pregnant 17 year old

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:24:28 -0400, Ericka Kammerer
wrote:

Circe wrote:

I've pretty well lost any remaining patience or interest I had in
responding to Chris. If he IS for real, nothing anyone can say to him
is going to help him because he has no interest in being helped. And if
he's not for real, arguing with him is a singular waste of time and
bandwidth.

sigh Too true. Guess it's time ;-) Even my
optimism is wearing thin.

I must say I'm impressed you and Barbara stuck it out!

Nan
--
October is National Breast Cancer Awareness Month...
Please help fund Mammograms for underprivileged women
clicking here (no cost to you):http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

Okay, it's official. This horse is dead. Let's all stop beating it, shall
we? : )
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- My Big Girl, who started preschool, and loved it!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Walker, who wants nothing more than to
go explore the world!

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
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Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Circe wrote:

I've pretty well lost any remaining patience or interest I had in
responding to Chris. If he IS for real, nothing anyone can say to him
is going to help him because he has no interest in being helped. And if
he's not for real, arguing with him is a singular waste of time and
bandwidth.

sigh Too true. Guess it's time ;-) Even my
optimism is wearing thin.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Banty" wrote and I snipped:

He is now over at alt.support.step-parents. Stomping around trying to
give
advice, of course, not quite seeking it.

If it's at my suggestion, either I've created a monster, or they'll
straighten
him right out. My bet: he'll either get straightened out or eventually
leave
there.

I suggested a.s.s-p as well. I suspect that even with their normally
hands-off-by-step-parents mode, they'll attempt to get him to consider more
responsibility than it seems he's taken. I hope he listens, for everyone's
sake.

-Patty, mom of 1+2

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 15:30:57 -0400, "PattyMomVA"
wrote:

"Banty" wrote and I snipped:

He is now over at alt.support.step-parents. Stomping around trying to
give
advice, of course, not quite seeking it.

If it's at my suggestion, either I've created a monster, or they'll
straighten
him right out. My bet: he'll either get straightened out or eventually
leave
there.

I suggested a.s.s-p as well. I suspect that even with their normally
hands-off-by-step-parents mode, they'll attempt to get him to consider more
responsibility than it seems he's taken. I hope he listens, for everyone's
sake.

So do I, but he's not even remotely interested in being a
step-parent...

Nan
--
October is National Breast Cancer Awareness Month...
Please help fund Mammograms for underprivileged women
clicking here (no cost to you):http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

Nan writes:

: I must say I'm impressed you and Barbara stuck it out!

Uh. Impressed is not exactly the first word that jumps into my mind.

;-)
Larry

wrote in message ...
Nan writes:

: I must say I'm impressed you and Barbara stuck it out!

Uh. Impressed is not exactly the first word that jumps into my mind.

Aw, c'mon Larry, tell us what you REALLY think g...

Seriously, I took the bait for a LOT longer than I should have, and I'm not
sure my fellow mkp'ers appreciated it. But it WAS fun for a while there. My
apologies. I shouldn't have fun at the expense of fouling up my fellow
posters' newsgroup...
--
Be well, Barbara

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:21:59 -0700, "Circe" wrote:

wrote in message ...
Nan writes:

: I must say I'm impressed you and Barbara stuck it out!

Uh. Impressed is not exactly the first word that jumps into my mind.

Aw, c'mon Larry, tell us what you REALLY think g...

Seriously, I took the bait for a LOT longer than I should have, and I'm not
sure my fellow mkp'ers appreciated it. But it WAS fun for a while there. My
apologies. I shouldn't have fun at the expense of fouling up my fellow
posters' newsgroup...

Pfft. Everyone had the choice to read, or deep-six the thread. I
chose to read and enjoyed it ;-)

Nan
--
October is National Breast Cancer Awareness Month...
Please help fund Mammograms for underprivileged women
clicking here (no cost to you):http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

"alath" wrote in message
ups.com...

It's fairly likely that his wife, having given up after long dealing
with the
kind of intransigence and defensiveness that we're dealing with, is
going about
the situation in her way unilaterally.

I wonder what the wife is like. Chris has shown his true colors here,
quite clearly. Maybe the wife has no grasp or concept of adult
relationships either - it would go a long way towards explaining her
choice of a husband.

Either way, the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Even one "partner"
like Chris in a marriage would spell its doom.

Chris doesn't divorce.


I keep wondering if he's a troll. It is hard to believe anyone could be
so freaking dense, and so incredibly persistent with strategies that
are obviously not working. He's like the guy who keeps beating his own
head with a hammer while complaining about why his headache won't go
away. And he's not about to listen to any suggestion that he might
consider putting down the hammer. I suppose there might really be
people out there like him, but not likely outside of institutional
settings. Then again, since he knows it all and obviously has no
intention of reconsidering his actions or listening to anyone else's
suggestions, it kind of begs the question why he posted on the usenet
to begin with, other than to stir up conflict. And that, by definition,
would make him a troll.

Ad hominem.

"Circe" wrote in message
news:OcR4f.2172$UF4.855@fed1read02...
"Chris" wrote in message
news:0_Q4f.2171$UF4.1470@fed1read02...
"alath" wrote in message
oups.com...
All the other 20 or 30 people who have posted here challenging your
positions are obviously idiots who can't possibly manage their
marriages or relationships with kids and/or stepchildren. That's why
our families are all so messed up, and yours is so ideal. Gosh, Chris,
please tell us more so we can all aspire to be like you.

Like I said, it aint' me crying the big "D" word on a regular basis (in
fact
I have never used it). But I suppose divorce UNmesses up a family.

Frankly, Chris, sometimes divorce is the best option for families.

Irresponsible remarks such as the one above is reason enough to discount ANY
marital advice from you.

Is it the
best option for you and your wife? None of us can tell you that. All we
can
tell you is that if your wife is talking about divorce on a regular basis,
it's hardly likely that it's because your relationship with your wife is
ideal.

What a novel concept.

--
Be well, Barbara

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Chris wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
news

It's a two way street. Clearly, not only are others
(including your wife) not experiencing a conversion to your
way of thinking as a result of your utterances, but you
are not choosing to "hear" what others have to say to you,
or give it any significant consideration. It may well be
that your wife understands what you're saying quite
clearly and simply doesn't agree. Part of communication
in a relationship involves *listening* and *negotiating*,
not just declaiming.

Agreed, and it would be nice if my wife did that.

And it would be nice if *you* did as well, because
it will take both of you doing it before things are going
to work out for you.

I said no such thing. I said that you haven't
stepped up to the plate and even done the *mininimal*
amount of work that I think is appropriate to effectively
address this situation. Not only that, but it's incredibly
disingenuous to say that it's all about *either* helping
your daughter *or* saving your marriage, when your
ineffectiveness and lack of effort is likely *both*
hurting your daughter *and* harming your marriage.
I think you should have placed your marriage and wife
first *by* finding effective help for your daughter.

Not when her daughter is the one assaulting the sanctity of our home. I
don't give a rip WHO it is attacking my wife/marriage/home. I will do
what's
necessary to stop the threat. And if that means stopping her own child,
so
be it! Did I just offend you?

No, you dodged the issue. So, since your attitude
is also likely a threat to your marriage, are you doing
what's necessary to stop that threat as well?

Complex question. My attitude is NOT a threat to my marriage.

Furthermore,
I don't buy that it's your daughter assaulting your marriage.

She would love nothing more than for her mother to leave me, and she is
doing everything she can to encourage it. Not a threat?

While dealing with these difficult family problems is a
stress on a marriage, what spells success or failure isn't
the external stress, it's how the partners *deal* with the
stress. *Neither* you *nor* your wife are dealing effectively
with the stress--and *that's* the problem.

How does one "effectively" make a horse drink?

You can attempt
to externalize the issue if you like, but it will only
delay the possibility of an effective solution.

Care to tell me what would have been improper
about getting your daughter into a residential program
designed to deal with her issues BEFORE there was a
baby to deal with? It was important then. It's even
more appointment now, and you keep on frittering time
away. Eventually, you will have frittered all your
time away and you really won't have much left in the
way of options that actually give your daughter a
fighting chance. But apparently that doesn't bother
you.

Have you forgotten that her mother is the one who calls the shots
(regarding
her daughter), or were you never aware of that?

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have misheard that part
about you two being "one flesh" and all that jazz.

Whatever does THAT have to do with her choice of behavior?

It has to do with *YOUR* choice of behavior.
It's very simple in my book. Your wife, at the very
least, has moral, legal, and ethical responsibilities
to her daughter (not to mention those pesky obligations
that come from familial love and duty). If you are
"one flesh" with her, then you assume those obligations
right along with her.

No I don't.

Well, obviously. Hence my assertion that you
don't take the whole "one flesh" thing very seriously.

I suppose that I ougtht to do the time if she commits a crime too.


But you don't choose to do that.
You choose to be "one flesh" with your wife, except
for those pesky bits that are inconvenient to you.

Clearly, you lack understanding of the concept.

I would suggest you're the one lacking in
understanding.

Enlighten me.


Well, you're surely not treating her as
your wife ought to be treated as far as I'm concerned.

I know, because your idea of how to "treat" a wife is to simply heed to
her
foolish ways while she destroys her daughter, her marriage, and herself.

I never said that. I challenge you to find *ONE*
*SINGLE* example where I said that. Go ahead. I'll wait...

Didn't say that you "said" it, did I?


have you
ever researched and presented your wife with a viable
option along these lines? No? Well, then, how do
you know that she would have refused it?

And, of course, you elect not to answer the
most pertinent question...

You answered it for me.

Still dodging, eh?

To what purpose would I answer a question which you already answered?

If you are standing by
your claim that you're not part of the problem and
have no responsibility for the solution, get out there
are defend your position.


The burden of communication rests with the sender.

Nope, my friend, it's a two way street, as any
basic linguistics text will explain.

Sorry, unlike MANY others (here) I do not read minds. In order to to
send
your message, you have to speak in the language of the recipient.

And the recipient has to be trying to understand
and work with the sender. Without that, effective
communication is not possible. You are all for sending,
but not so interested in receiving.

Excercising your mind reading skills again.

No, you've effectively said so. You've said you
don't really care about anything except doing "what's proper,"
which, of course, in your mind is only the particular course
that you've already decided upon.

Tell me, have you utilized your amazing mind reading ability to amass
millions of dollars from business deals? With a skill like that, it would be
a piece of cake to gain such riches.

Your only expressed goal
so far has been to get your wife to agree to your position.

Correction: My expressed goal is to stop the disruption to our home and our
marriage.


No, it consists of you and your wife working
together to negotiate your way to effective solutions.

She won't work with me. She is insistent on the same old methods. What's
the
saying? "If you continue doing what you did, then you will continue
getting
what you got". Frankly, I aint' interested in continuing to get what she
got!

Did it ever occur to you that your rigidity might
have something to do with encouraging her defensiveness
and rigidity in response? Where have you tried to find
solutions that will take steps in the right direction that
will satisfy *both* your criteria?

I can't even answer your question. Who knows what you mean by "*both* your
criteria".


I haven't heard your wife's side to have any idea of
what she's willing (or not) to do, but it's quite
clear to me that *you* have no interest in doing
anything outside of a very narrow range of things
you've arbitrarily and unilaterally defined as
"proper." That's not leadership, nor is it conducive
to an effective marriage partnership. In fact, it's
quite destructive in a marriage.

Uhuh, and that's precisely how many people have gotten into trouble, by
heeding to the advice of "have an open mind".

There ya go. Hate to tell you, but you've
already *got* trouble with your approach. How 'bout
you consider the possibility that just maybe your approach
isn't working so well and just maybe something different
might work? Oh, I forget. It's not "proper." Well,
I suspect you'll be good and "proper" with a failed marriage.

No problem, so long as I behave correctly. Marriage is a priority, but it
does not trump doing what I ought to do. It's apparent that we both live by
two different ethical standards.


You just aren't interested if it isn't on your terms.
You've already decided what you're willing to do and
what you're not willing to do, and you aren't interested
in compromise or understanding anyone else's position
(including your wife's) or in inconveniencing yourself
for the betterment of others (including your wife or
your marriage) unless it conforms to your rigid notions
of what you will or will not do.

Sounds like my wife.

Guess you're a match made in heaven, eh?

Not even close.


Perhaps on the "compromise" part. But then again, I will NEVER
compromise on
what I know to be correct and just. Would you?

I wouldn't be so self-righteous as to presume
that I, and only I, have all the right answers and
no one else, including my spouse, has valid thoughts
and feelings that need to be heard, understood, and
worked with. But maybe I'm just not as perfect as
you, though here I was thinking that my marriage and
family were humming along quite nicely, thank you
very much.

Thank you for your opinion.


If I am responsible for her responsibilities, then that makes her
incompetent.

She's a minor, fer cryin' out loud

My wife.

Oh, you're still denying the "one flesh" thing.

With all due respect, your response doesn't follow.

I still think that's a pile of BS. My husband and I
are in our lives together. I rather like it that way.

If my
husband has responsibilities in his life, then it
is my responsibility to enable him to meet his
responsibilities in any way that I can, not to
tell him I don't give a rip and he'd better choose
between meeting his responsibilities and making
me happy. My marriage isn't going to be successful
unless I *HELP* him meet his responsibilities (and
yours isn't either).


Tell that to my wife who isn't helping me meet my responsibilities of
protecting our marriage and home.

Pot, meet kettle. You can whine about her behavior
all you like,

Not me that's whining.... it's YOU.

Oh, puhleeze. What is whining if not all this
"it's not my fault," "she did it first," "I couldn't do
anything different."

Those are my quotes?

Classic whining behavior mastered
by any self-respecting preschooler. It's just that most
don't get away with it and move on to better strategies
(hopefully before they move out and get married).

Why would this be inconsistent with what I said
above? It doesn't surprise me in the least that your wife
would be upset at your rigidity and autocracy and wouldn't
be thrilled with continuing to live that way and would
question whether doing so was consistent with her responsibilities
to her daughter.

Tell you what. That activity has come to a dead stop no.!

[Above typo: should read "dead stop now"]

If my wife
believes that her being here is inconsistent with her responsibilies to
her
daughter, then she is welcome to leave, take her daughter with her, and
once
again enjoy such lifestyle. It just aint' gonna happen here!

Betcha within a few years' time, that's exactly
what will have happened. And you'll get to lather, rinse,
and repeat with your next partner, since apparently you
won't have learned any lessons from the first go 'round.

No problem lathering with the shampoo of righteousness.


Best wishes,
Ericka