Can Doan provide Alina with the Embry study? was Can Kane provide Jerry with the Embry study?

On 6 Apr 2004 08:01:47 -0700, (Alina) wrote:

(Kane) wrote in message . com...

I'll be interested to see your take on the study. It's quite old,
25
years or more.

But old doesn't mean outdated, does it?

There is considerable material since. Survey's of the available
research are around.

http://tinyurl.com/2mtk8

Rather a lot of them.

Well, you can always e-mail. Your copy of the study should be
showing
up in your mail box soon, if Doan has it to e-mail to you.

Oh, but you know that isn't quite viable either :-), due to it's
size.

I do? I forget if I mentioned the size in the ng. Unless it were
loaded with graphics a text attachment wouldn't be very large.

(...) obvious physical advantage) to repress a behaviour in the
child. Not
to teach him, but to train him.

Well, there are those that take a strictly "training" approach to
child rearing.

Yes, but there are different ways to "train". There's the abusive,
"don't do 'cause I'll hurt you" way, and then there's the "that's a
good boy, here's a treat" way (talking about animals here). Both
approaches are also apllicable on children, I believe it's called
negative and positive reinforcement. So why go negative when you can
do positive?

The arguement that amuses me the most is the one that says, "because
the world is that way and the child must learn that." As though there
is any shortage of negative experiences for children in their day to
day life, right from birth on.

Having both "trained" animals and "taught" children I found that
the
gentle principles of the way I taught were not only applicable to
animal training that I went to gentle methods very early on with
both,
of course.

Exaclty what I meant.

Not far from my own views.

So what are your own views?

Open google newsgroups in your browser. Open alt.parenting.spanking.
Open any message with my name on it. Click on my name in the address
field, and an archive of every post of mine will come up.

Basically I don't find punishment of any kind very useful. At least
not deliberately applied punishment. Children know the difference
between intended harm and natural human reactions.

The former confuses and frightens them, the latter they are curious
about, even if it might frighten them.

Were you raised in a CP using family? How
did you come to your present postion on this issue?

Dad was a spanker, and very inconsistent. He would react in different
ways to the same thing on different days, I still don't know what
that
depended on. Mom was a non-spanker, she talked with (not just "to) us
a lot and explained, and listened a lot. She did things with us,
taught us to cooperate in the house, gave us options (thing to do as
opposed to things she didn't want us to do).

I have much more memories of mom than I have of dad. And nicer
feelings towards her, too.

Who do you think you learned the most important lessons from?

Also, I have a profound respect for *people*, no matter the age.

Also, I have worked with children, and know first hand that they
think
and understand a lot more than some spankers are willing to believe.

Well, not according to the spankers that have come here to "debate."

Although just when they claim that they have to "teach" children they
describe some motive of the child they must curb that children cannot
have enough knowledge or development to even have such a motive.

Also, I would hate to hurt my child :-)

They don't mind doing that. They seem to think that pain is a great
teacher...forgetting that life has ample random exposure to pain for
we humans to suffice for all the lessons pain can teach.

Instead they take areas were pain is a very poor teacher, and in fact
a diversion, and apply pain to those. Kind of dumb.

Have you read Dodson? If so, what do you think?

Oh yes. Frankly his methods if used on an animal (which he has done
without witnesses apparently) would result in an arrest and charge
of
animal abuse and cruelty. He has a social disease. It's the one
that
assumes humans are evil by nature, and their behaviors, if you
don't
like those behaviors, are evil by intent.

Dobson's isn't much of a way to view the world, is it?

Um, I think we are talking about different persons here. I meant
DoDson, Dr. Fitzhugh Dodson.

Oh, I missed without the first name. We have so often discuss James
Dobson here that I didn't notice your spelling.

That, according to Droany, constitutes a "lie" on my part.

I don't know if he still lives. Was a
psychologist and wrote books about parenting, mom bought me one: "How
to parent". He supports non coersive parenting a lot, using
techniques
such as positive reinforcement, reflecting the child's feelings,
providing a child secure environment, etc.. He is an oldie (mom read
him while raising ME), but still very interesting.

Now, Dr. Dodson says there are only 2 cases in which it's ok to spank
a child: one, when you are absolutley "fed up" and loose control. He
says it is just as important for an adult than it is for a child to
vent and express feelings, and you can always tell the child you're
sorry later. I disagree with him, while it is no doubt important to
be
able to express feelings, I think we as adults must have enough
control on our actions (moreso if that is what we intend to teach the
child to do), and if we know we don't have such control, then we
should seek help in order to aquire it.

The second case in which Dodson says it's ok to spank, is when you
can't let natural consecuences of his actions teach him, because the
child's physical integrity would be in danger. Example: to prevent
him
from running into the street. I would love to disagree with him on
that one too, and that is where my interest on the Embry study
originated.

Alina, on the off chance that I'm being scammed, a common occurance
when folks try to debate honestly with Doan, (he thinks "play" is
debate apparently) I request you ask him for the study.

If he will email it to you I have two simple questions I'd like to ask
that will establish if it is the same study I have, or simply some
commentary by others, or even just a summary by Embry.

Would you be willing to do that?

Thanks in advance.

If it turns out to not be the study, or after a reasonable time he
doesn't provide anything, I'll be happy then to supply you with the
one I have...the complete study report on outcomes and methodology.

Alina.

Regards,

Kane