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  #1  
Old January 29th 06, 05:08 AM
beccafromlalaland beccafromlalaland is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by ParentingBanter: Dec 2005
Posts: 108
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant

We should discuss socioeconomic status as a mitigating factor in the use of CP. And how to address that issue.

Or is that too current and real for you?
__________________
Becca

Momma to two boys

Big Guy 3/02
and

Wuvy-Buv 8/05
  #2  
Old January 29th 06, 05:10 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


beccafromlalaland wrote:
We should discuss socioeconomic status as a mitigating factor in the use
of CP. And how to address that issue.


Who is "we?"

Or is that too current and real for you?


Are you addressing me, or the group?

--
beccafromlalaland


I've no problem addressing that issue. The answers are probably far out
of reach for most in this group though. Alan Greenspan does not post
here.

The more immediate and more accessible issues would have the most
immediate impact pun intended on the spanking issue.

I'm not here, though I can't speak for others, say Doan, to idly
distract and misdirect folks.

To me this is a practical matter of mitigating children's daily pain
and fear.

I'd be, when we are through discussing "socioeconomic status," going
back to the more proximate issues.

How to change attitude and long held beliefs seems more important to
me. While that's no easy job, it seems more accessible than how to
change socioeconomic status and hope that that has an effect on
spanking.

I don't think there's an appreciable drop in spanking rates until you
reach very high levels of income.

Now if you wanted to deal with abusive discipline, that could be
factored in with CPS data from the USDHS and you could find
socioeconomic influences.

I think it's time we welcomed discussion on what a law should look like
that bans spanking.

While I disagree with you that a 25 year old study is outdated (we use
the ancient research of others in current science and industry
commonly...take a class in electrical engineering for instance) I do
agree that there is "current" things to look at.

And what could be more current than a new law, either a state law for
each state, or though less my preference, a single federal law.

What should be in such a spanking or CP ban law?

But feel free to explore "socioeconomic status as a mitigating factor
in the use
of CP. And how to address that issue."

If I'm interested I'll be happy to contribute in whatever way I can.

Kane

  #3  
Old January 29th 06, 09:57 PM
beccafromlalaland beccafromlalaland is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by ParentingBanter: Dec 2005
Posts: 108
Default

Why for instance in America are parenting classes only available to parents after the fact. After they have been investigated for child abuse, after their children have been placed in foster care when the parents are either desperate to get their kids, or so angry that they refuse to attend parenting workshops. I know in my state parenting classes are available but certainly not encouraged for at risk parents (young parents,families on assistance, single parents, parents who grew up in abusive households)

I think before we can even consider a non-spanking law we need to address the issues of these at risk parents, get them into parenting classes, give them mentors, teach them appropriate discipline strategies. Give them a support network so when they feel overwhelmed with the responsibilities of parenthood they can get help BEFORE there is a problem.
__________________
Becca

Momma to two boys

Big Guy 3/02
and

Wuvy-Buv 8/05
  #4  
Old January 30th 06, 02:16 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


beccafromlalaland wrote:
Why for instance in America are parenting classes only available to
parents after the fact.


There is no such limit. Anyone wishing to take a parenting class can
find them easily. Health departments, parks and recreation, mental
health departments, some schools, private instructors are all available.

In fact, you can even find on-line classes.

http://tinyurl.com/dastb

After they have been investigated for child
abuse, after their children have been placed in foster care when the
parents are either desperate to get their kids, or so angry that they
refuse to attend parenting workshops.


How would you get them to go to parenting classes until they were
compelled to?

The classes are everywhere. They are even free in some places.

http://tinyurl.com/7fzqp

I know in my state parenting
classes are available but certainly not encouraged for at risk parents
(young parents,families on assistance, single parents, parents who grew
up in abusive households)


How are they not encouraged? You mean actively discouraged, or not
publicized enough?

I think before we can even consider a non-spanking law we need to
address the issues of these at risk parents, get them into parenting
classes, give them mentors, teach them appropriate discipline
strategies. Give them a support network so when they feel overwhelmed
with the responsibilities of parenthood they can get help BEFORE there
is a problem.


Two problems, I think.

One is that you cannot compel them to attend unless they have CPS
intervention going on. It would be civil rights violation. I've argued
with state legislators over this when one governor or another proposed
"early intervention" with new mothers in geographical areas considered
high risk, or with behaviors considered high risk. They understood
rather easily when I pointed out the BOR to them from the Constitution.

One cannot compel another's actions without due cause. And that has to
be addressed with some action. The only legal action would be child
protection statutes.

Thus we come around again to the law.

Two, money.

Who will provide this support network?

Churches, local interest groups, even the local health department
schedules a variety of things to get young parents involved, especially
new mothers, even providing child care during the meetings.

The problem is that the families that are targetted for this help can
refuse to respond, or simply not be interested, and that is certainly
their right. I do not support compelled services unless the level of
problem has reached a proportion that has involved child protection
services by the state.

And while at one time such programs could access hospital records for
new births, and visit the new mothers directly, they are now proscribed
from doing so by HIPAA. Any PR or marketing of the programs have to be
addressed into to already crowded media advertising world.

This is precisely why I support a law addressing the actual behavior.

There is nothing; poverty, large families, single parenting that MAKES a
parent spank a child.

A law will address the issue directly. It will mean nothing to those
that already do these things for their children. They won't be effected.
They already actively seek alternatives to CP. Collect and study
information about child development. Provide themselves with strees
reducing activities and strategies for when parenting overwhelms them.

In the law, I'll insist on having these issues addressed.

There must be public funding support for programs mandated to help those
charged and convicted of spanking. If not, there's little point in the
law, though these things in the past have tended to sort themselves out.

I imagine when women's sufferage was finally a fact there was some
support for teaching women the political processes they were about to
engage in.

There was supposed to be help for freed slaves, but that didn't go as well.

The law banning spanking would work for all concerned. The parent
convicted of spanking could then DEMAND state support for them to
rehabilitate. At least some reimbursement, some child care, some
training monies.

I'd be happy with that.

These problems you have mentioned are ones that have been addressed
before at great length by society. They have done pretty much all they
can do, sans constitutional violations, at this point. Now it's time to
move forward with a law.

--
beccafromlalaland


Kane
PS, Embry and Malfetti found that there was a change from baseline
counted street entries from 9.7 per hour by children, to, after the
program, 0.7 entries per hour.

What was also remarkable was that the rate of "safe play" praise by
parents also shot up after they had been trained. In fact, 33 times more
such incidents after the program than before at measuring for the baseline.

Even children having a very low baseline street entry rate, dropped
considerably after the training was in place. 1.8 entries per hour, as
opposed to 0.2 per hour with the program in place. Only 10% of the
baseline rate.

Pretty remarkable when one considers that parents who spanked before had
children that attemped entries at the highest rate of all per hour. K~

--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006
  #5  
Old January 30th 06, 02:47 PM
beccafromlalaland beccafromlalaland is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by ParentingBanter: Dec 2005
Posts: 108
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0:-

There is no such limit. Anyone wishing to take a parenting class can
find them easily. Health departments, parks and recreation, mental
health departments, some schools, private instructors are all available.

In fact, you can even find on-line classes.
In my area no one talks about parenting classes until it's too late. They are not encouraged, they are only available at certain times that make it inconveniant for working parents, no child care is available. Most low income families that I know do not have a computer, nor do they know how to use the internet, nor do they have time to go to the library to take a class on how to use the internet. So how are they to gain access to parenting classes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kane
How would you get them to go to parenting classes until they were
compelled to?

The classes are everywhere. They are even free in some places.
How would you force people to obey a no-spanking law without first setting up a support network, and educational resources?

The classes are not everywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kane
How are they not encouraged? You mean actively discouraged, or not
publicized enough?
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kane
Two problems, I think.

One is that you cannot compel them to attend unless they have CPS
intervention going on. It would be civil rights violation. I've argued
with state legislators over this when one governor or another proposed
"early intervention" with new mothers in geographical areas considered
high risk, or with behaviors considered high risk. They understood
rather easily when I pointed out the BOR to them from the Constitution.

One cannot compel another's actions without due cause. And that has to
be addressed with some action. The only legal action would be child
protection statutes.
I was once considered an at risk parent. I was 19 with a newborn, and a history of family abuse. You know what my local hospital did upon discharge from the maternity unit. Sent a nurse to my home once a week for the first 6months of my child's life. She came to check up on my child, and my physical and emotional recovery. She provided me with information. She caught my post partum depression. She helped insure that mother child bond grew properly. If at 6months she felt that we needed more help she would have continued with her visits, and provided me with more information.

Sometimes you have to go through the back door to get to the front door.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kane
Two, money.

Who will provide this support network?

Churches, local interest groups, even the local health department
schedules a variety of things to get young parents involved, especially
new mothers, even providing child care during the meetings.
if you are talking passing of a Federal Law then it should be Federal Money that pays for the classes, locations, and child care.

Local government would be responsible for the support network. In my area most support groups for new parents, or parents with problems are either offered at the Intermediate school district, or at the Hospital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kane
The problem is that the families that are targetted for this help can
refuse to respond, or simply not be interested, and that is certainly
their right. I do not support compelled services unless the level of
problem has reached a proportion that has involved child protection
services by the state.
yes that is certainly their right, but even having the help publicized to a level that will continually remind them that it is available would be a step in the right direction. As it stands now, you only hear of parenting classes if you are ordered to take them or you are looking for them.

Yet you support a law to prohibit spanking, without first having programs in place to teach parents new techniques.

If we were a bunch of cannabals who didn't know how to butcher a cow, would you be in support of a law that prohibits people eating without first teaching people how to butcher a cow? (weird analogy, but I think it works)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kane
And while at one time such programs could access hospital records for
new births, and visit the new mothers directly, they are now proscribed
from doing so by HIPAA. Any PR or marketing of the programs have to be
addressed into to already crowded media advertising world.
As of september 2004 my local hospital was still sending nurses to new mother's homes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kane
There is nothing; poverty, large families, single parenting that MAKES a
parent spank a child.
I disagree. perhaps the situation doesn't "make" them spank...but it certainly makes it easier to spank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kane
A law will address the issue directly.
How?? Do the laws against murder address the issues that cause a person to murder? No they just provide incentive not to, and punishment when you do.

Speaking of punishment...what type of punishment do you have in mind for this law?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kane
. Provide themselves with strees
reducing activities and strategies for when parenting overwhelms them.
Many single parent households, poor households, etc. Don't have the luxuery of a parental "time out" They have to work, they have to parent, they have to clean the house, they don't have the help needed to take a break.
__________________
Becca

Momma to two boys

Big Guy 3/02
and

Wuvy-Buv 8/05
  #6  
Old January 30th 06, 11:19 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


beccafromlalaland wrote:
0:- Wrote:


There is no such limit. Anyone wishing to take a parenting class can
find them easily. Health departments, parks and recreation, mental
health departments, some schools, private instructors are all
available.

In fact, you can even find on-line classes.


In my area no one talks about parenting classes until it's too late.


Who is responsible for that?

They are not encouraged, they are only available at certain times that
make it inconveniant for working parents, no child care is available.


Sorry about your area. Have you researched more?

Most low income families that I know do not have a computer, nor do
they know how to use the internet, nor do they have time to go to the
library to take a class on how to use the internet. So how are they to
gain access to parenting classes?


I have no idea. How do they find time to watch TV? Bowl? Tavern hang?

Check again with your county health department for available child
rearing classes.

By the way, I know many low income families and very few lack a
computer. They are just so cheap these days. Used are going for $50 to
a hundred bucks, with software installed, lots of it, including a
browser. And kids are taught computer use in public schools.

I'm still puzzled though that you think the community has some
responsibility above and beyond the parents themselves to aquire better
parenting skills, so they won't feel the need to spank.

Remember, we are talking about making it a law not to spank. That is a
motivator. Just like traffic laws that require being able to pass a
driving test. Or a food handler's permit. Or practicing law. It's the
person's responsibility...not one elses.

No matter how available parenting information might be you cannot force
people to access it unless you have a law that makes it illegal to
spank.

Non consentual spanking is assault if performed on an adult. How can it
logically not be just because it's performed on a child.

Kane

kane Wrote:

How would you get them to go to parenting classes until they were
compelled to?

The classes are everywhere. They are even free in some places.



How would you force people to obey a no-spanking law without first
setting up a support network, and educational resources?

The classes are not everywhere.

kane Wrote:

How are they not encouraged? You mean actively discouraged, or not
publicized enough?


See above.

kane Wrote:

Two problems, I think.

One is that you cannot compel them to attend unless they have CPS
intervention going on. It would be civil rights violation. I've argued
with state legislators over this when one governor or another proposed
"early intervention" with new mothers in geographical areas considered
high risk, or with behaviors considered high risk. They understood
rather easily when I pointed out the BOR to them from the
Constitution.

One cannot compel another's actions without due cause. And that has to
be addressed with some action. The only legal action would be child
protection statutes.


I was once considered an at risk parent. I was 19 with a newborn, and
a history of family abuse. You know what my local hospital did upon
discharge from the maternity unit. Sent a nurse to my home once a week
for the first 6months of my child's life. She came to check up on my
child, and my physical and emotional recovery. She provided me with
information. She caught my post partum depression. She helped insure
that mother child bond grew properly. If at 6months she felt that we
needed more help she would have continued with her visits, and provided
me with more information.

Sometimes you have to go through the back door to get to the front
door.


kane Wrote:

Two, money.

Who will provide this support network?

Churches, local interest groups, even the local health department
schedules a variety of things to get young parents involved,
especially
new mothers, even providing child care during the meetings.


if you are talking passing of a Federal Law then it should be Federal
Money that pays for the classes, locations, and child care.

Local government would be responsible for the support network. In my
area most support groups for new parents, or parents with problems are
either offered at the Intermediate school district, or at the
Hospital.

kane Wrote:

The problem is that the families that are targetted for this help can
refuse to respond, or simply not be interested, and that is certainly
their right. I do not support compelled services unless the level of
problem has reached a proportion that has involved child protection
services by the state.


yes that is certainly their right, but even having the help publicized
to a level that will continually remind them that it is available would
be a step in the right direction. As it stands now, you only hear of
parenting classes if you are ordered to take them or you are looking
for them.

Yet you support a law to prohibit spanking, without first having
programs in place to teach parents new techniques.

If we were a bunch of cannabals who didn't know how to butcher a cow,
would you be in support of a law that prohibits people eating without
first teaching people how to butcher a cow? (weird analogy, but I
think it works)

kane Wrote:

And while at one time such programs could access hospital records for
new births, and visit the new mothers directly, they are now
proscribed
from doing so by HIPAA. Any PR or marketing of the programs have to be
addressed into to already crowded media advertising world.


As of september 2004 my local hospital was still sending nurses to new
mother's homes.


kane Wrote:

There is nothing; poverty, large families, single parenting that MAKES
a
parent spank a child.


I disagree. perhaps the situation doesn't "make" them spank...but it
certainly makes it easier to spank.

kane Wrote:

A law will address the issue directly.


How?? Do the laws against murder address the issues that cause a
person to murder? No they just provide incentive not to, and
punishment when you do.

Speaking of punishment...what type of punishment do you have in mind
for this law?


kane Wrote:
. Provide themselves with strees
reducing activities and strategies for when parenting overwhelms them.


Many single parent households, poor households, etc. Don't have the
luxuery of a parental "time out" They have to work, they have to
parent, they have to clean the house, they don't have the help needed
to take a break.


--
beccafromlalaland


  #7  
Old January 31st 06, 04:29 AM
beccafromlalaland beccafromlalaland is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by ParentingBanter: Dec 2005
Posts: 108
Default

I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more questions...and did not answer any of my questions.

Dodging?
__________________
Becca

Momma to two boys

Big Guy 3/02
and

Wuvy-Buv 8/05
  #8  
Old January 31st 06, 08:13 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


That's just typical of ignoranus kane0. Be prepare for the adhom
from him, beccafromlalalan. ;-)

Doan

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote:


I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more
questions...and did not answer any of my questions.

Dodging?


--
beccafromlalaland


  #9  
Old January 31st 06, 05:17 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant

beccafromlalaland wrote:
I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more
questions...and did not answer any of my questions.


That is untrue. I have responded to every post and to every question. I
have asked questions of my own where you asked and confined your premise
to your geo area. I have asked when the question did not make sense in
context. And I have have asked, then gone on to answer the question you
poses or comment you offered where I thought I was being invited to.


Dodging?

If you can find a place I dodged please point it out and I'll happily
answer, or where I cannot admit I cannot. I will also ask questions to
gain more information about your question so that I can, hopefully, answer.

You did not attribute in the post I'm responding to now any of the prior
posts. When I read them over, as I just did, I do NOT see where your
accusation is true.

But I'm open for correction if you'll point out my 'dodging.'

In fact, I'll go back over my own posts in this thread and do it FOR
you. Feel free to correct my doing so. I do not hide, dodge, mislead,
lie, or otherwise attempt to obfuscate these issues.

And never have.

Kane



--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006
  #10  
Old January 31st 06, 05:31 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant

This reply to my own message is in the form it is to answer
beccafromlalalands comment and question in a recent post to me:

"I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more
questions...and did not answer any of my questions.

Dodging?


-- beccafromlalaland "

I shall attempt either to answer any unanswered questions or admit that
I do not have an answer. My comments [[ will be in square brackets ]].

0:- wrote:
beccafromlalaland wrote:

We should discuss socioeconomic status as a mitigating factor in the use
of CP. And how to address that issue.



Who is "we?"


[[ I was not asked a question ]]



Or is that too current and real for you?



Are you addressing me, or the group?


[[ becca did not use my name and I'm not the only person here. But I'll
attempt to directly answer assuming, since we went on after this post,
she does mean me in this instance. No it is not to current nor too real,
and I've responded to it by stating so further in the post. It is just
not relevant to what I wish to discuss. ]]



--
beccafromlalaland



I've no problem addressing that issue. The answers are probably far out
of reach for most in this group though. Alan Greenspan does not post
here.


[[ While my answer was whimsical it's obvious that I do not consider it
possible to solve economic problems before addressing the spanking
issue. If we waited for economic answers for the solution to problems
we'd have the cart before the horse. ]]


The more immediate and more accessible issues would have the most
immediate impact pun intended on the spanking issue.

I'm not here, though I can't speak for others, say Doan, to idly
distract and misdirect folks.

To me this is a practical matter of mitigating children's daily pain
and fear.

I'd be, when we are through discussing "socioeconomic status," going
back to the more proximate issues.

How to change attitude and long held beliefs seems more important to
me. While that's no easy job, it seems more accessible than how to
change socioeconomic status and hope that that has an effect on
spanking.


[[ I continue to address your question, becca. I am not dodging. I am
not an economist, thus can't answer such questions authoritatively. And
they are a diversion from the real issue here. Related by not pivotal. ]]


I don't think there's an appreciable drop in spanking rates until you
reach very high levels of income.

Now if you wanted to deal with abusive discipline, that could be
factored in with CPS data from the USDHS and you could find
socioeconomic influences.


[[ I continue to answer your original question, the best I can...no
dodgin' here, or do you consider that I am not whatever kind of
professional that would be involved for any question you ask as my
"dodging?" ]]


I think it's time we welcomed discussion on what a law should look like
that bans spanking.

While I disagree with you that a 25 year old study is outdated (we use
the ancient research of others in current science and industry
commonly...take a class in electrical engineering for instance) I do
agree that there is "current" things to look at.

And what could be more current than a new law, either a state law for
each state, or though less my preference, a single federal law.

What should be in such a spanking or CP ban law?

But feel free to explore "socioeconomic status as a mitigating factor
in the use
of CP. And how to address that issue."


[[ While I cannot, nor do I wish to spend time on an issue that others
could better address, socioeconomic status, I am inviting you to if you
have something to say. What's "dodging" about that? ]]


If I'm interested I'll be happy to contribute in whatever way I can.


[[ And I'm still open to more questions on YOUR issue if you wish to ask
them. You did NOT take that invitation. I could call you a "dodger" for
that, but will not since in the normal course of a conversational
exchange, debate or otherwise, people move on from subject to subject,
issue to issue, item to item, as a matter of course. In this group
presently posting only Doan would stoop to such low tactics and ploys. I
can't imagine that you would, purposefully. Why accuse me of dodging
"and did not answer any of my questions," as you put it? That's simply
not true. ]]

Kane


Thank you for reading. On to the next post in this series to see if I
failed to answer any questions, let alone "did not answer any."

Kane


--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006
 




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