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Who has the ultimate right to choose?



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 9th 07, 02:26 PM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Kenneth S.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?

My comments were implicitly directed at illegitimate births, but I
should have spelled this out.

You say that "just because a woman CAN make a choice to abort while a
man cannot does not necessarily make it a unilateral choice." Would you
apply the same logic to men? Just because a man CAN make a choice to walk
away from an unwanted pregnancy, while a woman cannot, does not necessarily
make it a unilateral choice?


"Beverly" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 11:09:31 GMT, "Kenneth S."
wrote:

But so long as women made unilateral choices, they should bear
the sole responsibility for their own choices.


I agree with the statement as written; however, just because a woman
CAN make a choice to abort while a man cannot does not necessarily
make it a unilateral choice. Children born within a marriage are
often a choice made by both, although not always. Conversely,
children born out of wedlock may be a choice made by both parents, but
I would strongly advise any woman in this situation to make her own
decisions based upon her own circumstances.

My eldest's father wanted me to abort. We were not married. I made
my decision to keep my baby and took sole responsibility for my
decision. I never asked his father for anything.

My younger two children were a product of my marriage to my ex
husband. We made the decision together to have children before they
were conceived. While I may have made the decision to divorce, it was
based upon HIS decision to molest. If I really ever had a choice, I'd
have chosen that he never do what he did. I don't feel bad asking
that he bear some responsibility toward our children.

That said, I STILL see providing for my children as something *I* must
do. Women who DEPEND upon child support are only setting themselves
and their children up. Both households should have a responsible
parent, but the only parent we can MAKE responsible is ourselves.
Beverly



  #22  
Old April 9th 07, 04:47 PM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"Kenneth S." wrote in message
news:[email protected]
My experience has been that people who use the kind of offensive
language that Elizabeth uses below are not amenable to logic. However,

for
the benefit of others I will point out that the current situation in the
U.S. is grotesquely skewed in favor of women.

Women have a range of post-conception reproductive choices, and
significant efforts are being made to enlarge those choices. A woman is

able
to choose unilaterally to have an abortion, to have the child but to take
advantage of newborn dropoff laws, to put the child up for adoption, or to
keep the child -- and bill the father, via "child support," for the choice
she has made.

Meantime, no effort is spared to deny men the choice that Nature has
given them -- that of walking away from unwanted pregnancies.

Furthermore, the suggestion that men can fix the problem by getting
custody is of course disingenuous. As a practical matter, custody

decisions
are made, not by laws or by judges, but by mothers. If they want custody,
they get it.

There are many people, including me, who think that, as a moral

matter,
women should never have been given some of their present post-conception
choices, notably infanticide through the repellent partial birth abortion
procedure. But so long as women made unilateral choices, they should bear
the sole responsibility for their own choices.


Gee, what a novel concept. Ya think?






"elizabeth" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 4, 10:34 am, "Chris" wrote:
"CafeWriter" wrote in message

snip

I've had enough. For all the men who got women pregnant and decided

to
become deadbeat fathers,

Men don't decide to become fathers; women make that decision; unless,

of
course, your definition of fatherhood begins at conception.


Men are free to get vasectomies before sex, they are free to use
condoms. Women can't get vasectomies nor decide to use condoms,
that's the man's choice. So you don't have as many choices as women,
too bad. If women had a method as cheap, safe, and effective as
vasectomy, that could be as easily reversed, if they could store ova
just by having an orgasm the way men can store sperm . .. well, there
wouldn't be many abortions at all.

But because most men feel entitled to sexual access, and feel that
it's not their problem if the woman gets pregnant, abortion will be
needed, far more often than it should.

you are not worth it.

Shame on you. That's why if a father does not pay child support or
help
the
mother out, then he is not truly a father that his child would know

but
rather a man who doesn't love his child.

Not paying cash to a child's mother says NOTHING about not loving said
child.


Bull****. Letting your child live in poverty means you are the sort
of heartless asshole who should be castrated, because we don't need
more irresponsible assholes breeding children that the rest of society
must support.

In fact, that's very sociopathic, not caring about your own
offspring. Maybe you realize your mother made the wrong choice on
abortion, and thus, don't want your offspring to have a chance?

Now geez that's probably part of the reason why some women chose
abortions;
they already knew that the men that got them pregnant wouldn't help
them
out.

Did you purposely decide to not answer my above question, or did you
simply
overlook it?


So what's your beef, mad about paying child support?
Well, why not get custody and make her pay you?





  #23  
Old April 9th 07, 07:37 PM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Robert[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 121
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?

On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:56:02 -0700, "teachrmama"
wrote:


"elizabeth" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Apr 8, 7:37 pm, "Gini" wrote:

And you know this how? Come to think of it, I don't know any women who
have
died from a tubal.
Heh, perhaps I'm running with a different crowd.


OK, we're using Gina Knows Proof. The only cases that matter are the
women Gina Knows.

I know of women who have died and have had very, very serious
complications from pills and IUDs.


Um--after they died from their tubals, they STILL had very, very serious
complications from pills and IUDs?? That really IS bad!!

Are you really stupid? Or do you think everyone else is?
Women have died from complications from a tubal.
Women have had complications from pills, and IUDS, decided on a tubal
and died.
Liz is correct, any man that doesn't want to father a child and be a
real daddy, should get his cords clipped. Far safer than a tubal for a
woman. Any man that doesn't want to get a STD, needs to use a condom,
unless he has absolute faith in his partner.
The father of any child should support that child, even if he has to
be put in a slave labor condition. Men can prevent pregnancy in the
woman he is taking pleasure from.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #24  
Old April 9th 07, 07:40 PM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Robert[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 121
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?

On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:58:05 -0700, "teachrmama"
wrote:


"Gini" wrote in message news:[email protected]

"elizabeth" wrote
On Apr 8, 7:37 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"elizabeth" wrote On Apr 8, 7:21 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"elizabeth" wrote
.................
Letting your child live in poverty means you are the sort of
heartless
asshole who should be castrated, because we don't need
more irresponsible assholes breeding children that the rest of
society
must support.

==
Indeed. Sterilize all welfare women of childbearing age.

As long as you sterilize all the men impregnating them, fine.

==
G So, how is it that a man would impregnate a sterilized woman?
==
.......................... no man has ever died from a
vasectomy.

==
And you know this how? Come to think of it, I don't know any women who
have
died from a tubal.
Heh, perhaps I'm running with a different crowd.

And more research . . ..
Intraoperative complications such as:

Unintended, unplanned major surgery or laparotomy due to a problem
during the tubal ligation procedure, This complication occurs at a
rate of approximately 0.9 per 100 tubal ligation procedures.

Blood transfusions

A life-threatening event

Death

Postoperative complications include those that occur intraoperatively,
as well as:

Febrile morbidity

Rehospitalization

Death caused by a complication that occurs up to 42 days of your tubal
ligation surgery.

==
You weren't paying attention, hon. Complications (which are extremely
rare)
do not equal *death from a tubal.* Nice try, though. You are quite
entertaining
tonight. Now, about the man who impregnates a sterile woman....?


With all the complications that can happen to women who don't want children,
maybe they could just stop offering it to every man who asks. Surely
chastity is still a choice!



Chastity is indeed a choice. But not widely popular, taking your self
out for movie, dinner and dancing. Course there are always other
women.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #25  
Old April 9th 07, 11:35 PM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"elizabeth" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 4, 10:34 am, "Chris" wrote:
"CafeWriter" wrote in message

snip

I've had enough. For all the men who got women pregnant and decided

to
become deadbeat fathers,


Men don't decide to become fathers; women make that decision; unless, of
course, your definition of fatherhood begins at conception.


Men are free to get vasectomies before sex, they are free to use
condoms. Women can't get vasectomies nor decide to use condoms,
that's the man's choice. So you don't have as many choices as women,
too bad. If women had a method as cheap, safe, and effective as
vasectomy, that could be as easily reversed, if they could store ova
just by having an orgasm the way men can store sperm . .. well, there
wouldn't be many abortions at all.

But because most men feel entitled to sexual access, and feel that
it's not their problem if the woman gets pregnant, abortion will be
needed, far more often than it should.


Whether the above is all true, all false, or somewhere in between, STILL the
fact remains that WOMEN, not men make such choice. (see below)


you are not worth it.


Shame on you. That's why if a father does not pay child support or

help
the
mother out, then he is not truly a father that his child would know

but
rather a man who doesn't love his child.


Not paying cash to a child's mother says NOTHING about not loving said
child.


Bull****. Letting your child live in poverty means you are the sort
of heartless asshole who should be castrated, because we don't need
more irresponsible assholes breeding children that the rest of society
must support.


Tell that to all the women who are doing so.


In fact, that's very sociopathic, not caring about your own
offspring. Maybe you realize your mother made the wrong choice on
abortion,


Thank you for confirming my claim that it is indeed the WOMAN, not the man,
who makes such choice.

and thus, don't want your offspring to have a chance?

Now geez that's probably part of the reason why some women chose

abortions;
they already knew that the men that got them pregnant wouldn't help

them
out.


Did you purposely decide to not answer my above question, or did you

simply
overlook it?


So what's your beef, mad about paying child support?


Do you always answer a question with a question?

Well, why not get custody and make her pay you?



  #26  
Old April 9th 07, 11:48 PM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"Beverly" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 11:09:31 GMT, "Kenneth S."
wrote:

But so long as women made unilateral choices, they should bear
the sole responsibility for their own choices.


I agree with the statement as written; however, just because a woman
CAN make a choice to abort while a man cannot does not necessarily
make it a unilateral choice. Children born within a marriage are
often a choice made by both,


I sense a SLIGHT contradiction in the above statements.

although not always. Conversely,
children born out of wedlock may be a choice made by both parents,


Contradiction repeated.

but
I would strongly advise any woman in this situation to make her own
decisions based upon her own circumstances.


They ALWAYS make their own decision.



My eldest's father wanted me to abort. We were not married. I made
my decision to keep my baby and took sole responsibility for my
decision. I never asked his father for anything.

My younger two children were a product of my marriage to my ex
husband. We made the decision together to have children before they
were conceived.


There's that pesky contradiction again, unless such "children" exist at the
time of conception.

While I may have made the decision to divorce, it was
based upon HIS decision to molest. If I really ever had a choice, I'd
have chosen that he never do what he did. I don't feel bad asking
that he bear some responsibility toward our children.


Translation: I don't feel bad forcing him to hand me free cash.


That said, I STILL see providing for my children as something *I* must
do. Women who DEPEND upon child support are only setting themselves
and their children up. Both households should have a responsible
parent, but the only parent we can MAKE responsible is ourselves.
Beverly



  #27  
Old April 10th 07, 12:41 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Beverly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 55
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?

On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 13:26:30 GMT, "Kenneth S."
wrote:

My comments were implicitly directed at illegitimate births, but I
should have spelled this out.

You say that "just because a woman CAN make a choice to abort while a
man cannot does not necessarily make it a unilateral choice." Would you
apply the same logic to men? Just because a man CAN make a choice to walk
away from an unwanted pregnancy, while a woman cannot, does not necessarily
make it a unilateral choice?


But a woman CAN walk away from an unwanted pregnancy and,
unfortunately, men most often CAN'T. I don't agree with this, by the
way. I think men should be able to walk away UNLESS they were part of
the decision that affirmed having and keeping the baby.



"Beverly" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 11:09:31 GMT, "Kenneth S."
wrote:

But so long as women made unilateral choices, they should bear
the sole responsibility for their own choices.


I agree with the statement as written; however, just because a woman
CAN make a choice to abort while a man cannot does not necessarily
make it a unilateral choice. Children born within a marriage are
often a choice made by both, although not always. Conversely,
children born out of wedlock may be a choice made by both parents, but
I would strongly advise any woman in this situation to make her own
decisions based upon her own circumstances.

My eldest's father wanted me to abort. We were not married. I made
my decision to keep my baby and took sole responsibility for my
decision. I never asked his father for anything.

My younger two children were a product of my marriage to my ex
husband. We made the decision together to have children before they
were conceived. While I may have made the decision to divorce, it was
based upon HIS decision to molest. If I really ever had a choice, I'd
have chosen that he never do what he did. I don't feel bad asking
that he bear some responsibility toward our children.

That said, I STILL see providing for my children as something *I* must
do. Women who DEPEND upon child support are only setting themselves
and their children up. Both households should have a responsible
parent, but the only parent we can MAKE responsible is ourselves.
Beverly



Beverly
  #28  
Old April 10th 07, 12:42 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
teachrmama
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,905
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"Robert" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:56:02 -0700, "teachrmama"
wrote:


"elizabeth" wrote in message
groups.com...
On Apr 8, 7:37 pm, "Gini" wrote:

And you know this how? Come to think of it, I don't know any women who
have
died from a tubal.
Heh, perhaps I'm running with a different crowd.

OK, we're using Gina Knows Proof. The only cases that matter are the
women Gina Knows.

I know of women who have died and have had very, very serious
complications from pills and IUDs.


Um--after they died from their tubals, they STILL had very, very serious
complications from pills and IUDs?? That really IS bad!!

Are you really stupid? Or do you think everyone else is?
Women have died from complications from a tubal.
Women have had complications from pills, and IUDS, decided on a tubal
and died.
Liz is correct, any man that doesn't want to father a child and be a
real daddy, should get his cords clipped. Far safer than a tubal for a
woman. Any man that doesn't want to get a STD, needs to use a condom,
unless he has absolute faith in his partner.
The father of any child should support that child, even if he has to
be put in a slave labor condition. Men can prevent pregnancy in the
woman he is taking pleasure from.



Ohm grow up! What a fool. Any woman who cannot support a child should keep
her panties on and herlegs together.


  #29  
Old April 10th 07, 12:45 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
teachrmama
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,905
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?


"Robert" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 20:58:05 -0700, "teachrmama"
wrote:


"Gini" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"elizabeth" wrote
On Apr 8, 7:37 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"elizabeth" wrote On Apr 8, 7:21 pm, "Gini" wrote:
"elizabeth" wrote
.................
Letting your child live in poverty means you are the sort of
heartless
asshole who should be castrated, because we don't need
more irresponsible assholes breeding children that the rest of
society
must support.

==
Indeed. Sterilize all welfare women of childbearing age.

As long as you sterilize all the men impregnating them, fine.

==
G So, how is it that a man would impregnate a sterilized woman?
==
.......................... no man has ever died from a
vasectomy.

==
And you know this how? Come to think of it, I don't know any women who
have
died from a tubal.
Heh, perhaps I'm running with a different crowd.

And more research . . ..
Intraoperative complications such as:

Unintended, unplanned major surgery or laparotomy due to a problem
during the tubal ligation procedure, This complication occurs at a
rate of approximately 0.9 per 100 tubal ligation procedures.

Blood transfusions

A life-threatening event

Death

Postoperative complications include those that occur intraoperatively,
as well as:

Febrile morbidity

Rehospitalization

Death caused by a complication that occurs up to 42 days of your tubal
ligation surgery.
==
You weren't paying attention, hon. Complications (which are extremely
rare)
do not equal *death from a tubal.* Nice try, though. You are quite
entertaining
tonight. Now, about the man who impregnates a sterile woman....?


With all the complications that can happen to women who don't want
children,
maybe they could just stop offering it to every man who asks. Surely
chastity is still a choice!



Chastity is indeed a choice. But not widely popular, taking your self
out for movie, dinner and dancing. Course there are always other
women.


Surely you are not saying that letting a man screw you is the price of
dinner and a movie. Eeeeew! What kind of scummy crowd do you run with?


  #30  
Old April 10th 07, 01:05 AM posted to talk.abortion,alt.child-support
Beverly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 55
Default Who has the ultimate right to choose?

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:48:14 -0700, "Chris" wrote:


"Beverly" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 11:09:31 GMT, "Kenneth S."
wrote:

But so long as women made unilateral choices, they should bear
the sole responsibility for their own choices.


I agree with the statement as written; however, just because a woman
CAN make a choice to abort while a man cannot does not necessarily
make it a unilateral choice. Children born within a marriage are
often a choice made by both,


I sense a SLIGHT contradiction in the above statements.

although not always. Conversely,
children born out of wedlock may be a choice made by both parents,


Contradiction repeated.

but
I would strongly advise any woman in this situation to make her own
decisions based upon her own circumstances.


They ALWAYS make their own decision.


I needed my husband's signature for a tubal ligation. I am under the
understanding that I would have needed his signature for an abortion
as well.




My eldest's father wanted me to abort. We were not married. I made
my decision to keep my baby and took sole responsibility for my
decision. I never asked his father for anything.

My younger two children were a product of my marriage to my ex
husband. We made the decision together to have children before they
were conceived.


There's that pesky contradiction again, unless such "children" exist at the
time of conception.


You don't believe that couples plan for children and work together at
getting the woman pregnant to achieve this goal?


While I may have made the decision to divorce, it was
based upon HIS decision to molest. If I really ever had a choice, I'd
have chosen that he never do what he did. I don't feel bad asking
that he bear some responsibility toward our children.


Translation: I don't feel bad forcing him to hand me free cash.


That said, I STILL see providing for my children as something *I* must
do. Women who DEPEND upon child support are only setting themselves
and their children up. Both households should have a responsible
parent, but the only parent we can MAKE responsible is ourselves.
Beverly



Beverly
 




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