all.

But because most men feel entitled to sexual access, and feel that
it's not their problem if the woman gets pregnant, abortion will be
needed, far more often than it should.

you are not worth it.


Shame on you. That's why if a father does not pay child support or
help

the
mother out, then he is not truly a father that his child would know but
rather a man who doesn't love his child.


Not paying cash to a child's mother says NOTHING about not loving said
child.


Bull****. Letting your child live in poverty means you are the sort
of heartless asshole who should be castrated, because we don't need
more irresponsible assholes breeding children that the rest of society
must support.

In fact, that's very sociopathic, not caring about your own
offspring. Maybe you realize your mother made the wrong choice on
abortion, and thus, don't want your offspring to have a chance?

Now geez that's probably part of the reason why some women chose

abortions;
they already knew that the men that got them pregnant wouldn't help
them
out.


Did you purposely decide to not answer my above question, or did you
simply
overlook it?


So what's your beef, mad about paying child support?
Well, why not get custody and make her pay you?



  #20  
Old April 9th 07, 02:13 PM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Beverly
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Posts: 55
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?

On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 11:09:31 GMT, "Kenneth S."
wrote:

But so long as women made unilateral choices, they should bear
the sole responsibility for their own choices.


I agree with the statement as written; however, just because a woman
CAN make a choice to abort while a man cannot does not necessarily
make it a unilateral choice. Children born within a marriage are
often a choice made by both, although not always. Conversely,
children born out of wedlock may be a choice made by both parents, but
I would strongly advise any woman in this situation to make her own
decisions based upon her own circumstances.

My eldest's father wanted me to abort. We were not married. I made
my decision to keep my baby and took sole responsibility for my
decision. I never asked his father for anything.

My younger two children were a product of my marriage to my ex
husband. We made the decision together to have children before they
were conceived. While I may have made the decision to divorce, it was
based upon HIS decision to molest. If I really ever had a choice, I'd
have chosen that he never do what he did. I don't feel bad asking
that he bear some responsibility toward our children.

That said, I STILL see providing for my children as something *I* must
do. Women who DEPEND upon child support are only setting themselves
and their children up. Both households should have a responsible
parent, but the only parent we can MAKE responsible is ourselves.
Beverly
 




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