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#21
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Circe wrote: "lenny fackler" wrote in message ups.com... I'm definitely bringing my own perpective in because it's the only one that I have the authority to speak about. I have 2 happy healthy kids and my relationship with my wife is good. I'm 100% sure I don't want any more kids. She's a little less sure. I'm trying to picture her being so insistent on having another baby that she would break up the marriage. Could you imagine her being so insistent on having the first or the second baby that she would have broken up the marriage over it? The first maybe. Because we knew we wanted to have at least one. If I had changed my mind about that after we got married it would've been a big deal. It's hard to say for the second. We always said one or two. If you can, then you are deluding yourself to believe that just because you have two happy, healthy kids, her desire to have another child could not be just as overwhelming as her desire to have the first or the second. I'm not saying that it *is* that overwhelming, mind you, just that the fact that you already have two children doesn't have to play into the equation at all. It may not come into play concerning ones desire to have another, but it would be a factor in whether or not to stay married if there's a disagreement about having more. Breaking up your existing happy family because you want an additional child seems ludicrous. Not that the desire should be ignored, but there's got to be a way to deal with it that's not destructive. It certainly would have nothing to do with any definition of family values that I can think of. Lifestyle is broad though. What type of lifestyle would this be consistent with? Some people have family values and/or lifestyles that involve having more than two children. In some cases, a *lot* more than two children. For some people, having a large number of children may be a religious imperative, as well. One would hope that a couple would both have the same desire for a large family and/or the same religious imperatives, of course, but people can and do change in the course of a marriage. Certainly differences in religious beliefs can be a marriage breaker. Moreso if they develop later in the relationship. But the decision to have more babies would be secondary to those beliefs. I'll be honest: I have a far harder time understanding the position of the partner who is dead-set against having another child than the position of the partner who really wants that other child. Maybe that's because, even when my husband I decided we wouldn't be having any more children, we still want more children. But once you have children, having more children doesn't change anything essential: whether you have more or not, you're still parents with children! That's true and even though I wasn't gung ho about having a second I don't have any regrets now. It's just hard to imagine doing it again. The youngest is almost potty trained, we're just getting to the point where we can travel again, all of the baby clothes and toys are ready to be cleared out of the storage room where I can expand my workshop and home brewery, my wifes body is in pre-baby shape ;-), etc. At the same time, I feel the wishes of the partner who doesn't want another child take precedence over the wishes of the partner who does. But I can see how the views of a spouse who wants more children and a spouse who does not could collide and result in what is commonly called, in the industry, "irreconcilable differences". IOW, it winds up being more a matter of the world views of the partners no longer meshing than about having a another child. Yeah, I agree with that. -- Be well, Barbara Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3) I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan) |
#22
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"lenny fackler" wrote in message
oups.com... Circe wrote: Could you imagine her being so insistent on having the first or the second baby that she would have broken up the marriage over it? The first maybe. Because we knew we wanted to have at least one. If I had changed my mind about that after we got married it would've been a big deal. It's hard to say for the second. We always said one or two. Well, you know, my husband and I went into having children thinking the same as you: one or two. We really didn't even consider having three initially. But after the first one was born, my husband pretty quickly decided that two wouldn't be quite "enough" and that he wanted three. It took me a little longer to come around to that POV, but I pretty quickly discovered that I *always* want one or two kids: I just happen to keep wanting the one or two I don't have yet g! It's a weird phenomenon and impossible for me to explain on any rational basis, because I'm pefectly contented with the children I have; it's certainly not a matter of wanting to replace or better the ones I've got, as they couldn't be more wonderful. It's just that, well, there could be more children to be wonderful, if you see what I mean! If you can, then you are deluding yourself to believe that just because you have two happy, healthy kids, her desire to have another child could not be just as overwhelming as her desire to have the first or the second. I'm not saying that it *is* that overwhelming, mind you, just that the fact that you already have two children doesn't have to play into the equation at all. It may not come into play concerning ones desire to have another, but it would be a factor in whether or not to stay married if there's a disagreement about having more. Breaking up your existing happy family because you want an additional child seems ludicrous. Not that the desire should be ignored, but there's got to be a way to deal with it that's not destructive. And, of course, one way to deal with that desire to have another child, even if only one of the partners is completely sold on the idea. Another way is for the partner who wants the other child to come to the place I've reached, which is that while my heart may want another child, my head knows it won't work for any number of reasons. I'll be honest: I have a far harder time understanding the position of the partner who is dead-set against having another child than the position of the partner who really wants that other child. Maybe that's because, even when my husband I decided we wouldn't be having any more children, we still want more children. But once you have children, having more children doesn't change anything essential: whether you have more or not, you're still parents with children! That's true and even though I wasn't gung ho about having a second I don't have any regrets now. It's just hard to imagine doing it again. Well, I'm definitely with you there. My youngest is 3yo, and while I truly *adore* babies, the idea of doing the whole pregnancy-childbirth-infancy 24-7 again isn't as appealing as it once was (especially with my 41st birthday looming!). The youngest is almost potty trained, we're just getting to the point where we can travel again, Goodness, why would you let a baby/toddler keep you from travelling if you want to? We've been on three trips to Europe and one to Mexico since the youngest was 7 months old. (I'll admit, it was easier to travel with him at 7 months old than at 24 months--that was sort of interesting, mainly from a standpoint of the "bull in the china shop" factor--but the last two trips at 2y9m and 3yo were pretty easy, even though he's still in diapers). I know, I know, a lot of people aren't up for travelling with little kids. People think we're nuts to do it. But I think that most people would find it a lot of easier than they *imagine* it would be if they'd just be optimistic and do it (which is pretty much how we approach it). all of the baby clothes and toys are ready to be cleared out of the storage room where I can expand my workshop and home brewery, Okay, now I'm with you. The home brewery is *very* important g! my wifes body is in pre-baby shape ;-), I have to say, my husband likes me in "baby" shape. He sometimes jokes that I should put on 20 lbs. just so he can relive the pregnant wife experience for a little while. -- Be well, Barbara Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3) I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan) |
#23
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In article ,
Banty wrote: Why, exactly, is it more ethical (or even not unethical at all) to force another into parenting a child than to force another not to have a child? The deception that would be involved in forcing someone into parenting another child against their wishes is what makes that more unethical. And I would dispute the suggestion that there's force involved in declining to have another child; there may be a breakup of the relationship in order to get that additional child (or children), but the partner who doesn't want the additional child doesn't get to force the partner who does to stay in the relationship. |
#24
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lenny fackler wrote:
I'm definitely bringing my own perpective in because it's the only one that I have the authority to speak about. I have 2 happy healthy kids and my relationship with my wife is good. I'm 100% sure I don't want any more kids. She's a little less sure. I'm trying to picture her being so insistent on having another baby that she would break up the marriage. It certainly would have nothing to do with any definition of family values that I can think of. Lifestyle is broad though. What type of lifestyle would this be consistent with? What I mean is that it's not like someone would have the same life with two kids as with three (or six, or a dozen). The person who wants more kids probably wants more than just the exact same life as now, just with one more kid. It's tied up with a whole set of values (is it more important to have a big family or to be able to send every child to whatever college they want to go to? etc.) and a whole bunch of lifestyle expectations (better to have more kids or to go on big vacations every year? etc.). And, of course, no one ever said that people's hopes and dreams and desires are always rational. Frankly, having *any* children isn't very rational by a whole lot of measures. All the logic in the world doesn't necessarily remove the desire to have children, and some feel that desire strongly enough that it is a very powerful motivator. Best wishes, Ericka |
#25
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Ericka Kammerer wrote:
lenny fackler wrote: Maybe so, but if one person wants an additional child so badly that they would cause, or accept, or simply allow the destruction of their family, it would almost seem to me indicative of a mental illness or at least some serious underlying issues that having more kids isn't going to solve. I don't think that's necessarily true. Your statement is predicated upon certain values assumptions which not everyone might share. Also, the decision about having more kids tends to involve more than just the presence or absence of a child. It's also about family values and lifestyle and so forth. The person who very much wants another child likely has different ideas about those other things all wrapped up in the decision as well. Best wishes, Ericka That might be true, but it would seem better to me to work on what you *do* have rather than what you *don't* have. Why would you risk breaking a marriage and changing the lives of your existing children for something you don't have...albeit something you desire greatly? Mary Ann |
#26
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lenny fackler wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote: lenny fackler wrote: Ericka Kammerer wrote: It's a really tough situation, and can even be a marriage-breaker in some cases. When the issue is 'kids' vs. 'no kids' maybe, but you think a woman would break up a marriage because her husband doesn't want a third? That seems insane to me. In my opinion, if a couple already has two healthy children and disagree about having a third, the partner not wanting another child clearly has the upper hand. Of course, because it's not ethical to force the other parent into parenting another child. However, there are certainly women (and men) who have felt such a strong desire for another child that they were unable to continue in a marriage where that could not happen. One hopes such decisions are made only after a best faith effort on both sides, and counseling, and so forth, but if after all that, the bottom line is that the desire for another child is paramount, it's likely to spell the end of the marriage. Maybe so, but if one person wants an additional child so badly that they would cause, or accept, or simply allow the destruction of their family, it would almost seem to me indicative of a mental illness or at least some serious underlying issues that having more kids isn't going to solve. You're saying that if someone accepts that they will not have another child they have some serious underlying issues? I think acceptance (not resignation) is a good thing. Mary Ann |
#27
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In article , Mary Ann Tuli says...
lenny fackler wrote: Ericka Kammerer wrote: lenny fackler wrote: Ericka Kammerer wrote: It's a really tough situation, and can even be a marriage-breaker in some cases. When the issue is 'kids' vs. 'no kids' maybe, but you think a woman would break up a marriage because her husband doesn't want a third? That seems insane to me. In my opinion, if a couple already has two healthy children and disagree about having a third, the partner not wanting another child clearly has the upper hand. Of course, because it's not ethical to force the other parent into parenting another child. However, there are certainly women (and men) who have felt such a strong desire for another child that they were unable to continue in a marriage where that could not happen. One hopes such decisions are made only after a best faith effort on both sides, and counseling, and so forth, but if after all that, the bottom line is that the desire for another child is paramount, it's likely to spell the end of the marriage. Maybe so, but if one person wants an additional child so badly that they would cause, or accept, or simply allow the destruction of their family, it would almost seem to me indicative of a mental illness or at least some serious underlying issues that having more kids isn't going to solve. You're saying that if someone accepts that they will not have another child they have some serious underlying issues? I think acceptance (not resignation) is a good thing. Accepting that there will be one more child is also a good thing. Accepting compromises within marriage is a Good Thing. Banty |
#28
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Mary Ann Tuli wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote: I don't think that's necessarily true. Your statement is predicated upon certain values assumptions which not everyone might share. Also, the decision about having more kids tends to involve more than just the presence or absence of a child. It's also about family values and lifestyle and so forth. The person who very much wants another child likely has different ideas about those other things all wrapped up in the decision as well. That might be true, but it would seem better to me to work on what you *do* have rather than what you *don't* have. Why would you risk breaking a marriage and changing the lives of your existing children for something you don't have...albeit something you desire greatly? Well, sure, but since when have people always been 100 percent rational? As I said, hopefully a couple in such a situation would do a lot of talking and get counseling and so forth, but if that doesn't work, it's very likely to lead to trouble. And, of course, the person who's being inflexible about having more kids is just as involved as the person who's being inflexible about having another, barring objective impediments to having another (e.g., can't adequately care for another child financially, etc.). It's just all about being able to communicate and come to some terms that both people can live with. Best wishes, Ericka |
#29
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In article 8iW6e.6908$%c1.477@fed1read05, "Circe"
wrote: Maybe so, but if one person wants an additional child so badly that they would cause, or accept, or simply allow the destruction of their family, it would almost seem to me indicative of a mental illness or at least some serious underlying issues that having more kids isn't going to solve. Would you say the same if the couple were childless and one wanted one or more children while the other didn't? The desire to have more children than one currently has isn't more or less valid because one either does or does not have a particular number of them at present. The main difference is that breaking up a marriage when there are NO kids is between just two adults. Breaking up a marriage that already has one or more kids because one of you wants MORE kids and one doesn't has a negative effect on innocent children, so I'd be more inclined to think that both have more of a moral obligation to find a way to resolve this that does NOT end in divorce. -- Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care |
#30
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Circe wrote: "lenny fackler" wrote in message oups.com... Circe wrote: Could you imagine her being so insistent on having the first or the second baby that she would have broken up the marriage over it? The first maybe. Because we knew we wanted to have at least one. If I had changed my mind about that after we got married it would've been a big deal. It's hard to say for the second. We always said one or two. Well, you know, my husband and I went into having children thinking the same as you: one or two. We really didn't even consider having three initially. But after the first one was born, my husband pretty quickly decided that two wouldn't be quite "enough" and that he wanted three. It took me a little longer to come around to that POV, but I pretty quickly discovered that I *always* want one or two kids: I just happen to keep wanting the one or two I don't have yet g! It's a weird phenomenon and impossible for me to explain on any rational basis, because I'm pefectly contented with the children I have; it's certainly not a matter of wanting to replace or better the ones I've got, as they couldn't be more wonderful. It's just that, well, there could be more children to be wonderful, if you see what I mean! If you can, then you are deluding yourself to believe that just because you have two happy, healthy kids, her desire to have another child could not be just as overwhelming as her desire to have the first or the second. I'm not saying that it *is* that overwhelming, mind you, just that the fact that you already have two children doesn't have to play into the equation at all. It may not come into play concerning ones desire to have another, but it would be a factor in whether or not to stay married if there's a disagreement about having more. Breaking up your existing happy family because you want an additional child seems ludicrous. Not that the desire should be ignored, but there's got to be a way to deal with it that's not destructive. And, of course, one way to deal with that desire to have another child, even if only one of the partners is completely sold on the idea. Another way is for the partner who wants the other child to come to the place I've reached, which is that while my heart may want another child, my head knows it won't work for any number of reasons. I'll be honest: I have a far harder time understanding the position of the partner who is dead-set against having another child than the position of the partner who really wants that other child. Maybe that's because, even when my husband I decided we wouldn't be having any more children, we still want more children. But once you have children, having more children doesn't change anything essential: whether you have more or not, you're still parents with children! That's true and even though I wasn't gung ho about having a second I don't have any regrets now. It's just hard to imagine doing it again. Well, I'm definitely with you there. My youngest is 3yo, and while I truly *adore* babies, the idea of doing the whole pregnancy-childbirth-infancy 24-7 again isn't as appealing as it once was (especially with my 41st birthday looming!). The youngest is almost potty trained, we're just getting to the point where we can travel again, Goodness, why would you let a baby/toddler keep you from travelling if you want to? One didn't slow us too much. With two, flying became impractical. Since then we've stuck to low key road trips to the beach and camping. We've been on three trips to Europe and one to Mexico since the youngest was 7 months old. (I'll admit, it was easier to travel with him at 7 months old than at 24 months--that was sort of interesting, mainly from a standpoint of the "bull in the china shop" factor--but the last two trips at 2y9m and 3yo were pretty easy, even though he's still in diapers). I know, I know, a lot of people aren't up for travelling with little kids. People think we're nuts to do it. But I think that most people would find it a lot of easier than they *imagine* it would be if they'd just be optimistic and do it (which is pretty much how we approach it). I like the idea of taking them everywhere, but it hasn't been as enjoyable in practice. I'm starting to formulate some big plans for the next few years though. The last couple of trips we've taken have been without the kids, which we couldn't do when they were younger. This brings up another issue. We have family close to us and when we only had one child there were numerous offers to babysit for us. When we added a second those offers trickled down to almost nothing. As they get older it's easier to find an occasional sitter. all of the baby clothes and toys are ready to be cleared out of the storage room where I can expand my workshop and home brewery, Okay, now I'm with you. The home brewery is *very* important g! my wifes body is in pre-baby shape ;-), I have to say, my husband likes me in "baby" shape. He sometimes jokes that I should put on 20 lbs. just so he can relive the pregnant wife experience for a little while. -- I don't care as much as she does about her being in shape. But she's happy and that's a good thing. When she starts to think about having another baby I think that one of the thing she forgets is how miserable she was in the late stages of pregnancy and early post partum. |
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