help! ... my son has been sodomized by his cousin... what should I do?

greetings...

I have just learned that my 9-year-old "Abe" was sexually assaulted by his
10-year-old cousin "Ricky".

This happened about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago, so the boys would have been aged
about 8 and 9 at the time.

The two of them were playing unsupervised at his cousin's house. Ricky
initiated sexual conduct between the two of them and eventually he inserted
his penis into Abe's anus.

I didn't find out first about it. He was in the care of his mother (Susan)
when he finally shared what happened. She told me that during a few weeks
subsequent to "the act" Abe was becoming moody, somewhat withdrawn and
couldn't sleep well at night. She managed to have a heart-to-heart with Abe
and he blurted out what happened to him in a very tearful, emotional
session. She held him closely for a long time. Abe told Susan not to tell
me about it, and a few months later Abe told his Mom that it was okay for
her to share the news with me, which she promptly did.

Susan and I have been divorced for a long time now and so Abe lives 50/50
with his mom and with me (Alex). Fortunately, Susan and I are good friends
now and I care very much for her (hopefully she would say something similar
about me!) Each of us make a point of saying and doing kind things for one
another especially when Abe is present to witness these kindnesses. Abe
seems to have adjusted very well (Susan and I split up when he'd just turned
3). His Mom and I try our best to each separately provide very loving homes
for Abe and he seems by most observations to be a pretty happy, secure
child.

However, he does have a few behaviourial traits that potentially concern me;
these may or may not have been spawned (or made worse) by the abuse from
Ricky:
- he sometimes sees life in "all or nothing" terms, getting frustrated
easily when he attempts some task and can't do it perfectly
- he can get very frustrated in situations where he doesn't have much
control, doesn't have a say, can't influence things, etc...
- he sometimes keeps his thoughts inside, and will only share them with me
or Susan after we've done some gentle encouraging
- I suspect sometimes that he has low self-esteem, maybe even depression...
he will want to drop out of sports and other community activities if he has
a "bad day"...
- he is very spiritually aware and believes strongly in a loving God, but
when he told Susan about the abuse he cried out that he was afraid God would
punish him for what happened, especially because he actually enjoyed it at
the time
- sometimes he can be a bit serious, moody, or melancholy

I must stress that these are not *continuous* observations of his behaviour,
but *sometimes* observations.

On the plus side, Abe is a very thoughtful, creative, senstive, caring,
loving little boy. He's usually happy, and sometimes get a room full of
people laughing. I love him beyond description and we are very close, just
like two peas in a pod, being very affectionate with one another and having
lots of fun (I like acting like a ten-year-old sometimes!). I would give my
life for him, if it came to that - I'm sure many of you reading this would
say the same about your own children!

Ricky's parents, "David" and "Jane", are Susan's older brother and
sister-in-law respectively. Neither I, Abe, or Susan have mentioned what
happened to them. Ricky does not know that anyone else but Abe knows.

I have wondered how Ricky could have gotten such an idea into his head... is
9 years of age a bit young for a boy to feel sexual desire? And if he felt
that desire, how on earth would he know about anal intercourse? I do know
that he's the only child of two workaholic parents, who have given him
gazillions of toys and free and unfettered access to both the Internet and
everything available on Cable TV. Abe thinks that maybe Ricky got the anal
sex idea when he was unsupervised and watching pornography on TV, or maybe
from a sexually explicit gay website.

****here are my questions to you***

What should Susan and I do? Should we bring it up with Ricky's parents?
With Ricky? Who should be present in the room?

Is it likely that Abe is suffering any lasting effects from the abuse? Do
we need to get Abe in for counselling? Could this hamper him for the rest
of his life? What should we say to Abe about what happened?

Have any of you had a similar experience with your own children? If so,
what did you do.... what were the signs that your child had been truly
damaged... what would you suggest Susan and I do? Please share what you
can, and please take precautions of anonymity if you wish!

I do know that it's normal for some children to be more introverted than
others, and also that it's normal for young children to "play doctor" (heck,
I did it myself at around that age... I was just curious, that's all...)
when they're learning about their bodies. But intercourse seems a bit
extreme... or *that* a reasonable part of "playing doctor"?

I would be interested in hearing from ANYONE that is involved with children;
not just parents... so if you're a psychologist, psychiatrist, family
doctor, youth worker, teacher, counsellor, clergy-person, or whatever...
PLEASE share your thoughts!!

If you'd rather not post your reply to the newsgroup, please email me at
...

blessings to all of you for reading my rather long posting. I wish you all
good health and happiness.

Sincerely,

Alex Trepanier

"Alex Trepanier" wrote in message news:e7cvb.443154$6C4.86627@pd7tw1no...
greetings...

I have just learned that my 9-year-old "Abe" was sexually assaulted by his
10-year-old cousin "Ricky".

I suppose one could use that term to describe it. Sounds like the boys
were experimenting and things got out of hand, as it were.

On the other hand there was a sexual assault strictly speaking.

This happened about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago, so the boys would have been aged
about 8 and 9 at the time.

The so-called "latency age" (a freudian term referring to the latent
sexuality of the child) is not so latent.

The two of them were playing unsupervised at his cousin's house. Ricky
initiated sexual conduct between the two of them and eventually he inserted
his penis into Abe's anus.

You have defined a sexual assault.

I didn't find out first about it. He was in the care of his mother (Susan)
when he finally shared what happened. She told me that during a few weeks
subsequent to "the act" Abe was becoming moody, somewhat withdrawn and
couldn't sleep well at night. She managed to have a heart-to-heart with Abe
and he blurted out what happened to him in a very tearful, emotional
session. She held him closely for a long time. Abe told Susan not to tell
me about it, and a few months later Abe told his Mom that it was okay for
her to share the news with me, which she promptly did.

The healing process is apparently well underway. That is a good thing,
of course.

Susan and I have been divorced for a long time now and so Abe lives 50/50
with his mom and with me (Alex). Fortunately, Susan and I are good friends
now and I care very much for her (hopefully she would say something similar
about me!) Each of us make a point of saying and doing kind things for one
another especially when Abe is present to witness these kindnesses. Abe
seems to have adjusted very well (Susan and I split up when he'd just turned
3). His Mom and I try our best to each separately provide very loving homes
for Abe and he seems by most observations to be a pretty happy, secure
child.

However, he does have a few behaviourial traits that potentially concern me;
these may or may not have been spawned (or made worse) by the abuse from
Ricky:

You are quite observant I can see below.

- he sometimes sees life in "all or nothing" terms, getting frustrated
easily when he attempts some task and can't do it perfectly

That isn't a characteristic of just children that have been assaulted.
Although it is seen in children that because of trauma revert back to
an early developmental age. You may have tagged it as worthy of
concern correctly. It is only one thing though.

And kids can do some reverting when they have trauma through loss,
such as a pet dying or parents divorcing.

- he can get very frustrated in situations where he doesn't have much
control, doesn't have a say, can't influence things, etc...

That is not unusual for children in families with divorce. And
approaching puberty is a very real concern for all children and can
have some these attendant behaviors in the normal course of things.

- he sometimes keeps his thoughts inside, and will only share them with me
or Susan after we've done some gentle encouraging

Again, nothing particularly remarkable in a child with his history,
apart from the sexual assault. And many children just have a
personality that is like this.

- I suspect sometimes that he has low self-esteem, maybe even depression...
he will want to drop out of sports and other community activities if he has
a "bad day"...

This is starting to add up a bit. But still, taken alone it may be
other things as well.

- he is very spiritually aware and believes strongly in a loving God, but
when he told Susan about the abuse he cried out that he was afraid God would
punish him for what happened, especially because he actually enjoyed it at
the time

I do hope you aren't trolling. That is very much on target for
children that have been sexually abused. A sense of guilt because of
the pleasure. Rape victims report having sexual responses, and it's
referred to as Body Betrayal.

It just means his sensory system is working properly. He needn't feel
guilty because of it, and you can explain that to him. I presume you
have had "the talk" about human sexuality and the birds and bees
thing, no?

He needs to have a socially and family acceptable awareness of human
sexuality for a template to use to see his own development through.

- sometimes he can be a bit serious, moody, or melancholy

It could be connected. Or not. As I've said.


I must stress that these are not *continuous* observations of his behaviour,
but *sometimes* observations.


Well, no one watches their child 24/7 so one has to go on what one
observes.

You might consider what he's like when it good times. That is
sometimes a better indicator of how a child is doing with an issue
than focusing on the problem behaviors and characteristics.

Kids can have a mountain of "problems" and still be doing great if
they are functioning well and enthusiastically some of the time in
some circumstances.

It's when nothing is working right that one needs to worry. There are
mental illnesses that accompany loss (and he experienced a loss of
control over his body) that are serious. Clinical depression is one.
It's pretty easily treated by is not good to leave untreated for long.

On the plus side, Abe is a very thoughtful, creative, senstive, caring,
loving little boy. He's usually happy, and sometimes get a room full of
people laughing. I love him beyond description and we are very close, just
like two peas in a pod, being very affectionate with one another and having
lots of fun (I like acting like a ten-year-old sometimes!). I would give my
life for him, if it came to that - I'm sure many of you reading this would
say the same about your own children!

Sounds like he's doing great. Probably little to worry about in the
mental health area, if your readings are too biased as a parent
smile.

Ricky's parents, "David" and "Jane", are Susan's older brother and
sister-in-law respectively. Neither I, Abe, or Susan have mentioned what
happened to them. Ricky does not know that anyone else but Abe knows.

That leaves him free to do it to another child or children. He hasn't
been stopped.

I have wondered how Ricky could have gotten such an idea into his head... is
9 years of age a bit young for a boy to feel sexual desire?

No, of course it isn't. Some children are sexually active at toddler
age. They don't know what they are doing in the sense we know, but
they are responsive to sexual stimulation. It's perfectly normal, and
the amount of it covers a wide range, normally.

And if he felt
that desire, how on earth would he know about anal intercourse?

This brings up the possibility that another child or adult introduced
him to more mature eroticism. A child past 5 tends to NOT be
interested in waste excretion and the mechanics like the littler guys
are. They really do outgrow it.

So, you have a problem. If he's been molested by someone you could be
walking into a hornet's nest. You would be better served to ask for
professional help.

I do know
that he's the only child of two workaholic parents, who have given him
gazillions of toys and free and unfettered access to both the Internet and
everything available on Cable TV. Abe thinks that maybe Ricky got the anal
sex idea when he was unsupervised and watching pornography on TV, or maybe
from a sexually explicit gay website.

Where children observe sexual activity, just like they might observe
making a cake, they may well try to do it themselves. That too, as all
know, is how children learn. And they have a nature based drive to
emulate what they see and to explore.

****here are my questions to you***

What should Susan and I do? Should we bring it up with Ricky's parents?

No. That could well start a chain of events that you do not want to be
involved in. Denial usually comes first no matter the truth. If that
is sorted out and the parents believe you then you are faced with the
even more insidious problem of minimizing.

They will ask if your child was "hurt" and if not (and physically he
wasn't and he admitted to enjoying it) they will want to deescalate
the whole thing and say that it wasn't all that serious...we'll have a
talk with the boy, etc etc etc.

Or they will totally lose it and start screaming at and or beating
their son, who was, for him, doing something that was natural. He then
could be triggered into various reactions that would not be good for
him, or in the long run, good for other potentional victims.

Therapy for him may be, speaking in terms of civic responsibility,
more important than for your child. Healing wise, of course your child
comes first.

Therapy, despite the occasional hysterical lies about it, doesn't
consist of making anyone feel guilty. It's about teaching the child
what is and isn't appropriate and correct in OUR society. Any
deliberate guilting should warn you off right away, and switch
programs or counselors should that happen.

That goes for Ricky as well as Abe.

With Ricky?

No, not at this time. You aren't the person(s) to do it, and in fact
neither are his parents. He has broken the law.

It needs sorting out.

Who should be present in the room?

CPS investigator. No one else.

The outcome likely won't be as bad as you think.

You are, however, at risk of losing your child to an investigation for
awhile because you waited so long to report.

I would recommend a family attorney familiar with, and who can show
you successes with other families in similar circumstances, CPS and
the family courts in your area.

Is it likely that Abe is suffering any lasting effects from the abuse?

That is a possibility. How this is handled will determine some of
that. His own vulnerability, something you will have to assess
yourself, for another.

Do
we need to get Abe in for counselling?

If you chose to follow up on the report to Child Protective Services
that will be an option that they will press you for. Some areas have
very good services for child victims of sexual assault.

While this may be difficult at first to hear, children that are
forcefully sexually assaulted by strangers get over it more easily
that children that have been engaged with others more willingly.

Some children have no reaction the is observable. The fact that he DID
have negative responses to the sodomizing suggests his level of
vulnerability. I'd say yes, strongly, to therapy. Don't rush into that
though. See if you can find some referrences that satisfy YOU on who
should do that therapy.

Could this hamper him for the rest
of his life?

Highly unlikely if YOU maintain your calm, as you seem to be doing.
It's over reacting that causes the most dysfunction...not the actual
sexual acts.

I assume you are religious from Abe's statement about God. That puts
another spin on things. You have to deal with the values and beliefs
about sex that come from that source. I don't envy you.

What should we say to Abe about what happened?

Children that feel their parents are protective, believe them, do not
minimize the effect on them, can be very sturdy and have a quicker
recovery with less long term or short term harm. It means so much when
they are believed and supported.

They then can hear the therapist and the parents when they say he was
not to blame. That's probably a large issue for him as he, out of
perfectly normal curiosity, willingly participated...from his point of
view.

I think we can safely assume that the other child was the aggressor
had at the least some psychological control through being the older
child...the younger want to be like the older so they do tag along,
don't they? smile

Keep everything light. Seriously. Don't go into the catastrophizing
"gee-aint't-it-awfuls" with the child. It isn't "awful." It's just one
of those things that happens that shouldn't like a kid stealing a
candy bar and needing to be taught the right and wrong of it. The
event was something wrong that happened, and that is all it is.

Loading it up emotionally can tend to oversexualize it in the child's
mind, given our culture's great silliness over sexual behavior.

Have any of you had a similar experience with your own children?

I've worked under supervision in treatment with boys, for their social
and psychological dysfunctions. They were diagnosed as mentally ill.
All were sexually abused we estimated, by their acting out if not the
material gathered in intake interviews of parents and child.

Few were identified by self disclosure. Teen boys don't admit to being
sexually molested as a rule.

If so,
what did you do....

If anyone disclosed to me, and any of my collegues, that a child in
treatment with us was molested we reported it immediately to CPS.

what were the signs that your child had been truly
damaged...

It wasn't for us to assess that. We were not trained sexual abuse
investigators. They are much better at assessing levels of damage.

what would you suggest Susan and I do?

What I've said so far.

Please share what you
can, and please take precautions of anonymity if you wish!

I always do. The risks of attack by internet bugaloos is very high.
Both virtually by electronic means, and personally in the real world.

I do know that it's normal for some children to be more introverted than
others, and also that it's normal for young children to "play doctor" (heck,
I did it myself at around that age... I was just curious, that's all...)
when they're learning about their bodies. But intercourse seems a bit
extreme... or *that* a reasonable part of "playing doctor"?

It does suggest some exposure to more eroticised behavior than just
curiousity, but that isn't something that can be generalized. It is a
incident by incident assessment that matters.

I would be interested in hearing from ANYONE that is involved with children;
not just parents... so if you're a psychologist, psychiatrist, family
doctor, youth worker, teacher, counsellor, clergy-person, or whatever...
PLEASE share your thoughts!!

If you'd rather not post your reply to the newsgroup, please email me at
...

blessings to all of you for reading my rather long posting. I wish you all
good health and happiness.

Sincerely,

There are two main issues to consider:

1. Helping your son heal. (seems to be underway)

2. The very real danger that Ricky poses to other children if he isn't
stopped.

Humans tend to, when they experience sexual feelings, want to not only
repeat them but to escalate the activity, if you get my drift.

I know I do. Or so my wife claims. smile

Both boys are normal human beings as far as can be determined from
your post. They experimented. It felt good. They went a two steps
beyond what is legally acceptable and that should express also the
social mores that are and are not acceptable.


Alex Trepanier

The decision, of course, is entirely yours, Alex.

And I do hope you aren't drilling out circles into our skulls to get
to our brains.

Kane

Thank-you Kane for your detailed response. I really appreciate the time you
took with my posting, and will definitely consider your suggestions.

A couple of things bewildered me, though. Perhaps I'm a bit naive; what did
you mean when you said "I do hope you aren't trolling..." and later when you
said "I do hope you aren't drilling out circles into our skulls to get
to our brains"?

Thanks again,

Alex
"Kane" wrote in message
om...
"Alex Trepanier" wrote in message
news:e7cvb.443154$6C4.86627@pd7tw1no...
greetings...

I have just learned that my 9-year-old "Abe" was sexually assaulted by
his
10-year-old cousin "Ricky".

I suppose one could use that term to describe it. Sounds like the boys
were experimenting and things got out of hand, as it were.

On the other hand there was a sexual assault strictly speaking.

This happened about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago, so the boys would have been
aged
about 8 and 9 at the time.

The so-called "latency age" (a freudian term referring to the latent
sexuality of the child) is not so latent.

The two of them were playing unsupervised at his cousin's house. Ricky
initiated sexual conduct between the two of them and eventually he
inserted
his penis into Abe's anus.

You have defined a sexual assault.

I didn't find out first about it. He was in the care of his mother
(Susan)
when he finally shared what happened. She told me that during a few
weeks
subsequent to "the act" Abe was becoming moody, somewhat withdrawn and
couldn't sleep well at night. She managed to have a heart-to-heart with
Abe
and he blurted out what happened to him in a very tearful, emotional
session. She held him closely for a long time. Abe told Susan not to
tell
me about it, and a few months later Abe told his Mom that it was okay
for
her to share the news with me, which she promptly did.

The healing process is apparently well underway. That is a good thing,
of course.

Susan and I have been divorced for a long time now and so Abe lives
50/50
with his mom and with me (Alex). Fortunately, Susan and I are good
friends
now and I care very much for her (hopefully she would say something
similar
about me!) Each of us make a point of saying and doing kind things for
one
another especially when Abe is present to witness these kindnesses. Abe
seems to have adjusted very well (Susan and I split up when he'd just
turned
3). His Mom and I try our best to each separately provide very loving
homes
for Abe and he seems by most observations to be a pretty happy, secure
child.

However, he does have a few behaviourial traits that potentially concern
me;
these may or may not have been spawned (or made worse) by the abuse from
Ricky:

You are quite observant I can see below.

- he sometimes sees life in "all or nothing" terms, getting frustrated
easily when he attempts some task and can't do it perfectly

That isn't a characteristic of just children that have been assaulted.
Although it is seen in children that because of trauma revert back to
an early developmental age. You may have tagged it as worthy of
concern correctly. It is only one thing though.

And kids can do some reverting when they have trauma through loss,
such as a pet dying or parents divorcing.

- he can get very frustrated in situations where he doesn't have much
control, doesn't have a say, can't influence things, etc...

That is not unusual for children in families with divorce. And
approaching puberty is a very real concern for all children and can
have some these attendant behaviors in the normal course of things.

- he sometimes keeps his thoughts inside, and will only share them with
me
or Susan after we've done some gentle encouraging

Again, nothing particularly remarkable in a child with his history,
apart from the sexual assault. And many children just have a
personality that is like this.

- I suspect sometimes that he has low self-esteem, maybe even
depression...
he will want to drop out of sports and other community activities if he
has
a "bad day"...

This is starting to add up a bit. But still, taken alone it may be
other things as well.

- he is very spiritually aware and believes strongly in a loving God,
but
when he told Susan about the abuse he cried out that he was afraid God
would
punish him for what happened, especially because he actually enjoyed it
at
the time

I do hope you aren't trolling. That is very much on target for
children that have been sexually abused. A sense of guilt because of
the pleasure. Rape victims report having sexual responses, and it's
referred to as Body Betrayal.

It just means his sensory system is working properly. He needn't feel
guilty because of it, and you can explain that to him. I presume you
have had "the talk" about human sexuality and the birds and bees
thing, no?

He needs to have a socially and family acceptable awareness of human
sexuality for a template to use to see his own development through.

- sometimes he can be a bit serious, moody, or melancholy

It could be connected. Or not. As I've said.


I must stress that these are not *continuous* observations of his
behaviour,
but *sometimes* observations.


Well, no one watches their child 24/7 so one has to go on what one
observes.

You might consider what he's like when it good times. That is
sometimes a better indicator of how a child is doing with an issue
than focusing on the problem behaviors and characteristics.

Kids can have a mountain of "problems" and still be doing great if
they are functioning well and enthusiastically some of the time in
some circumstances.

It's when nothing is working right that one needs to worry. There are
mental illnesses that accompany loss (and he experienced a loss of
control over his body) that are serious. Clinical depression is one.
It's pretty easily treated by is not good to leave untreated for long.

On the plus side, Abe is a very thoughtful, creative, senstive, caring,
loving little boy. He's usually happy, and sometimes get a room full of
people laughing. I love him beyond description and we are very close,
just
like two peas in a pod, being very affectionate with one another and
having
lots of fun (I like acting like a ten-year-old sometimes!). I would
give my
life for him, if it came to that - I'm sure many of you reading this
would
say the same about your own children!

Sounds like he's doing great. Probably little to worry about in the
mental health area, if your readings are too biased as a parent
smile.

Ricky's parents, "David" and "Jane", are Susan's older brother and
sister-in-law respectively. Neither I, Abe, or Susan have mentioned
what
happened to them. Ricky does not know that anyone else but Abe knows.

That leaves him free to do it to another child or children. He hasn't
been stopped.

I have wondered how Ricky could have gotten such an idea into his
head... is
9 years of age a bit young for a boy to feel sexual desire?

No, of course it isn't. Some children are sexually active at toddler
age. They don't know what they are doing in the sense we know, but
they are responsive to sexual stimulation. It's perfectly normal, and
the amount of it covers a wide range, normally.

And if he felt
that desire, how on earth would he know about anal intercourse?

This brings up the possibility that another child or adult introduced
him to more mature eroticism. A child past 5 tends to NOT be
interested in waste excretion and the mechanics like the littler guys
are. They really do outgrow it.

So, you have a problem. If he's been molested by someone you could be
walking into a hornet's nest. You would be better served to ask for
professional help.

I do know
that he's the only child of two workaholic parents, who have given him
gazillions f toys and free and unfettered access to both the Internet
and
everything available on Cable TV. Abe thinks that maybe Ricky got the
anal
sex idea when he was unsupervised and watching pornography on TV, or
maybe
from a sexually explicit gay website.

Where children observe sexual activity, just like they might observe
making a cake, they may well try to do it themselves. That too, as all
know, is how children learn. And they have a nature based drive to
emulate what they see and to explore.

****here are my questions to you***

What should Susan and I do? Should we bring it up with Ricky's parents?

No. That could well start a chain of events that you do not want to be
involved in. Denial usually comes first no matter the truth. If that
is sorted out and the parents believe you then you are faced with the
even more insidious problem of minimizing.

They will ask if your child was "hurt" and if not (and physically he
wasn't and he admitted to enjoying it) they will want to deescalate
the whole thing and say that it wasn't all that serious...we'll have a
talk with the boy, etc etc etc.

Or they will totally lose it and start screaming at and or beating
their son, who was, for him, doing something that was natural. He then
could be triggered into various reactions that would not be good for
him, or in the long run, good for other potentional victims.

Therapy for him may be, speaking in terms of civic responsibility,
more important than for your child. Healing wise, of course your child
comes first.

Therapy, despite the occasional hysterical lies about it, doesn't
consist of making anyone feel guilty. It's about teaching the child
what is and isn't appropriate and correct in OUR society. Any
deliberate guilting should warn you off right away, and switch
programs or counselors should that happen.

That goes for Ricky as well as Abe.

With Ricky?

No, not at this time. You aren't the person(s) to do it, and in fact
neither are his parents. He has broken the law.

It needs sorting out.

Who should be present in the room?

CPS investigator. No one else.

The outcome likely won't be as bad as you think.

You are, however, at risk of losing your child to an investigation for
awhile because you waited so long to report.

I would recommend a family attorney familiar with, and who can show
you successes with other families in similar circumstances, CPS and
the family courts in your area.

Is it likely that Abe is suffering any lasting effects from the abuse?

That is a possibility. How this is handled will determine some of
that. His own vulnerability, something you will have to assess
yourself, for another.

Do
we need to get Abe in for counselling?

If you chose to follow up on the report to Child Protective Services
that will be an option that they will press you for. Some areas have
very good services for child victims of sexual assault.

While this may be difficult at first to hear, children that are
forcefully sexually assaulted by strangers get over it more easily
that children that have been engaged with others more willingly.

Some children have no reaction the is observable. The fact that he DID
have negative responses to the sodomizing suggests his level of
vulnerability. I'd say yes, strongly, to therapy. Don't rush into that
though. See if you can find some referrences that satisfy YOU on who
should do that therapy.

Could this hamper him for the rest
of his life?

Highly unlikely if YOU maintain your calm, as you seem to be doing.
It's over reacting that causes the most dysfunction...not the actual
sexual acts.

I assume you are religious from Abe's statement about God. That puts
another spin on things. You have to deal with the values and beliefs
about sex that come from that source. I don't envy you.

What should we say to Abe about what happened?

Children that feel their parents are protective, believe them, do not
minimize the effect on them, can be very sturdy and have a quicker
recovery with less long term or short term harm. It means so much when
they are believed and supported.

They then can hear the therapist and the parents when they say he was
not to blame. That's probably a large issue for him as he, out of
perfectly normal curiosity, willingly participated...from his point of
view.

I think we can safely assume that the other child was the aggressor
had at the least some psychological control through being the older
child...the younger want to be like the older so they do tag along,
don't they? smile

Keep everything light. Seriously. Don't go into the catastrophizing
"gee-aint't-it-awfuls" with the child. It isn't "awful." It's just one
of those things that happens that shouldn't like a kid stealing a
candy bar and needing to be taught the right and wrong of it. The
event was something wrong that happened, and that is all it is.

Loading it up emotionally can tend to oversexualize it in the child's
mind, given our culture's great silliness over sexual behavior.

Have any of you had a similar experience with your own children?

I've worked under supervision in treatment with boys, for their social
and psychological dysfunctions. They were diagnosed as mentally ill.
All were sexually abused we estimated, by their acting out if not the
material gathered in intake interviews of parents and child.

Few were identified by self disclosure. Teen boys don't admit to being
sexually molested as a rule.

If so,
what did you do....

If anyone disclosed to me, and any of my collegues, that a child in
treatment with us was molested we reported it immediately to CPS.

what were the signs that your child had been truly
damaged...

It wasn't for us to assess that. We were not trained sexual abuse
investigators. They are much better at assessing levels of damage.

what would you suggest Susan and I do?

What I've said so far.

Please share what you
can, and please take precautions of anonymity if you wish!

I always do. The risks of attack by internet bugaloos is very high.
Both virtually by electronic means, and personally in the real world.

I do know that it's normal for some children to be more introverted than
others, and also that it's normal for young children to "play doctor"
(heck,
I did it myself at around that age... I was just curious, that's all...)
when they're learning about their bodies. But intercourse seems a bit
extreme... or *that* a reasonable part of "playing doctor"?

It does suggest some exposure to more eroticised behavior than just
curiousity, but that isn't something that can be generalized. It is a
incident by incident assessment that matters.

I would be interested in hearing from ANYONE that is involved with
children;
not just parents... so if you're a psychologist, psychiatrist, family
doctor, youth worker, teacher, counsellor, clergy-person, or whatever...
PLEASE share your thoughts!!

If you'd rather not post your reply to the newsgroup, please email me at
...

blessings to all of you for reading my rather long posting. I wish you
all
good health and happiness.

Sincerely,

There are two main issues to consider:

1. Helping your son heal. (seems to be underway)

2. The very real danger that Ricky poses to other children if he isn't
stopped.

Humans tend to, when they experience sexual feelings, want to not only
repeat them but to escalate the activity, if you get my drift.

I know I do. Or so my wife claims. smile

Both boys are normal human beings as far as can be determined from
your post. They experimented. It felt good. They went a two steps
beyond what is legally acceptable and that should express also the
social mores that are and are not acceptable.


Alex Trepanier

The decision, of course, is entirely yours, Alex.

And I do hope you aren't drilling out circles into our skulls to get
to our brains.

Kane

Alex Trepanier wrote:

greetings...

I have just learned that my 9-year-old "Abe" was sexually assaulted by his
10-year-old cousin "Ricky".

This happened about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago, so the boys would have been aged
about 8 and 9 at the time.

The two of them were playing unsupervised at his cousin's house. Ricky
initiated sexual conduct between the two of them and eventually he inserted
his penis into Abe's anus.

I didn't find out first about it. He was in the care of his mother (Susan)
when he finally shared what happened. She told me that during a few weeks
subsequent to "the act" Abe was becoming moody, somewhat withdrawn and
couldn't sleep well at night. She managed to have a heart-to-heart with Abe
and he blurted out what happened to him in a very tearful, emotional
session. She held him closely for a long time. Abe told Susan not to tell
me about it, and a few months later Abe told his Mom that it was okay for
her to share the news with me, which she promptly did.

Susan and I have been divorced for a long time now and so Abe lives 50/50
with his mom and with me (Alex). Fortunately, Susan and I are good friends
now and I care very much for her (hopefully she would say something similar
about me!) Each of us make a point of saying and doing kind things for one
another especially when Abe is present to witness these kindnesses. Abe
seems to have adjusted very well (Susan and I split up when he'd just turned
3). His Mom and I try our best to each separately provide very loving homes
for Abe and he seems by most observations to be a pretty happy, secure
child.

However, he does have a few behaviourial traits that potentially concern me;
these may or may not have been spawned (or made worse) by the abuse from
Ricky:
- he sometimes sees life in "all or nothing" terms, getting frustrated
easily when he attempts some task and can't do it perfectly
- he can get very frustrated in situations where he doesn't have much
control, doesn't have a say, can't influence things, etc...
- he sometimes keeps his thoughts inside, and will only share them with me
or Susan after we've done some gentle encouraging
- I suspect sometimes that he has low self-esteem, maybe even depression...
------------------------
Children often feel their lives are out of their control, precisely
BECAUSE they are being lied to and controlled by their adults who
should STOP treating them that way, and teach them the TRUTH about
things and stop using lies and omissions to control them! Omissions
of fact are simply transparent to children, and it leaves an OBVIOUS
unexplained hole in their world which make children paranoid of the
motives and purposes of adults and adult activities.


he will want to drop out of sports and other community activities if he has
a "bad day"...
- he is very spiritually aware and believes strongly in a loving God, but
when he told Susan about the abuse he cried out that he was afraid God would
punish him for what happened, especially because he actually enjoyed it at
the time
- sometimes he can be a bit serious, moody, or melancholy
------------------
This "God" ****, regarding sex, is stupid, and it hurts children
in their mind and heart and imagination. STOP IT, YOU FOOL!


I must stress that these are not *continuous* observations of his behaviour,
but *sometimes* observations.

On the plus side, Abe is a very thoughtful, creative, senstive, caring,
loving little boy. He's usually happy, and sometimes get a room full of
people laughing. I love him beyond description and we are very close, just
like two peas in a pod, being very affectionate with one another and having
lots of fun (I like acting like a ten-year-old sometimes!). I would give my
life for him, if it came to that - I'm sure many of you reading this would
say the same about your own children!

Ricky's parents, "David" and "Jane", are Susan's older brother and
sister-in-law respectively. Neither I, Abe, or Susan have mentioned what
happened to them. Ricky does not know that anyone else but Abe knows.

I have wondered how Ricky could have gotten such an idea into his head... is
9 years of age a bit young for a boy to feel sexual desire?
-----------------
You really ARE ill-educated and sexually ignorant and repressed,
aren't you!!?!! Sexual interest and pleasure occurs from birth,
it is simply suppressed and shamed by this distorted society.


And if he felt
that desire, how on earth would he know about anal intercourse?
--------------------
Kids at age 5 are calling each other "butt****ers" in school and in
the neighborhood and always have, where the **** did YOU grow up,
in church!!


I do know
that he's the only child of two workaholic parents, who have given him
gazillions of toys and free and unfettered access to both the Internet and
everything available on Cable TV. Abe thinks that maybe Ricky got the anal
sex idea when he was unsupervised and watching pornography on TV, or maybe
from a sexually explicit gay website.
------------------------
Nope, sexual interest comes from having a penis, and interest in butts,
mouthes and vaginas comes directly from an interest in one's penis and
how to make it feel good by what it will fit into.


****here are my questions to you***

What should Susan and I do? Should we bring it up with Ricky's parents?
With Ricky? Who should be present in the room?
------------------------
Depends on who is more sane sexually, you or them. If they are
religious repressed sexual idiots, you'll do more harm than good.


Is it likely that Abe is suffering any lasting effects from the abuse? Do
we need to get Abe in for counselling? Could this hamper him for the rest
of his life? What should we say to Abe about what happened?
-----------------------------
You should tell them both that they shouldn't force each other to
do anything, and that God doesn't care as long as they both like it.


Have any of you had a similar experience with your own children? If so,
what did you do.... what were the signs that your child had been truly
damaged... what would you suggest Susan and I do? Please share what you
can, and please take precautions of anonymity if you wish!
----------------------
The "damage" comes from what they infer from adults and what adults
tell them about it, and not from the sexual experience itself. If
you correct their superstitious impression then there is no harm.


I do know that it's normal for some children to be more introverted than
others, and also that it's normal for young children to "play doctor" (heck,
I did it myself at around that age... I was just curious, that's all...)
when they're learning about their bodies. But intercourse seems a bit
extreme... or *that* a reasonable part of "playing doctor"?
----------------------
Nope, perfectly normal, in fact expected.


I would be interested in hearing from ANYONE that is involved with children;
not just parents... so if you're a psychologist, psychiatrist, family
doctor, youth worker, teacher, counsellor, clergy-person, or whatever...
PLEASE share your thoughts!!

If you'd rather not post your reply to the newsgroup, please email me at
...

blessings to all of you for reading my rather long posting. I wish you all
good health and happiness.

Sincerely,

Alex Trepanier
---------------------
You have over-analyzed and over-blown what happened. You seem to have
brainwashed your kids with "bad-touch" crap so badly that your younger
child imagines he has no been permanently harmed or something, when
that's ridiculous. You need to relieve him of that belief so that he
doesn't imagine that he has, in some way incomprehensible to his own
understanding, been "changed" for the worse. The imposition of that
sort of superstition about adult-stuff makes kids afraid needlessly.

Kids experiment, and this is normal behavior for them, and which you
should NOT shame or blame! You SHOULD have had the kind of simple
friendly off-handed blitheness about sexuality that permits your kid
to say, "Ricky's trying to stick his dick in my butt and I don't like
it!" and for you to say, "Don't do that if he doesn't like it, Ricky!"
and then forget about it, just as you would other issues involving
playing together or doing whatever to each other.

There's nothing magic about who plays with your butt except that you
don't have to let someone do it if you don't like it. THAT is the ONLY
healthy sexual message!!
Steve

Kane wrote:

"Alex Trepanier" wrote in message news:e7cvb.443154$6C4.86627@pd7tw1no...
greetings...

I have just learned that my 9-year-old "Abe" was sexually assaulted by his
10-year-old cousin "Ricky".

I suppose one could use that term to describe it. Sounds like the boys
were experimenting and things got out of hand, as it were.

On the other hand there was a sexual assault strictly speaking.

This happened about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago, so the boys would have been aged
about 8 and 9 at the time.

The so-called "latency age" (a freudian term referring to the latent
sexuality of the child) is not so latent.

The two of them were playing unsupervised at his cousin's house. Ricky
initiated sexual conduct between the two of them and eventually he inserted
his penis into Abe's anus.

You have defined a sexual assault.
--------------------
That's going too far, Kane.


I didn't find out first about it. He was in the care of his mother (Susan)
when he finally shared what happened. She told me that during a few weeks
subsequent to "the act" Abe was becoming moody, somewhat withdrawn and
couldn't sleep well at night. She managed to have a heart-to-heart with Abe
and he blurted out what happened to him in a very tearful, emotional
session. She held him closely for a long time. Abe told Susan not to tell
me about it, and a few months later Abe told his Mom that it was okay for
her to share the news with me, which she promptly did.

The healing process is apparently well underway. That is a good thing,
of course.
----------------------
The damage was caused by adults and his inferences about adults and
shame he believed they wanted him to feel.


Susan and I have been divorced for a long time now and so Abe lives 50/50
with his mom and with me (Alex). Fortunately, Susan and I are good friends
now and I care very much for her (hopefully she would say something similar
about me!) Each of us make a point of saying and doing kind things for one
another especially when Abe is present to witness these kindnesses. Abe
seems to have adjusted very well (Susan and I split up when he'd just turned
3). His Mom and I try our best to each separately provide very loving homes
for Abe and he seems by most observations to be a pretty happy, secure
child.

However, he does have a few behaviourial traits that potentially concern me;
these may or may not have been spawned (or made worse) by the abuse from
Ricky:

You are quite observant I can see below.

- he sometimes sees life in "all or nothing" terms, getting frustrated
easily when he attempts some task and can't do it perfectly

That isn't a characteristic of just children that have been assaulted.
-------------
Of course it is, any dispiritedness is, but as I said, the damage
is because of his expectations from the experience, and not the
experience itself. Those are imposed by adults.


Although it is seen in children that because of trauma revert back to
an early developmental age. You may have tagged it as worthy of
concern correctly. It is only one thing though.

And kids can do some reverting when they have trauma through loss,
such as a pet dying or parents divorcing.

- he can get very frustrated in situations where he doesn't have much
control, doesn't have a say, can't influence things, etc...

That is not unusual for children in families with divorce. And
approaching puberty is a very real concern for all children and can
have some these attendant behaviors in the normal course of things.
------------------------
In medical terms, age 8 or 9 is the beginning of puberty for many,
it occurs earlier than commonly believed, as the low-brain begins
the process of hormonal modificiation in those years.


- he sometimes keeps his thoughts inside, and will only share them with me
or Susan after we've done some gentle encouraging

Again, nothing particularly remarkable in a child with his history,
apart from the sexual assault.
---------------------
Using that terminology is irresponsible in the case of kids' playing.


And many children just have a
personality that is like this.

- I suspect sometimes that he has low self-esteem, maybe even depression...
he will want to drop out of sports and other community activities if he has
a "bad day"...

This is starting to add up a bit. But still, taken alone it may be
other things as well.

- he is very spiritually aware and believes strongly in a loving God, but
when he told Susan about the abuse he cried out that he was afraid God would
punish him for what happened, especially because he actually enjoyed it at
the time

I do hope you aren't trolling. That is very much on target for
children that have been sexually abused. A sense of guilt because of
the pleasure. Rape victims report having sexual responses, and it's
referred to as Body Betrayal.
---------------------------------
Except it also happens WITHOUT rape. It's called your body betraying
your parents and your imposed religion of guilt and shame. Quit
thinking in catch-phrase idea-bites!!


It just means his sensory system is working properly. He needn't feel
guilty because of it, and you can explain that to him. I presume you
have had "the talk" about human sexuality and the birds and bees
thing, no?

He needs to have a socially and family acceptable awareness of human
sexuality for a template to use to see his own development through.

- sometimes he can be a bit serious, moody, or melancholy

It could be connected. Or not. As I've said.


I must stress that these are not *continuous* observations of his behaviour,
but *sometimes* observations.


Well, no one watches their child 24/7 so one has to go on what one
observes.

You might consider what he's like when it good times. That is
sometimes a better indicator of how a child is doing with an issue
than focusing on the problem behaviors and characteristics.

Kids can have a mountain of "problems" and still be doing great if
they are functioning well and enthusiastically some of the time in
some circumstances.

It's when nothing is working right that one needs to worry. There are
mental illnesses that accompany loss (and he experienced a loss of
control over his body) that are serious. Clinical depression is one.
It's pretty easily treated by is not good to leave untreated for long.

On the plus side, Abe is a very thoughtful, creative, senstive, caring,
loving little boy. He's usually happy, and sometimes get a room full of
people laughing. I love him beyond description and we are very close, just
like two peas in a pod, being very affectionate with one another and having
lots of fun (I like acting like a ten-year-old sometimes!). I would give my
life for him, if it came to that - I'm sure many of you reading this would
say the same about your own children!

Sounds like he's doing great. Probably little to worry about in the
mental health area, if your readings are too biased as a parent
smile.

Ricky's parents, "David" and "Jane", are Susan's older brother and
sister-in-law respectively. Neither I, Abe, or Susan have mentioned what
happened to them. Ricky does not know that anyone else but Abe knows.

That leaves him free to do it to another child or children. He hasn't
been stopped.
-------------------------------
He simply has to be confronted about not FORCING other kids.


I have wondered how Ricky could have gotten such an idea into his head... is
9 years of age a bit young for a boy to feel sexual desire?

No, of course it isn't. Some children are sexually active at toddler
age. They don't know what they are doing in the sense we know, but
they are responsive to sexual stimulation. It's perfectly normal, and
the amount of it covers a wide range, normally.

And if he felt
that desire, how on earth would he know about anal intercourse?

This brings up the possibility that another child or adult introduced
him to more mature eroticism. A child past 5 tends to NOT be
interested in waste excretion and the mechanics like the littler guys
are. They really do outgrow it.
----------------------------
Sure, sort of, but this wasn't excretory, it was sexual, and that is
still normal for the supposed pre-pubescent.


So, you have a problem. If he's been molested by someone you could be
walking into a hornet's nest. You would be better served to ask for
professional help.
-----------------------
If you're friendly enough with the child, you can simply ask him and
he'll tell you.


I do know
that he's the only child of two workaholic parents, who have given him
gazillions of toys and free and unfettered access to both the Internet and
everything available on Cable TV. Abe thinks that maybe Ricky got the anal
sex idea when he was unsupervised and watching pornography on TV, or maybe
from a sexually explicit gay website.

Where children observe sexual activity, just like they might observe
making a cake, they may well try to do it themselves. That too, as all
know, is how children learn. And they have a nature based drive to
emulate what they see and to explore.

****here are my questions to you***

What should Susan and I do? Should we bring it up with Ricky's parents?

No. That could well start a chain of events that you do no want to be
involved in. Denial usually comes first no matter the truth. If that
is sorted out and the parents believe you then you are faced with the
even more insidious problem of minimizing.

They will ask if your child was "hurt" and if not (and physically he
wasn't and he admitted to enjoying it) they will want to deescalate
the whole thing and say that it wasn't all that serious...we'll have a
talk with the boy, etc etc etc.

Or they will totally lose it and start screaming at and or beating
their son, who was, for him, doing something that was natural. He then
could be triggered into various reactions that would not be good for
him, or in the long run, good for other potentional victims.

Therapy for him may be, speaking in terms of civic responsibility,
more important than for your child. Healing wise, of course your child
comes first.
-------------------
Kids playing at sexuality doesn't require therapy.
You're over the top again.


Therapy, despite the occasional hysterical lies about it, doesn't
consist of making anyone feel guilty. It's about teaching the child
what is and isn't appropriate and correct in OUR society.
--------------
That's NOT what therapy is about, that's called "functionalism",
using psychology for social control, and it is disreputable as
psychology for the health of patients.


Any
deliberate guilting should warn you off right away, and switch
programs or counselors should that happen.

That goes for Ricky as well as Abe.

With Ricky?

No, not at this time. You aren't the person(s) to do it, and in fact
neither are his parents. He has broken the law.
--------------------------------
Not precisely, molestation is not even defined between pre-pubescent
children!! Again, you're blathering antisexual political correctness,
the WORST form of PC crap!


It needs sorting out.

Who should be present in the room?

CPS investigator. No one else.
--------------------------
Total garbage!!


The outcome likely won't be as bad as you think.
--------------------------
If you don't count having your child removed and harmed!!!


You are, however, at risk of losing your child to an investigation for
awhile because you waited so long to report.
-----------------------------
As I said, HARMED!!!


I would recommend a family attorney familiar with, and who can show
you successes with other families in similar circumstances, CPS and
the family courts in your area.
-----------------------------
I'd recommend you stay the **** away from the law, they always seem
to damage everyone they touch.


Is it likely that Abe is suffering any lasting effects from the abuse?

That is a possibility. How this is handled will determine some of
that. His own vulnerability, something you will have to assess
yourself, for another.
-------------------------
Your handling featuring CPS can assuredly harm hiom permanently!


Do
we need to get Abe in for counselling?

If you chose to follow up on the report to Child Protective Services
that will be an option that they will press you for. Some areas have
very good services for child victims of sexual assault.
----------------------
You really are ****ing crazy! Kids have been plating at butt****ing
since time immemorial! Let me guess, you grew up without siblings!??!


While this may be difficult at first to hear, children that are
forcefully sexually assaulted by strangers get over it more easily
that children that have been engaged with others more willingly.

Some children have no reaction the is observable. The fact that he DID
have negative responses to the sodomizing suggests his level of
vulnerability. I'd say yes, strongly, to therapy. Don't rush into that
though. See if you can find some referrences that satisfy YOU on who
should do that therapy.
------------------------------------
The ONLY negative reaction he appeared to have was related to the
expectation of shame by adults and harm from "God"!!! Both forms
of damage done BY PARENTS LONG BEFORE!! He EVEN said he felt
guilty because he ENJOYED IT!


Could this hamper him for the rest
of his life?

Highly unlikely if YOU maintain your calm, as you seem to be doing.
It's over reacting that causes the most dysfunction...not the actual
sexual acts.

I assume you are religious from Abe's statement about God. That puts
another spin on things. You have to deal with the values and beliefs
about sex that come from that source. I don't envy you.
--------------------
You need to tell him that whoever said that **** to him was WRONG ABOUT
GOD, and CAN'T BE TRUSTED TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD ANYMORE!


What should we say to Abe about what happened?

Children that feel their parents are protective, believe them, do not
minimize the effect on them, can be very sturdy and have a quicker
recovery with less long term or short term harm. It means so much when
they are believed and supported.

They then can hear the therapist and the parents when they say he was
not to blame. That's probably a large issue for him as he, out of
perfectly normal curiosity, willingly participated...from his point of
view.

I think we can safely assume that the other child was the aggressor
had at the least some psychological control through being the older
child...the younger want to be like the older so they do tag along,
don't they? smile

Keep everything light. Seriously. Don't go into the catastrophizing
"gee-aint't-it-awfuls" with the child. It isn't "awful." It's just one
of those things that happens that shouldn't like a kid stealing a
candy bar and needing to be taught the right and wrong of it. The
event was something wrong that happened, and that is all it is.
----------------
Garbage, kids are SUPPOSED to steal candy bars! They'd be DAMAGED
if they DIDN'T! You just have to make sure they know not to steal
them from STRANGERS who will HARM them!


Loading it up emotionally can tend to oversexualize it in the child's
mind, given our culture's great silliness over sexual behavior.

Have any of you had a similar experience with your own children?

I've worked under supervision in treatment with boys, for their social
and psychological dysfunctions. They were diagnosed as mentally ill.
All were sexually abused we estimated, by their acting out if not the
material gathered in intake interviews of parents and child.

Few were identified by self disclosure. Teen boys don't admit to being
sexually molested as a rule.

If so,
what did you do....

If anyone disclosed to me, and any of my collegues, that a child in
treatment with us was molested we reported it immediately to CPS.
--------------------------
That is a good reason for anyone in a helping profession to NEVER
become aligned with CPS or a situation of mandatory report!


what were the signs that your child had been truly
damaged...

It wasn't for us to assess that. We were not trained sexual abuse
investigators. They are much better at assessing levels of damage.
------------------------
Garbage.


what would you suggest Susan and I do?

What I've said so far.

Please share what you
can, and please take precautions of anonymity if you wish!

I always do. The risks of attack by internet bugaloos is very high.
Both virtually by electronic means, and personally in the real world.

I do know that it's normal for some children to be more introverted than
others, and also that it's normal for young children to "play doctor" (heck,
I did it myself at around that age... I was just curious, that's all...)
when they're learning about their bodies. But intercourse seems a bit
extreme... or *that* a reasonable part of "playing doctor"?

It does suggest some exposure to more eroticised behavior than just
curiousity, but that isn't something that can be generalized. It is a
incident by incident assessment that matters.
-----------------
Pure nonsense, kids do that all the time.


I would be interested in hearing from ANYONE that is involved with children;
not just parents... so if you're a psychologist, psychiatrist, family
doctor, youth worker, teacher, counsellor, clergy-person, or whatever...
PLEASE share your thoughts!!

If you'd rather not post your reply to the newsgroup, please email me at
...

blessings to all of you for reading my rather long posting. I wish you all
good health and happiness.

Sincerely,

There are two main issues to consider:

1. Helping your son heal. (seems to be underway)

2. The very real danger that Ricky poses to other children if he isn't
stopped.

Humans tend to, when they experience sexual feelings, want to not only
repeat them but to escalate the activity, if you get my drift.

I know I do. Or so my wife claims. smile

Both boys are normal human beings as far as can be determined from
your post. They experimented. It felt good. They went a two steps
beyond what is legally acceptable and that should express also the
social mores that are and are not acceptable.
-------------------
They're too young for that, you blithering idiot! It's NOT THEIR
BUSINESS to know all that, and WASN'T!


Alex Trepanier

The decision, of course, is entirely yours, Alex.

And I do hope you aren't drilling out circles into our skulls to get
to our brains.

Kane
------------------
That seems to be the level of your asinine suggestions.
Steve

Steve,

thank-you for your perspective. I appreciate you taking the time that you
did.

Have a great weekend!

....Alex

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
Kane wrote:

"Alex Trepanier" wrote in message
news:e7cvb.443154$6C4.86627@pd7tw1no...
greetings...

I have just learned that my 9-year-old "Abe" was sexually assaulted by
his
10-year-old cousin "Ricky".

I suppose one could use that term to describe it. Sounds like the boys
were experimenting and things got out of hand, as it were.

On the other hand there was a sexual assault strictly speaking.

This happened about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago, so the boys would have been
aged
about 8 and 9 at the time.

The so-called "latency age" (a freudian term referring to the latent
sexuality of the child) is not so latent.

The two of them were playing unsupervised at his cousin's house.
Ricky
initiated sexual conduct between the two of them and eventually he
inserted
his penis into Abe's anus.

You have defined a sexual assault.
--------------------
That's going too far, Kane.


I didn't find out first about it. He was in the care of his mother
(Susan)
when he finally shared what happened. She told me that during a few
weeks
subsequent to "the act" Abe was becoming moody, somewhat withdrawn and
couldn't sleep well at night. She managed to have a heart-to-heart
with Abe
and he blurted out what happened to him in a very tearful, emotional
session. She held him closely for a long time. Abe told Susan not to
tell
me about it, and a few months later Abe told his Mom that it was okay
for
her to share the news with me, which she promptly did.

The healing process is apparently well underway. That is a good thing,
of course.
----------------------
The damage was caused by adults and his inferences about adults and
shame he believed they wanted him to feel.


Susan and I have been divorced for a long time now and so Abe lives
50/50
with his mom and with me (Alex). Fortunately, Susan and I are good
friends
now and I care very much for her (hopefully she would say something
similar
about me!) Each of us make a point of saying and doing kind things
for one
another especially when Abe is present to witness these kindnesses.
Abe
seems to have adjusted very well (Susan and I split up when he'd just
turned
3). His Mom and I try our best to each separately provide very loving
homes
for Abe and he seems by most observations to be a pretty happy, secure
child.

However, he does have a few behaviourial traits that potentially
concern me;
these may or may not have been spawned (or made worse) by the abuse
from
Ricky:

You are quite observant I can see below.

- he sometimes sees life in "all or nothing" terms, getting frustrated
easily when he attempts some task and can't do it perfectly

That isn't a characteristic of just children that have been assaulted.
-------------
Of course it is, any dispiritedness is, but as I said, the damage
is because of his expectations from the experience, and not the
experience itself. Those are imposed by adults.


Although it is seen in children that because of trauma revert back to
an early developmental age. You may have tagged it as worthy of
concern correctly. It is only one thing though.

And kids can do some reverting when they have trauma through loss,
such as a pet dying or parents divorcing.

- he can get very frustrated in situations where he doesn't have much
control, doesn't have a say, can't influence things, etc...

That is not unusual for children in families with divorce. And
approaching puberty is a very real concern for all children and can
have some these attendant behaviors in the normal course of things.
------------------------
In medical terms, age 8 or 9 is the beginning of puberty for many,
it occurs earlier than commonly believed, as the low-brain begins
the process of hormonal modificiation in those years.


- he sometimes keeps his thoughts inside, and will only share them
with me
or Susan after we've done some gentle encouraging

Again, nothing particularly remarkable in a child with his history,
apart from the sexual assault.
---------------------
Using that terminology is irresponsible in the case of kids' playing.


And many children just have a
personality that is like this.

- I suspect sometimes that he has low self-esteem, maybe even
depression...
he will want to drop out of sports and other community activities if
he has
a "bad day"...

This is starting to add up a bit. But still, taken alone it may be
other things as well.

- he is very spiritually aware and believes strongly in a loving God,
but
when he told Susan about the abuse he cried out that he was afraid God
would
punish him for what happened, especially because he actually enjoyed
it at
the time

I do hope you aren't trolling. That is very much on target for
children that have been sexually abused. A sense of guilt because of
the pleasure. Rape victims report having sexual responses, and it's
referred to as Body Betrayal.
---------------------------------
Except it also happens WITHOUT rape. It's called your body betraying
your parents and your imposed religion of guilt and shame. Quit
thinking in catch-phrase idea-bites!!


It just means his sensory system is working properly. He needn't feel
guilty because of it, and you can explain that to him. I presume you
have had "the talk" about human sexuality and the birds and bees
thing, no?

He needs to have a socially and family acceptable awareness of human
sexuality for a template to use to see his own development through.

- sometimes he can be a bit serious, moody, or melancholy

It could be connected. Or not. As I've said.


I must stress that these are not *continuous* observations of his
behaviour,
but *sometimes* observations.


Well, no one watches their child 24/7 so one has to go on what one
observes.

You might consider what he's like when it good times. That is
sometimes a better indicator of how a child is doing with an issue
than focusing on the problem behaviors and characteristics.

Kids can have a mountain of "problems" and still be doing great if
they are functioning well and enthusiastically some of the time in
some circumstances.

It's when nothing is working right that one needs to worry. There are
mental illnesses that accompany loss (and he experienced a loss of
control over his body) that are serious. Clinical depression is one.
It's pretty easily treated by is not good to leave untreated for long.

On the plus side, Abe is a very thoughtful, creative, senstive,
caring,
loving little boy. He's usually happy, and sometimes get a room full
of
people laughing. I love him beyond description and we are very
close, just
like two peas in a pod, being very affectionate with one another and
having
lots of fun (I like acting like a ten-year-old sometimes!). I would
give my
life for him, if it came to that - I'm sure many of you reading this
would
say the same about your own children!

Sounds like he's doing great. Probably little to worry about in the
mental health area, if your readings are too biased as a parent
smile.

Ricky's parents, "David" and "Jane", are Susan's older brother and
sister-in-law respectively. Neither I, Abe, or Susan have mentioned
what
happened to them. Ricky does not know that anyone else but Abe knows.

That leaves him free to do it to another child or children. He hasn't
been stopped.
-------------------------------
He simply has to be confronted about not FORCING other kids.


I have wondered how Ricky could have gotten such an idea into his
head... is
9 years of age a bit young for a boy to feel sexual desire?

No, of course it isn't. Some children are sexually active at toddler
age. They don't know what they are doing in the sense we know, but
they are responsive to sexual stimulation. It's perfectly normal, and
the amount of it covers a wide range, normally.

And if he felt
that desire, how on earth would he know about anal intercourse?

This brings up the possibility that another child or adult introduced
him to more mature eroticism. A child past 5 tends to NOT be
interested in waste excretion and the mechanics like the littler guys
are. They really do outgrow it.
----------------------------
Sure, sort of, but this wasn't excretory, it was sexual, and that is
still normal for the supposed pre-pubescent.


So, you have a problem. If he's been molested by someone you could be
walking into a hornet's nest. You would be better served to ask for
professional help.
-----------------------
If you're friendly enough with the child, you can simply ask him and
he'll tell you.


I do know
that he's the only child of two workaholic parents, who have given him
gazillions of toys and free and unfettered access to both the Internet
and
everything available on Cable TV. Abe thinks that maybe Ricky got the
anal
sex idea when he was unsupervised and watching pornography on TV, or
maybe
from a sexually explicit gay website.

Where children observe sexual activity, just like they might observe
making a cake, they may well try to do it themselves. That too, as all
know, is how children learn. And they have a nature based drive to
emulate what they see and to explore.

****here are my questions to you***

What should Susan and I do? Should we brng it up with Ricky's
parents?

No. That could well start a chain of events that you do not want to be
involved in. Denial usually comes first no matter the truth. If that
is sorted out and the parents believe you then you are faced with the
even more insidious problem of minimizing.

They will ask if your child was "hurt" and if not (and physically he
wasn't and he admitted to enjoying it) they will want to deescalate
the whole thing and say that it wasn't all that serious...we'll have a
talk with the boy, etc etc etc.

Or they will totally lose it and start screaming at and or beating
their son, who was, for him, doing something that was natural. He then
could be triggered into various reactions that would not be good for
him, or in the long run, good for other potentional victims.

Therapy for him may be, speaking in terms of civic responsibility,
more important than for your child. Healing wise, of course your child
comes first.
-------------------
Kids playing at sexuality doesn't require therapy.
You're over the top again.


Therapy, despite the occasional hysterical lies about it, doesn't
consist of making anyone feel guilty. It's about teaching the child
what is and isn't appropriate and correct in OUR society.
--------------
That's NOT what therapy is about, that's called "functionalism",
using psychology for social control, and it is disreputable as
psychology for the health of patients.


Any
deliberate guilting should warn you off right away, and switch
programs or counselors should that happen.

That goes for Ricky as well as Abe.

With Ricky?

No, not at this time. You aren't the person(s) to do it, and in fact
neither are his parents. He has broken the law.
--------------------------------
Not precisely, molestation is not even defined between pre-pubescent
children!! Again, you're blathering antisexual political correctness,
the WORST form of PC crap!


It needs sorting out.

Who should be present in the room?

CPS investigator. No one else.
--------------------------
Total garbage!!


The outcome likely won't be as bad as you think.
--------------------------
If you don't count having your child removed and harmed!!!


You are, however, at risk of losing your child to an investigation for
awhile because you waited so long to report.
-----------------------------
As I said, HARMED!!!


I would recommend a family attorney familiar with, and who can show
you successes with other families in similar circumstances, CPS and
the family courts in your area.
-----------------------------
I'd recommend you stay the **** away from the law, they always seem
to damage everyone they touch.


Is it likely that Abe is suffering any lasting effects from the abuse?

That is a possibility. How this is handled will determine some of
that. His own vulnerability, something you will have to assess
yourself, for another.
-------------------------
Your handling featuring CPS can assuredly harm hiom permanently!


Do
we need to get Abe in for counselling?

If you chose to follow up on the report to Child Protective Services
that will be an option that they will press you for. Some areas have
very good services for child victims of sexual assault.
----------------------
You really are ****ing crazy! Kids have been plating at butt****ing
since time immemorial! Let me guess, you grew up without siblings!??!


While this may be difficult at first to hear, children that are
forcefully sexually assaulted by strangers get over it more easily
that children that have been engaged with others more willingly.

Some children have no reaction the is observable. The fact that he DID
have negative responses to the sodomizing suggests his level of
vulnerability. I'd say yes, strongly, to therapy. Don't rush into that
though. See if you can find some referrences that satisfy YOU on who
should do that therapy.
------------------------------------
The ONLY negative reaction he appeared to have was related to the
expectation of shame by adults and harm from "God"!!! Both forms
of damage done BY PARENTS LONG BEFORE!! He EVEN said he felt
guilty because he ENJOYED IT!


Could this hamper him for the rest
of his life?

Highly unlikely if YOU maintain your calm, as you seem to be doing.
It's over reacting that causes the most dysfunction...not the actual
sexual acts.

I assume you are religious from Abe's statement about God. That puts
another spin on things. You have to deal with the values and beliefs
about sex that come from that source. I don't envy you.
--------------------
You need to tell him that whoever said that **** to him was WRONG ABOUT
GOD, and CAN'T BE TRUSTED TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD ANYMORE!


What should we say to Abe about what happened?

Children that feel their parents are protective, believe them, do not
minimize the effect on them, can be very sturdy and have a quicker
recovery with less long term or short term harm. It means so much when
they are believed and supported.

They then can hear the therapist and the parents when they say he was
not to blame. That's probably a large issue for him as he, out of
perfectly normal curiosity, willingly participated...from his point of
view.

I think we can safely assume that the other child was the aggressor
had at the least some psychological control through being the older
child...the younger want to be like the older so they do tag along,
don't they? smile

Keep everything light. Seriously. Don't go into the catastrophizing
"gee-aint't-it-awfuls" with the child. It isn't "awful." It's just one
of those things that happens that shouldn't like a kid stealing a
candy bar and needing to be taught the right and wrong of it. The
event was something wrong that happened, and that is all it is.
----------------
Garbage, kids are SUPPOSED to steal candy bars! They'd be DAMAGED
if they DIDN'T! You just have to make sure they know not to steal
them from STRANGERS who will HARM them!


Loading it up emotionally can tend to oversexualize it in the child's
mind, given our culture's great silliness over sexual behavior.

Have any of you had a similar experience with your own children?

I've worked under supervision in treatment with boys, for their social
and psychological dysfunctions. They were diagnosed as mentally ill.
All were sexually abused we estimated, by their acting out if not the
material gathered in intake interviews of parents and child.

Few were identified by self disclosure. Teen boys don't admit to being
sexually molested as a rule.

If so,
what did you do....

If anyone disclosed to me, and any of my collegues, that a child in
treatment with us was molested we reported it immediately to CPS.
--------------------------
That is a good reason for anyone in a helping profession to NEVER
become aligned with CPS or a situation of mandatory report!


what were the signs that your child had been truly
damaged...

It wasn't for us to assess that. We were not trained sexual abuse
investigators. They are much better at assessing levels of damage.
------------------------
Garbage.


what would you suggest Susan and I do?

What I've said so far.

Please share what you
can, and please take precautions of anonymity if you wish!

I always do. The risks of attack by internet bugaloos is very high.
Both virtually by electronic means, and personally in the real world.

I do know that it's normal for some children to be more introverted
than
others, and also that it's normal for young children to "play doctor"
(heck,
I did it myself at around that age... I was just curious, that's
all...)
when they're learning about their bodies. But intercourse seems a bit
extreme... or *that* a reasonable part of "playing doctor"?

It does suggest some exposure to more eroticised behavior than just
curiousity, but that isn't something that can be generalized. It is a
incident by incident assessment that matters.
-----------------
Pure nonsense, kids do that all the time.


I would be interested in hearing from ANYONE that is involved with
children;
not just parents... so if you're a psychologist, psychiatrist, family
doctor, youth worker, teacher, counsellor, clergy-person, or
whatever...
PLEASE share your thoughts!!

If you'd rather not post your reply to the newsgroup, please email me
at
...

blessings to all of you for reading my rather long posting. I wish
you all
good health and happiness.

Sincerely,

There are two main issues to consider:

1. Helping your son heal. (seems to be underway)

2. The very real danger that Ricky poses to other children if he isn't
stopped.

Humans tend to, when they experience sexual feelings, want to not only
repeat them but to escalate the activity, if you get my drift.

I know I do. Or so my wife claims. smile

Both boys are normal human beings as far as can be determined from
your post. They experimented. It felt good. They went a two steps
beyond what is legally acceptable and that should express also the
social mores that are and are not acceptable.
-------------------
They're too young for that, you blithering idiot! It's NOT THEIR
BUSINESS to know all that, and WASN'T!


Alex Trepanier

The decision, of course, is entirely yours, Alex.

And I do hope you aren't drilling out circles into our skulls to get
to our brains.

Kane
------------------
That seems to be the level of your asinine suggestions.
Steve