Spanking and perceptions of frequency in China.

Let's do a history lesson, shall we then?

Note the dates please.





13. Doan
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Hide options Oct 9 2004, 6:25 am
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking
From: Doan
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 07:25:12 -0700
Local: Sat, Oct 9 2004 6:25 am
Subject: Kane0 caught lying again High rates of violence among
youth-
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On 8 Oct 2004, kane wrote:

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 01:52:39 GMT, Pangur Ban
wrote:

Chris C. wrote:
Can we dialogue?...

Often on this newsgroup we discuss (or should I say fail to
discuss)
the high rate of youth violence and how it has increased over the
decades here in the U.S. (as families move often from structured
parenting praxis to permissive or non-parenting practices--See Ryan
and Cooper, 2004 for an introductory discussion on the average time
spent with our kids). Even if we make comparisons across cultures
--our rate of youth violence is much higher than other lesser
developed countries with more accepted traditional parenting praxis
and family roles.

Isn't another factor the breaking of extended
families?

Well, Ms Pangur, that could be. The breaking down of traditional
practices (praxis) can be a factor in the loss of extended family, but
I've certainly seen changes in child rearing practices where extended
family is NOT disrupted, as in China, more especially Taiwan, which
has a thorough mix of traditional and non-traditional practices,
generally.

The(y) still, regardless of lifestyle, tend to dote on their male child
(and not just a little on the females for that matter) and spoil them,
in the best sense, of course.

Kane comments on spanking in Chinese families ... not about schools as
he tries to argue...the usual putting words in another's mouth, or
keyboard as it we

Spanking is a much more rare occurance there.

Doan responds:
LOL! If you're gonna lie, at least be smart about it! Check this
out.
[[[ I was not lying. I have Chinese relatives and extensive numbers of
friend ship, and have lived IN Chinese culture IN Chinese communities.
Read on. ]]]


China Post, Taipei, 2 April 2004
Spanking goes on in schools despite law
Taipei, The China Post Staff

Corporal punishment, forbidden by the Ministry of Education, goes on
in
elementary and junior high schools across Taiwan, according to a
survey
released by the Humanistic Education Foundation yesterday.

Altogether 1,311 students in 62 junior high schools and 159 primary
schools were polled.

Spanking and other forms of corporal punishment were reported in nine
out
of every ten schools surveyed.

Altogether 93.5 percent of the schools visited reported corporal
punishment, the survey shows.

A 70 percent majority of students have been given corporal punishment
so
far in the current school year.

The foundation defines corporal punishment as "punishment that causes
physical pain on the body or psychological pain through bodily
control."

Aside from spanking, forms of corporal punishment as defined by the
foundation include a painful posture imposed on students, an increase
of
schoolwork, labor service, mutual slappings, fining, tagging, shaven
heads
and ridiculings in public.

By far, spanking is the most popular form of corporal punishment, the
study indicates. A total of 72 percent of the respondents said they
saw
teachers spank students.

Only 11 percent said they never saw their teachers mete out any
corporal
punishment.

Half of the causes for corporal punishment was disobedience. Other
causes
include poor schoolwork (35 percent) and group punishment (20
percent).

About 14 percent of the respondents said teachers demanded that their
parents agree to corporal punishment.

One third of the respondents, 33 percent, said they ought to be
punished
for disobedience.

Another 29 percent said they were afraid of corporal punishment. Still
another 20 percent want to avenge themselves on the teachers. Only 13
percent believe teachers punished them to give vent to their
frustration.
Asked if they would spank their students when they became teachers, 65
percent of the respondents replied they would.

"That indicates," a foundation spokesman said, "they would continue
the
tradition of not sparing the rod to spoil the child."

He urged the Ministry of Education to outlaw corporal punishment. "We
need
legislation to outlaw it once and for all," he said.

The Ministry of Education said the law on teaching now requires school
authorities to deal with corporal punishment.

"The schools, parents and students have to agree on a set of
disciplinary
regulations, which should be satisfactory to all," said Ho Chin-tsai,
a
Ministry of Education student discipline specialist.

But, Ho added, the Ministry of Education is opposed to any form of
corporal punishment.

Doan
PS: So much for your "formidable research skill"! :-)
.....

Well, given that I was not researching or commenting on schools, Mr.
Doan is either very much mistaken, or attempting to mislead. If the
latter, he has done what he claims he does not do...lie.

The truth about CP in Chinese FAMILIES, as per the research...NOT
Media reports as he offered above is that in comparison they are low
in a survey of six countries, lowest and second lowest on these
surveys?

"In China, as in other countries, previous generations
of parents appear to have used more harsh and
power-assertive strategies, including physical discipline
(e.g., Ho, 1986), than do parents in the present
generation. In contrast to early work, recent studies
suggest that harsh parenting is consistently low with
Chinese parents (Chang, Lansford, Schwartz, &
Farver, 2004; Chang, McBride-Chang, Stewart, & Au,
2003; Chang, Schwartz, Dodge, & McBride-Chang,
2003; Tao, Wang, Wang, & Dong, 1998). Furthermore,
although 97% of doctors and nurses surveyed at
eight hospitals in Eastern China believed that physical
discipline was widely used by Chinese parents,
76% of these respondents indicated that they personally
disapproved of using physical discipline
(Hesketh, Hong, & Lynch, 2000). Thus, we expected
physical discipline to be less normative in China
than in Kenya, India, and the Philippines."

...and what did they find related to their expectations when they did
the surveys with Chinese families?

"As shown in Figure 2, the rank order (from low to
high) of how often mothers reported using physical
discipline was Thailand, China, the Philippines, Italy,
India, and Kenya. Figure 3 shows that the rank
order (from low to high) of mothers’ perceptions of
how often other parents use physical discipline was
China, Thailand, India, the Philippines, Kenya, and
Italy. Figure 4 shows that the rank order (from low to
high) of children’s perceptions of how often other
children’s parents use physical discipline was Thailand,
the Philippines, China, India, Kenya, and Italy."

China ranks second lowest in reported use, and lowest in perception by
mothers of other's use in China. And even the children in China ranked
the parents of other children with a second place ranking.

My claim about FAMILIES in China stands.

Doan may wish to reveal where this information comes from, as I'm sure
he knows, and I'll wait for his response. If he does not give the
source, I will.

But I'll bet the reader, if they've been following along, can figure
it out.

I have found over the years, that despite Doan's claim of not lying,
that indeed he has, as in this instance, 'mislead' by diversion...as
in this example above.

From my *claim* about *families* to his diverting to a phony rebuttal
by using SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS from a media, and then he derides my
information clearly stated as observation and opinion, pretends I'm
referring to "research," where I have made NO citations, and ends with
a personal attack. Interesting, eh?

What kind of "debate," is that, I wonder.

How much more of this kind of fallacious argument does Doan do?

How many years of time do you have to read them?

You can keep count. I no longer can, from disabling laughter.

chuckle

Kane

[[[ See my two corrections at *** and **** ]]]


Let's do a history lesson, shall we then?

Note the dates please.


13. Doan
View profile
Hide options Oct 9 2004, 6:25 am
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking
From: Doan
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 07:25:12 -0700
Local: Sat, Oct 9 2004 6:25 am
Subject: Kane0 caught lying again High rates of violence among
youth-
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original
| Report this message | Find messages by this author
On 8 Oct 2004, kane wrote:

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 01:52:39 GMT, Pangur Ban
wrote:

Chris C. wrote:
Can we dialogue?...

Often on this newsgroup we discuss (or should I say fail to
discuss)
the high rate of youth violence and how it has increased over the
decades here in the U.S. (as families move often from structured
parenting praxis to permissive or non-parenting practices--See Ryan
and Cooper, 2004 for an introductory discussion on the average time
spent with our kids). Even if we make comparisons across cultures
--our rate of youth violence is much higher than other lesser
developed countries with more accepted traditional parenting praxis
and family roles.

Isn't another factor the breaking of extended
families?

Well, Ms Pangur, that could be. The breaking down of traditional
practices (praxis) can be a factor in the loss of extended family, but
I've certainly seen changes in child rearing practices where extended
family is NOT disrupted, as in China, more especially Taiwan, which
has a thorough mix of traditional and non-traditional practices,
generally.

The(y) still, regardless of lifestyle, tend to dote on their male child
(and not just a little on the females for that matter) and spoil them,
in the best sense, of course.

Kane comments on spanking in Chinese families ... not about schools as
***Doan tries to argue...the usual putting words in another's mouth,
or keyboard as it we

Spanking is a much more rare occurance there.

Doan responds:
LOL! If you're gonna lie, at least be smart about it! Check this
out.
[[[ I was not lying. I have Chinese relatives and extensive numbers of
friend ship, and have lived IN Chinese culture IN Chinese communities.
Read on. ]]]


China Post, Taipei, 2 April 2004
Spanking goes on in schools despite law
Taipei, The China Post Staff

Corporal punishment, forbidden by the Ministry of Education, goes on
in
elementary and junior high schools across Taiwan, according to a
survey
released by the Humanistic Education Foundation yesterday.

Altogether 1,311 students in 62 junior high schools and 159 primary
schools were polled.

Spanking and other forms of corporal punishment were reported in nine
out
of every ten schools surveyed.

Altogether 93.5 percent of the schools visited reported corporal
punishment, the survey shows.

A 70 percent majority of students have been given corporal punishment
so
far in the current school year.

The foundation defines corporal punishment as "punishment that causes
physical pain on the body or psychological pain through bodily
control."

Aside from spanking, forms of corporal punishment as defined by the
foundation include a painful posture imposed on students, an increase
of
schoolwork, labor service, mutual slappings, fining, tagging, shaven
heads
and ridiculings in public.

By far, spanking is the most popular form of corporal punishment, the
study indicates. A total of 72 percent of the respondents said they
saw
teachers spank students.

Only 11 percent said they never saw their teachers mete out any
corporal
punishment.

Half of the causes for corporal punishment was disobedience. Other
causes
include poor schoolwork (35 percent) and group punishment (20
percent).

About 14 percent of the respondents said teachers demanded that their
parents agree to corporal punishment.

One third of the respondents, 33 percent, said they ought to be
punished
for disobedience.

Another 29 percent said they were afraid of corporal punishment. Still
another 20 percent want to avenge themselves on the teachers. Only 13
percent believe teachers punished them to give vent to their
frustration.
Asked if they would spank their students when they became teachers, 65
percent of the respondents replied they would.

"That indicates," a foundation spokesman said, "they would continue
the
tradition of not sparing the rod to spoil the child."

He urged the Ministry of Education to outlaw corporal punishment. "We
need
legislation to outlaw it once and for all," he said.

The Ministry of Education said the law on teaching now requires school
authorities to deal with corporal punishment.

"The schools, parents and students have to agree on a set of
disciplinary
regulations, which should be satisfactory to all," said Ho Chin-tsai,
a
Ministry of Education student discipline specialist.

But, Ho added, the Ministry of Education is opposed to any form of
corporal punishment.

Doan
PS: So much for your "formidable research skill"! :-)
.....

Well, given that I was not researching or commenting on schools, Mr.
Doan is either very much mistaken, or attempting to mislead. If the
latter, he has done what he claims he does not do...lie.

The truth about CP in Chinese FAMILIES, as per the research...NOT
Media reports as he offered above is that in comparison they are low
in a survey of six countries, lowest and second lowest on these
surveys?

"In China, as in other countries, previous generations
of parents appear to have used more harsh and
power-assertive strategies, including physical discipline
(e.g., Ho, 1986), than do parents in the present
generation. In contrast to early work, recent studies
suggest that harsh parenting is consistently low with
Chinese parents (Chang, Lansford, Schwartz, &
Farver, 2004; Chang, McBride-Chang, Stewart, & Au,
2003; Chang, Schwartz, Dodge, & McBride-Chang,
2003; Tao, Wang, Wang, & Dong, 1998). Furthermore,
although 97% of doctors and nurses surveyed at
eight hospitals in Eastern China believed that physical
discipline was widely used by Chinese parents,
76% of these respondents indicated that they personally
disapproved of using physical discipline
(Hesketh, Hong, & Lynch, 2000). Thus, we expected
physical discipline to be less normative in China
than in Kenya, India, and the Philippines."

...and what did they find related to their expectations when they did
the surveys with Chinese families?

"As shown in Figure 2, the rank order (from low to
high) of how often mothers reported using physical
discipline was Thailand, China, the Philippines, Italy,
India, and Kenya. Figure 3 shows that the rank
order (from low to high) of mothers’ perceptions of
how often other parents use physical discipline was
China, Thailand, India, the Philippines, Kenya, and
Italy. Figure 4 shows that the rank order (from low to
high) of children’s perceptions of how often other
children’s parents use physical discipline was Thailand,
the Philippines, China, India, Kenya, and Italy."

China ranks second lowest in reported use, and lowest in perception by
mothers of other's use in China. And even the children in China ranked
the parents of other children with a **** third place ranking.

My claim about FAMILIES in China stands.

Doan may wish to reveal where this information comes from, as I'm sure
he knows, and I'll wait for his response. If he does not give the
source, I will.

But I'll bet the reader, if they've been following along, can figure
it out.

I have found over the years, that despite Doan's claim of not lying,
that indeed he has, as in this instance, 'mislead' by diversion...as
in this example above.

From my *claim* about *families* to his diverting to a phony rebuttal
by using SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS from a media, and then he derides my
information clearly stated as observation and opinion, pretends I'm
referring to "research," where I have made NO citations, and ends with
a personal attack. Interesting, eh?

What kind of "debate," is that, I wonder.

How much more of this kind of fallacious argument does Doan do?

How many years of time do you have to read them?

You can keep count. I no longer can, from disabling laughter.

chuckle

Kane