chances of m/c

Hillary Israeli wrote:
In 33Jtc.5144$4A6.2869@attbi_s52,
Crystal Dreamer wrote:

*Oh, the statistics for stillbirth and infant deaths are overwhelming.
*Roughly 1 in 100 pregnancies end in stillbirth (miscarriage after 20 weeks.)

And absolutely that is horrible for those involved, and for society, and I
wouldn't wish it on an enemy. But that means that 99% do not end in
stillbirth. 99 chances out of 100 are good odds. I'd buy that lottery
ticket.

Thanks, Hillary, for putting it this way. I'm hoping to TTC
again soon, but a part of me is really scared of having another
late-term loss. The OB and the perinatologist assure me that
they couldn't find anything to make them thing I am more prone
to this than average -- it was probably just a fluke -- and it
helps that I had no problems in pg#1.

Shortly after my loss (technically a stillbirth in the state
where I live), I heard about and from an overwhelming number
of people who had had similar experiences, and it was hard to
keep that 1/100 big picture in the face of all that. It didn't
help that a lot of people would say "I'm really sorry to hear
you had to do through that, and I know what it's like, because
it happened to me, too" and I wouldn't have time to find out
whether they just meant m/c in general or the late term loss.

I think that an early m/c for me at this point would be awful,
but still easier to handle than another late term loss. If I
have an early m/c next (knock on wood I won't), I suspect I'll
still be up for ttc again. Another late term loss, and I think
I'd just count my blessings and stop where I was.

One thing which really threw me for a loop was to hear from
my old next door neighboor (who was pg at the same time) that
she had lost her baby at 22 weeks. Too much coincidence. The
story she told me over the phone was "everything was fine, and
then all of the sudden, bleeding and m/c". When I saw her in
person a few weeks later, I found out that in fact the baby
had had Downs and they'd decided to terminate, but they didn't
want to talk about that decision with everyone, so they were mostly
telling folks it was a m/c. I really felt for her -- that decision
would be so heartbreaking, and the loss, I think harder to
move on from (with?). I was really glad to find out the
true story, though. It makes me less worried about repeating
my experience, because that was *different* enough (though just
one more thing to worry about).

Anyway, re something else that has come up in this thread:
We didn't tell folks (other than family) until the second
trimester in order to avoid having to announce a m/c, and
I think I'll definitely stick with that policy if we conceive
again, even though it's not foolproof.

--
Emily
mom to Toby 5/1/02
Scheherazade, stillborn at 20 weeks, 3/2/04

One thing which really threw me for a loop was to hear from
my old next door neighboor (who was pg at the same time) that
she had lost her baby at 22 weeks. Too much coincidence.


My next-door neighbor miscarried at 5-7 weeks just 2 months ago. That gave
me pause, since I miscarried at a very similar stage.

Jenrose

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Crystal Dreamer wrote:


Just wanted to point out that if a woman gets in early enough and her
progesterone levels are low, taking a progesterone supplement can
prevent a miscarriage. If she is RH-, then she can be given a shot.

What is the relevance of the Rh factor to miscarriage?
As far as I know, there is no shot related to the Rh factor that
prevents miscarriage. An anti-D shot prevents sensitization
(hopefully), but sensitization is not likely to create problems
in the index pregnancy, and by the next pregnancy the shot
can't make you "un-sensitized."

Best wishes,
Ericka

Sorry, that's what I was talking about! I was a bit confused.

"Jenrose" wrote in message
s.com...

Because people open their mouths without thinking. And I don't think
my
answer makes them feel like ****, because I'm very open and honest
about
my
history and my losses. I don't say it in a crappy way and walk off in
a
huff. I say it very matter of fact with a smile, and move the
conversation
on to a different topic. Just because someone means well, doesn't
mean
that
they still aren't saying something stupid or hurtful.
--


Well it just seems unnecessarily hurtful, that's all.



You know, I just had a friend call up and leave a message on our phone...
keep in mind that he's a gruff old guy who is sort of clueless at the best
of times, but he actually said, "I hope Jen is feeling just wonderful
despite recent events."

I had another person say, "Well, at least it didn't hurt you too bad, did
it?" Like she desperately wanted to know that I hadn't been hurt.

Well, I don't feel wonderful. It hurt like hell, physically and
emotionally.
The first one was so clueless that I just shook my head and laughed
bitterly
at how completely, totally inappropriate it was. Thank god it was a phone
message--I don't think I could deal with him right now. The second one? I
just looked her in the eye and said, "No, it was one of the most
excruciating things I've ever felt."

I didn't tell her why... that having my body rip a well-implanted placenta
off the wall of my uterus when there was nothing to "push" against took 14
hours of ONE long spasming uterine contraction that felt like something
was
tearing the whole time. That afterward, it felt like a small labor, and
that
was a damn relief because it meant I had breaks. That the most brutal
thing
was that the baby came out right when I was really starting to hope that
things might be alright, and that perversely, THAT is when it stopped
hurting physically even though I felt like I had my soul lying dead in my
hands.

The people who have been the most helpful through this process are not the
ones who have said "Oh, I'm sorry" or "Are you okay?" Nor even the ones
who
have said, "Let me know if I can do anything to help" even though they
live
thousands of miles away.

I *do* appreciate the well wishes, even of the clueless. When it hurt the
worst, I recieved a lot of prayers and I think that actually really helped
sustain me through the worst of it.

But sorry won't bring my baby back. I'm not okay. And no, there's not one
damn thing anyone can do to make it better.

The people who have been the most helpful are the ones who say, "That
really
sucks." Because it does really suck. And then they don't say much at
all...but they offer their hand or a hug or some other human contact. They
don't try to fix the unfixable, or desperately search for something to
make
the unacceptable somehow more tolerable. There's this social urge to make
things more "okay"... sometimes that's just not possible.

I have to agree-after losing Brian, honestly, the best and most empathic
comments came from the older kids at school. My favorite was the 6th grade
girl who's reaction, with mega-emotion was "YOu must be ****ED"-Yep...that
about described it...

Adults tried too hard, and usually ended up hurting more. Things I wished
I'd never have to hear again:

"You can try again"... (Well, actually, my BP is still held down to normal
only because of extremely strong drugs, and it will be a YEAR before my
doctors say they can give me any clue as to whether or not I can try again.
Assuming I want to risk my life again at all)

"God needed more little angels" (Gee...with all those aborted babies out
there, I'd think he'd have a surplus and wouldn't have to take a wanted
one!)

"You can always adopt" (Tell that to my breasts, which are still screaming
because my milk is trying to come in. They want a baby NOW!!!)

"Good will come out of this" (Two 1/2 years later...still don't see what
"good" has come out of this)

And a lot more....

The only adults who responded at all in a way which was supportive were
those who'd been there done that-or something similar, like the teacher at
my school who had been able to have only one child-a boy with Downs, who's
response was "The day my son was born was the worst day of my life too."


Jenrose

"Crystal Dreamer" wrote in message
news:Ce4uc.13646$js4.5809@attbi_s51...
Jamie Clark wrote:
While I understand what you are saying, there isn't anything that
really can be done, medically speaking, any sooner. You can't stop
an unviable pregnancy from ending, just as without medical
intervention, you can't cause a viable pregnancy to end. If it's
going to work out, it's going to work out, and it doesn't really
matter what you do or don't do, eat or don't eat, drink or don't
drink -- barring of course major drug or alcohol consumption.
Dancing, or not dancing, bedrest or no bedrest, working or not
working, don't really change the outcome. Seeing a doctor for an u/s
at 6 weeks, or not, doesn't change the outcome. It can certainly
warn you about the possibility of a negative outcome, but it doesn't
change it.

Just wanted to point out that if a woman gets in early enough and her
progesterone levels are low, taking a progesterone supplement can prevent
a
miscarriage. If she is RH-, then she can be given a shot. If she has
incompetent cervix, a cerclage may be placed. Fortunately, there are a
few
things that can be done to prevent a miscarriage if a woman is seen by her
doctor early enough.


In addition, there are treatments which can be given for underlying
disorders which can greatly increase the chance of a pregnancy succeeding.
Extra antioxidants and low-dose aspirin both have reduced the rate of
recurrent pre-eclampsia, and if you're more aware and catch extra warning
signs, going on bedrest CAN reduce PE symptoms and allow the pregnancy to
last longer-which just might be long enough.

And I'm sorry, but I have to believe that working at a job where I'm on my
feet literally all day, where dancing and movement is most of what I do,
where I had to put on concerts every month or so, in an inner city,
high-stress school did contribute to my BP being higher than normal even
early in the pregnancy. Almost half the babies born to teachers at my school
who have worked until the end have ended up being premature. I have to think
that working can't be helping at bit-which is why I chose to give up my job
for this baby.

In k.net,
Jamie Clark wrote:

* Which is exactly why it frustrates me unspeakably that standard care does
* not start until you are ~10w pregnant. In the medical world, you are not
* really considered pregnant until you are almost in the second trimester.
*
*While I understand what you are saying, there isn't anything that really can
*be done, medically speaking, any sooner. You can't stop an unviable
*pregnancy from ending, just as without medical intervention, you can't cause
*a viable pregnancy to end. If it's going to work out, it's going to work
*out, and it doesn't really matter what you do or don't do, eat or don't eat,
*drink or don't drink -- barring of course major drug or alcohol consumption.
*Dancing, or not dancing, bedrest or no bedrest, working or not working,
*don't really change the outcome. Seeing a doctor for an u/s at 6 weeks, or
*not, doesn't change the outcome. It can certainly warn you about the
*possibility of a negative outcome, but it doesn't change it.

All of that is true. That being said, it's certainly a lot nicer for the
pregnant, miscarrying woman if she can be seen by her physician and
treated like a real person who is going through a trauma. I have a few
friends who have called their physicians when they started
cramping/bleeding very early in pregnancy only to be told "well, you're
probably going to miscarry, nothing we can do, stay off your feet, call if
you go through a pad an hour, blah blah blah..." and granted, that is all
true too - but, I know when I had my m/c, and my physician took the time
to see me for an unscheduled visit, and talk to me, and give me a hug, and
make sure I was going to be ok to drive home before letting me leave, it
made me feel a lot better.

h.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

Hilary,
I agree with you. But that doesn't mean that there should necessarily be
any additional medical care or appointments before 10 weeks. I mean, the
minute WE know we're pregnant, usually a few days before our period is due,
or up to a few days after, our worlds are changed, and we want to see a
doctor and feel like we are doing something -- but there isn't much for
doctors to do. Most people like to go have the doctor "prove" they are
pregnant by having the doctor do a pg test, but that doesn't really do
anything concrete or change anything either. A doctors pg test isn't any
more valid than the one we bought at the super WalMart.
--

Jamie & Taylor
Earth Angel, 1/3/03

Check out Taylor Marlys -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1,
Password: Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password

Check out our Adoption Page at http://home.earthlink.net/~jamielee6


"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
In k.net,
Jamie Clark wrote:

* Which is exactly why it frustrates me unspeakably that standard care
does
* not start until you are ~10w pregnant. In the medical world, you are
not
* really considered pregnant until you are almost in the second
trimester.
*
*While I understand what you are saying, there isn't anything that really
can
*be done, medically speaking, any sooner. You can't stop an unviable
*pregnancy from ending, just as without medical intervention, you can't
cause
*a viable pregnancy to end. If it's going to work out, it's going to work
*out, and it doesn't really matter what you do or don't do, eat or don't
eat,
*drink or don't drink -- barring of course major drug or alcohol
consumption.
*Dancing, or not dancing, bedrest or no bedrest, working or not working,
*don't really change the outcome. Seeing a doctor for an u/s at 6 weeks,
or
*not, doesn't change the outcome. It can certainly warn you about the
*possibility of a negative outcome, but it doesn't change it.

All of that is true. That being said, it's certainly a lot nicer for the
pregnant, miscarrying woman if she can be seen by her physician and
treated like a real person who is going through a trauma. I have a few
friends who have called their physicians when they started
cramping/bleeding very early in pregnancy only to be told "well, you're
probably going to miscarry, nothing we can do, stay off your feet, call if
you go through a pad an hour, blah blah blah..." and granted, that is all
true too - but, I know when I had my m/c, and my physician took the time
to see me for an unscheduled visit, and talk to me, and give me a hug, and
make sure I was going to be ok to drive home before letting me leave, it
made me feel a lot better.

h.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

"Jamie Clark" wrote in message
link.net...
Hilary,
I agree with you. But that doesn't mean that there should necessarily be
any additional medical care or appointments before 10 weeks. I mean, the
minute WE know we're pregnant, usually a few days before our period is
due,
or up to a few days after, our worlds are changed, and we want to see a
doctor and feel like we are doing something -- but there isn't much for
doctors to do. Most people like to go have the doctor "prove" they are
pregnant by having the doctor do a pg test, but that doesn't really do
anything concrete or change anything either. A doctors pg test isn't any
more valid than the one we bought at the super WalMart.
-
I don't necessarily believe that. One of the big danger signs in my last
pregnancy was that my BP started to rise early. But, since I didn't have a
first OB appointment until 12 weeks-and didn't see the same OB twice until
20 weeks, there was no baseline. Therefore, I was trying to tell these guys
that my BP was running significantly higher than I normally did-and they
were attributing it to nervousness (even though I've never had white-coat
hypertension in the past, and I'm someone who has been in and out of doctors
offices a lot in my life). As a result, no one ever suggested that I do
even the minor things which can slow the progression of pregnancy-induced
hypertension into pre-eclampsia, like sit down a lot, put my feet up, sleep
on my left side, etc, or that I even check my BP outside the doctors office.

Unless your OB has been your regular GYN for awhile (which insurance can
make difficult-many OB/GYNs are covered under mine for GYN only), having an
early appointment just to get a baseline and to get to know the doctor some
might not be a bad strategy.
-

Jamie & Taylor
Earth Angel, 1/3/03

Check out Taylor Marlys -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1,
Password: Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password

Check out our Adoption Page at http://home.earthlink.net/~jamielee6


"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
In k.net,
Jamie Clark wrote:

* Which is exactly why it frustrates me unspeakably that standard care
does
* not start until you are ~10w pregnant. In the medical world, you are
not
* really considered pregnant until you are almost in the second
trimester.
*
*While I understand what you are saying, there isn't anything that
really
can
*be done, medically speaking, any sooner. You can't stop an unviable
*pregnancy from ending, just as without medical intervention, you can't
cause
*a viable pregnancy to end. If it's going to work out, it's going to
work
*out, and it doesn't really matter what you do or don't do, eat or don't
eat,
*drink or don't drink -- barring of course major drug or alcohol
consumption.
*Dancing, or not dancing, bedrest or no bedrest, working or not working,
*don't really change the outcome. Seeing a doctor for an u/s at 6
weeks,
or
*not, doesn't change the outcome. It can certainly warn you about the
*possibility of a negative outcome, but it doesn't change it.

All of that is true. That being said, it's certainly a lot nicer for the
pregnant, miscarrying woman if she can be seen by her physician and
treated like a real person who is going through a trauma. I have a few
friends who have called their physicians when they started
cramping/bleeding very early in pregnancy only to be told "well, you're
probably going to miscarry, nothing we can do, stay off your feet, call
if
you go through a pad an hour, blah blah blah..." and granted, that is
all
true too - but, I know when I had my m/c, and my physician took the time
to see me for an unscheduled visit, and talk to me, and give me a hug,
and
make sure I was going to be ok to drive home before letting me leave, it
made me feel a lot better.

h.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

Donna Metler wrote:

I don't necessarily believe that. One of the big danger signs in my last
pregnancy was that my BP started to rise early. But, since I didn't have a
first OB appointment until 12 weeks-and didn't see the same OB twice until
20 weeks, there was no baseline.

You mean you were going from practice to practice, or
were they not sharing notes among doctors in the same practice?
If the latter, that's flat out bad medicine.

Therefore, I was trying to tell these guys
that my BP was running significantly higher than I normally did-and they
were attributing it to nervousness (even though I've never had white-coat
hypertension in the past, and I'm someone who has been in and out of doctors
offices a lot in my life).

And if you were saying there's something wrong and they
weren't listening to you, that was also bad medicine. Even
without BP issues, my midwives have *always* asked if the
readings were typical for me. If my BP was high, I was always
asked if I tended towards white coat hypertension, or if
there was something I thought was affecting the reading.
When I was in a group practice, they always looked at my
history for the pregnancy. When I started having BP issues
in my first pregnancy, we even went back to prior caregivers
to get a history of my BP when not pregnant.

As a result, no one ever suggested that I do
even the minor things which can slow the progression of pregnancy-induced
hypertension into pre-eclampsia, like sit down a lot, put my feet up, sleep
on my left side, etc, or that I even check my BP outside the doctors office.

Honestly, it sounds to me like you were simply a
victim of poor care, not necessarily a poor system. (Well,
I think that rotating care *is* a less than ideal system,
but unfortunately, it's the reality of virtually all
pregnancy care these days, so usually the best you can
hope for is a group practice that is careful about
ensuring continuity of care despite multiple providers.)

Unless your OB has been your regular GYN for awhile (which insurance can
make difficult-many OB/GYNs are covered under mine for GYN only), having an
early appointment just to get a baseline and to get to know the doctor some
might not be a bad strategy.

You should certainly interview doctors or midwives.
Most should be willing to schedule a free consult for an
interview. That allows you to get to know them better.
As far as a baseline BP goes, you probably already have
that or can get it from your current caregiver. Any caregiver
who won't listen to you when you say that your BP is normally
thus-and-such is not a caregiver you want to stay with.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Donna Metler" wrote in message
. ..


offices a lot in my life). As a result, no one ever suggested that I do
even the minor things which can slow the progression of pregnancy-induced
hypertension into pre-eclampsia, like sit down a lot, put my feet up,
sleep
on my left side, etc, or that I even check my BP outside the doctors
office.


I don't think any of that has been shown to have any benefit for PE, not
even bedrest. PE is almost unheard of though, in obstetric or midwife
practices where women are encouraged to eat lots and lots and LOTS of
high-quality protein, fresh vegetables, and salt their food as much as they
want. This is the dirty little secret the mainstream OBs don't let get out.

One homebirth midwife I know, who's been doing about 40-80 births a year for
10+ years and practicing for more like 20 years, so out of literally a
thousand plus clients, has had TWO women EVER develop pre-eclampsia and risk
out; *both were vegetarians*. Gee, I have way more than two of my
mainstream friends who've developed pre-eclampsia.

The Farm in Tennessee has similar, almost non-existent rates of PE.

I think they are going to determine that a rare few babies develop such bad
placentas from the throw of the genetic dice, that there will always be some
unpreventable PE. But the rest of it, is completely preventable. But how
are women supposed to prevent it, when they go to the ivory tower, and the
god-OB there tells them there is no cause and no way to prevent? God-OBs
want to keep pregnancy and birth as shrouded in mysterious fear of
complications as possible, so we will be good little patients, and let them
do what they will, so they can be six-figure heros.

But I know what they really are.

-- Dagny