Parents don't see a crisis over science and math

http://groups.google.com/group/mi.mi...f4c3ea97566c60

Parents are often contradictory like this. They expect miracles from
science teachers, but then want to prevent them from teaching actual
science because it offends thier personal ideas.

In article Z7oLf.65660$B94.55038@pd7tw3no, jules
wrote:

How do you all deal with it when your child comes home from school having
been taught things that are simply wrong?

My son's teacher is great, and I can't completely blame her because the
science test she used was obviously developed by some curriculum distributor
of some kind, and I know it's hard to have all the answers when teaching all
subjects to grade three, but...

They had a science test on magnets, and one of the tasks was to "glue the
pictures of things that are attracted to magnets onto the picture of the
magnet, and glue the things that aren't attracted to magnets beside the
picture of the magnet." To get the problem right they had to glue all METAL
objects to the magnet, completely ignoring the fact that only metal that
contains at least some iron is magnetic. My son got some of the answers
wrong because he has magnets at home, and knows that many metalic objects
aren't magnetic. When he complained to the teacher that none of the keys he
actually tried were magnetic, she simply replied, "it's metal." I'm not
really worried about him losing a mark, but shouldn't they be being taught
that NOT all metals are magnetic?

On the other hand, I don't want to offend the teacher by questioning her
authority...

BTDT

The teacher may actually not KNOW that not all metals are atttracted to
magnets. Some elementary school teachers are very lacking in their
science education. If that's the case (and, given her answer, I'm
guessing it is) there probably isn't much you can do. You could go in
to explain it to her -- but that's real hard to do without making her
defensive.

If you cared about the grade, it would be worth challenging, but you say
you don't. Yes, the other kids are getting bad information. It won't
be the last time. I sometimes had fun with some of this, as did DH --
but there were times when it got discouraging. (DH is a scientist, and
some of the stuff the kids came home with made him laugh -- others made
him cringe.) For a great read on how a different subject gets taught
badly (American history), read, "Lies My Teacher Told Me".

When I was in high school, I pointed out to one teacher that the text
book (a VERY old one) in our psychology class had some information that
had since been proven wrong -- I'd just read an article in Psychology
Today about it. He said he couldn't keep up with all the professional
journals (Psychology Today?) , and we would just learn what was in the
text book. (The benefit of small town living: when I told my Mom, she
just laughed and said the only reason that particular guy graduated from
college was that her brother wrote most of his papers for him. . . and
not to worry about it. So on the test I wrote: "This is the answer you
want. But it's wrong.")

Your son is very young, so it's harder for him. You don't want to give
the impression that the teacher is an idiot or not to be respected.
However, you CAN look at this as a GREAT opportunity for him to learn
not believe everything he's told -- to understand that just because
someone is in a position of authority, it doesn't mean they have all the
right answers. This is the beginning of the BEST sort of education:
don't believe everthing you hear.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"jules" wrote in message
news:Z7oLf.65660$B94.55038@pd7tw3no...
How do you all deal with it when your child comes home from school having
been taught things that are simply wrong?

My son's teacher is great, and I can't completely blame her because the
science test she used was obviously developed by some curriculum
distributor of some kind, and I know it's hard to have all the answers
when teaching all subjects to grade three, but...

They had a science test on magnets, and one of the tasks was to "glue the
pictures of things that are attracted to magnets onto the picture of the
magnet, and glue the things that aren't attracted to magnets beside the
picture of the magnet." To get the problem right they had to glue all
METAL objects to the magnet, completely ignoring the fact that only metal
that contains at least some iron is magnetic. My son got some of the
answers wrong because he has magnets at home, and knows that many metalic
objects aren't magnetic. When he complained to the teacher that none of
the keys he actually tried were magnetic, she simply replied, "it's
metal." I'm not really worried about him losing a mark, but shouldn't
they be being taught that NOT all metals are magnetic?

On the other hand, I don't want to offend the teacher by questioning her
authority...

I don't think you should feel bad about questioning her
authority. What you should question is the age appro-
priateness of your information. We often teach things
very simplistically to young children, and then the infor-
mation gets refined as they get older. I don't think there
is anything wrong with teaching the youngest children that
metal is magnetic and plastic and wood are not.

I do think, however, that it's good to expand on what
they teach at school, especially if it's an area that you or
your child has special interest in. And I think the teacher
was wrong to mark your son wrong when he explained
his reasoning. I think instead it would have been a good
opportunity for her to explore the subject a little more
deeply with the class.

Bizby

In article ,
dragonlady says...

In article Z7oLf.65660$B94.55038@pd7tw3no, jules
wrote:

How do you all deal with it when your child comes home from school having
been taught things that are simply wrong?

My son's teacher is great, and I can't completely blame her because the
science test she used was obviously developed by some curriculum distributor
of some kind, and I know it's hard to have all the answers when teaching all
subjects to grade three, but...

They had a science test on magnets, and one of the tasks was to "glue the
pictures of things that are attracted to magnets onto the picture of the
magnet, and glue the things that aren't attracted to magnets beside the
picture of the magnet." To get the problem right they had to glue all METAL
objects to the magnet, completely ignoring the fact that only metal that
contains at least some iron is magnetic.

Gee, glad *neither* of you teach *my* kid about ferromagnetic materials!

Banty (cobalt, nickel....)

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:35:21 GMT, jules wrote:
How do you all deal with it when your child comes home from school having been taught things that are simply wrong?

My son's teacher is great, and I can't completely blame her because the science test she used was obviously developed by some curriculum distributor of some kind, and I know it's hard to have all the answers when teaching all subjects to grade three, but...

They had a science test on magnets, and one of the tasks was to "glue the pictures of things that are attracted to magnets onto the picture of the magnet, and glue the things that aren't attracted to magnets beside the picture of the magnet." To get the problem right they had to glue all METAL objects to the magnet, completely ignoring the fact that only metal that contains at least some iron is magnetic. My son got some of the answers wrong because he has magnets at home, and knows that many metalic objects aren't magnetic. When he complained to the teacher that none of the keys he actually tried were magnetic, she simply replied, "it's metal." I'm not really worried about him losing a mark, but shouldn't they be being taught that NOT all metals are magnetic?


Of course they should be taught that all metals are not magnetic. Why would you want
anything else?

On the other hand, I don't want to offend the teacher by questioning her authority...

The teacher is obviously ignorant. Is is better to have the teacher mis-inform a
generation of kids, just to avoid offending the teacher?

Why not send your son to school with a magnet and a piece of aluminum, and ask him
to show the teacher what happens when you put them together? And if the teacher
still refuses to believe her own eyes, then if I were you, I would seriously
consider putting my child elsewhere - who knows what else he's being taught that
you don't know about? At the very least, someone who isn't capable of understanding
experimental methods and understanding the results is absolutely not qualified
to teach science in any way, shape, or form, especially to impressionable children.

This is one of my pet peeves about Elementary school... I know several Elementary
school teachers personally, and more who are aquaintances. The amount of actual
science they they know in total is almost literally exceeded by an average 7th grader.
Math knowledge seems to be a close second in that respect, for whatever reason.

- Rich

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:31:54 +0000, Dave {Reply Address in.Sig} wrote:
Banty wrote:
In article ,
dragonlady says...
In article Z7oLf.65660$B94.55038@pd7tw3no, jules
wrote:

How do you all deal with it when your child comes home from school having
been taught things that are simply wrong?

My son's teacher is great, and I can't completely blame her because the
science test she used was obviously developed by some curriculum distributor
of some kind, and I know it's hard to have all the answers when teaching all
subjects to grade three, but...

They had a science test on magnets, and one of the tasks was to "glue the
pictures of things that are attracted to magnets onto the picture of the
magnet, and glue the things that aren't attracted to magnets beside the
picture of the magnet." To get the problem right they had to glue all METAL
objects to the magnet, completely ignoring the fact that only metal that
contains at least some iron is magnetic.

Gee, glad *neither* of you teach *my* kid about ferromagnetic materials!

Banty (cobalt, nickel....)

Don't forget the rare-earth ones as well.


Carbon aerogel, anyone?

- Rich

In general, this seems like a bad activity to be doing with paper anyway-it
would seem better to give children a wide range of objects, a magnet, and
let them have at it. If you wanted the paste and glue activity, you could
even give the kids the picture of a magnet and of the different objects, and
let them record their results.

I suspect the answer is that the teacher is teaching from the teacher's
manual given by the district and has (as so many programs expect you to do)
unplugged her brain. The fact is that if the state test expects children to
group objects as magnetic/non-magnetic based on metal content, and the
teacher teaches it correctly, but not the way it is on the test, she'll end
up paying when her students get the answer incorrect as intended by the
publisher. And unfortunately, primary school science is one area where facts
get short shrift at times. (I recall my parents raising all kinds of heck
over a science test I'd failed in 5th grade-can't remember the question, but
I do remember my chemistry professor and microbiologist mother's reaction to
what was considered a "correct" answer-and, more to the point, what wasn't).

--
Donna DeVore Metler
Orff Music Specialist/Kindermusik
Mother to Angel Brian Anthony 1/1/2002, 22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP
And Allison Joy, 11/25/04 (35 weeks, PIH, Pre-term labor)

In article ,
"Donna Metler" wrote:

(I recall my parents raising all kinds of heck
over a science test I'd failed in 5th grade-can't remember the question, but
I do remember my chemistry professor and microbiologist mother's reaction to
what was considered a "correct" answer-and, more to the point, what wasn't).

The one I remember my father getting apopletic about was some sort of
critical-thinking test. The question was what to do if you got lost in
the woods -- and the RIGHT answer was to climb a tree to see if you
could see which way to go.

Now, my father spent many, many volunteer hours searching for people who
got lost in the woods (northern Minnesota/northern Wisconsin), and the
first thing he ever taught us was what to do if we got lost: hug a
tree. Stay put. Don't move. Listen. Holler, maybe. But stay where
you are so the rescue workers can find you.

And for god's sake don't do something stupid that could get you hurt as
well as lost!

I honestly thought he was going to stroke out on that one...

My science education isn't awful for a non-scientist, but DH IS a
scientist (his actual title at work: Staff Scientist), and when the
kids brought home stuff that was stupid and wrong he just corrected it,
and told them why it was wrong, but at some point we gave up expecting
their elementary school science education to be accurate.

With the assignment under discussion here, if they really wanted a
cut-and-paste exercise that was simple AND accurate, they should have
only had things that were metalic AND magnetic, and things that were
clearly NOT -- even if they want to give simple but not quite accurate
"first approximations" to a younger child, they still need to have an
exercise that has been structured so a clearly WRONG answer isn't marked
"right". (Though magnetism is one of those things that OUGHT to be
hands-on science. It too easy to do it right for there to be any excuse
for NOT doing it right. I like the idea of combining the cut-and-paste
with real experimentation.)

But I don't expect this to improve any time in the future.

My kids did go to one elementary school with a pretty good science
program, but the principal was a former science teacher, who said he
went into teaching science because, propoerly done, teaching science is
subversive.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

dragonlady wrote:

BTDT

The teacher may actually not KNOW that not all metals are atttracted to
magnets. Some elementary school teachers are very lacking in their
science education. If that's the case (and, given her answer, I'm
guessing it is) there probably isn't much you can do. You could go in
to explain it to her -- but that's real hard to do without making her
defensive.

To the OP: I would be inclined to send a not to the teacher explaining
the problem and how you dealt with it at home. Invite her to call you
if she wants to discuss it further - she probably won't but that way
you are getting your point across and opeining thee dorr for discourse.


When I was in high school, I pointed out to one teacher that the text
book (a VERY old one) in our psychology class had some information that
had since been proven wrong -- I'd just read an article in Psychology
Today about it. He said he couldn't keep up with all the professional
journals (Psychology Today?) , and we would just learn what was in the
text book. (The benefit of small town living: when I told my Mom, she
just laughed and said the only reason that particular guy graduated from
college was that her brother wrote most of his papers for him. . . and
not to worry about it. So on the test I wrote: "This is the answer you
want. But it's wrong.")

I did that many times in High School and it ****ed off the the
teachers. Sometimes it's better to just write the wrong answer and be
done with it.



Your son is very young, so it's harder for him. You don't want to give
the impression that the teacher is an idiot or not to be respected.
However, you CAN look at this as a GREAT opportunity for him to learn
not believe everything he's told -- to understand that just because
someone is in a position of authority, it doesn't mean they have all the
right answers. This is the beginning of the BEST sort of education:
don't believe everthing you hear.

Yep.

-L.