first day of kindergarten and homework!

"KenG" wrote in message
oups.com...
I noticed your conversation and would like to chime in. I'm a
psychologist and have been studying this issue of homework policy for
quite a while. I'm co-authoring a book with Dr. Jay Kuder, an
educational professor from Rowan University, called The Homework Trap.
Our book should be out in 2007.

Dr. Kuder and I are critics of homework policy. You concerns are just
a tip of the iceberg. It's my opinion that homework policy is highly
flawed because it is content based, not time based, and because parents
do not have final say over what will happen. I have great respect for
teachers and defer to them completely in devising the curriculum. If
they think some homework is good for children in early grades, I don't
have a problem with that. The problem comes up when their ideas and
suggestions turn into mandates for the child and parents. In the end,
you as the parent are the only one who sees what happens, in your home,
when your child attempts the work. There may be children for whom the
assignment given proves fun and enriching and not a problem. But if
you, as a parent, start having problems getting your child to comply,
you will find yourself virtually trapped. While it may not show in
kindergarten, your child's grades will start going downhill as zeros
are given out for work not done. While this seems fair in one way, it
also places children who can't do the work quickly in a bind where
their only option for avoiding low grades is cutting deeply into their
personal time, and for you, into your family time.

It's important to keep in mind that the school day is fixed by the
clock. Regardless of what goes on in the school, it ends at a
designated time. If parents lack the authority to bring the homework
assignment to a close when time is up, this will actually create
conflict at home and destine the child for problems later on.

I apologize for any grammatical errors in this message. I certainly
take care to write more precisely when writing my book. But I'm kind
of crunched for time right now, but could not resist replying to your
conversation when it popped up in my email (I have Google send me any
conversations that have the word homework in them).

I would be happy to address this issue in more detail at a later time.
Feel free to contact me at . If you
like, Dr. Kuder and I are available to make presentations on this topic
in different communities.

Ken Goldberg, Ph.D.

I am glad someone is writing a book about this. Maybe it will wake some
people up and start a national trend back to something more reasonable. I
feel the reason for the homework is the parents who think it's so wonderful.
The schools here test well and they must think it's because of all the
homework. I'm sure it's because they teach to the test, but that's how our
whole district is, not just DS's school.

On 11 Aug 2006 11:49:26 -0700, "frank megaweege"
wrote:

30 minutes of school assignments outside of the classroom
just does not seem like too much to ask.

In Kindergarten? These are 5 year olds, not older kids. The value of
homework in the lower grades has not been proven. I think a little
bit once in a while is fine, but not every night and not 30 minutes
worth for this age. Most 5 year olds still struggle with writing and
they need to get their fine motor skills up to par first.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:41:54 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:

If he's sick, he's supposed to make up the homework. He will still get a
prize, if he makes up the homework. As far as I can see, this teacher will
give out prizes for the entire year. If they don't give stickers or prizes
later, like it first grade, I think it will be okay, because none of the
students will get stickers or prizes. As it is right now, he will be one of
the few not to get his stickers or prizes if he does not cooperate.

Ugh.... This kind of sticker and reward system teaches children to
value getting prizes not to work because they want to learn the
skills. I HATE this even if it is only in kindergarten. An occasional
prize or sticker is one thing, but every week?


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

wrote:
-L. wrote:


I sort of agree. Heck, my 2.5 year old does almost that much every
day, with crayons. Of course he can't write well yet, but will sit and
write a series of letters, as I tell him which ones to write. He
sometimes will sit in his chair and "work" for an hour and a half or
more, which includes coloring and writing.

That's a really unusual attention span for that age. It's great that he
can do that, but I wouldn't expect most 2.5-year-olds to be able to do
that, especially on an activity they hadn't chosen themselves.

--Helen

He does choose the activity - he will ask for "paper" and "crayons" and
then "draw" and "letters." He also will sit for 45 minutes or more and
rum on his drum, or play with his guitar by himself. Other people have
commented on his ability to focus on his drum (probably because they
aren't used to the constant drumming! LOL...). I just have sort of
taken it for granted because he entertains himself easily (but often
will ask me to play with him, too).

-L.

"L." wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
-L. wrote:


I sort of agree. Heck, my 2.5 year old does almost that much every
day, with crayons. Of course he can't write well yet, but will sit and
write a series of letters, as I tell him which ones to write. He
sometimes will sit in his chair and "work" for an hour and a half or
more, which includes coloring and writing.

That's a really unusual attention span for that age. It's great that he
can do that, but I wouldn't expect most 2.5-year-olds to be able to do
that, especially on an activity they hadn't chosen themselves.

--Helen

He does choose the activity - he will ask for "paper" and "crayons" and
then "draw" and "letters." He also will sit for 45 minutes or more and
rum on his drum, or play with his guitar by himself. Other people have
commented on his ability to focus on his drum (probably because they
aren't used to the constant drumming! LOL...). I just have sort of
taken it for granted because he entertains himself easily (but often
will ask me to play with him, too).

That is the point. He chooses those activities. If it were assigned
homework that he didn't get to choose, it might be a different story. Maybe
not. You might have an unusual kid. That others marvel on his ability to
focus tells you that's not the norm.

Caledonia wrote:
frank megaweege wrote:
Caledonia wrote:
frank megaweege wrote:
toypup wrote:
DS finished the first day of kindergarten yesterday. For his homework, he
had to write his name, color a house, write his address, draw a picture of
someone he wants to talk on the phone with, write his phone number. It took
about half an hour and he was exhausted. Afterward, we were supposed to
read, but I wasn't going there.

I was expecting homework, I thought maybe write one letter of the alphabet,
but this is ridiculous. I told DH and he agreed, saying there many kids
coming into kindergarten not even reading much less writing addresses. We
happen to have a very long address, so it wasn't easy. Anyway, just
venting. Today, there is more homework, but I tried to get some of it out
of the way this morning before school so he is not overwhelmed after school.

I'm surprised so many agree and sympathize with you.
30 minutes worth of writing his name, address and phone number and
coloring a couple of pictures doesn't sound 'exhausting',
'overwhelming' or 'ridiculous'. Maybe you don't think it's the best
use of time if you had other productive activities planned instead, but
many kids would otherwise be plopped in front of the tv if there
weren't some structured assignments.

I think you'd probably consider me to be a slacker, then. Instead of
having my five-year-old in K copying out her name, address, and phone
number, she'd write up stories with her wacky phonetic spelling, or
create strange scenarios involving her stuffed animals, creatures that
she'd color, and tiny plastic animals all battling
whatever-Norse-God-story-we'd-just-read for control of under the dining
room table.

I came up with none of these scenarios, nor the idea of creating odd
'magic' doors in our hallways out of masking tape and butcher paper,
nor the strange ballads she'd sing to our dogs -- they're not big-P
Productive, but in my estimation, they're what kindergarteners should
be doing with their time. Not the rote copying out for 30 minutes --
given my daughter, though, this would end up being 10 minutes of
copying, then a break, then 10 minutes of copying -- so instead of
dedicating 2 1/2 hours a week to this stuff, it'd be closer to 4 1/2
hours.


It wasn't rote copying for 30 minutes. It was writing name address and
phone number (no way that takes 30 minutes) and coloring two pictures.
You should have plenty of time left over to play dress up.

This may be one of those YMMV experiences, but at five (this is K), DD1
hadn't learned 'chunking' terms to assist in memorization, so I would
have written out her name, address, and phone number as the address
itself was somewhat meaningless to her, and she would have copied it,
slooowly and painstakingly.

I haven't played 'dress up' since I left consulting.

I encourage my child to take
pride in completing a task to the best of his abilities (even if the
task itself is of questionable value- give the teacher some benefit of
the doubt). 30 minutes of school assignments outside of the classroom
just does not seem like too much to ask.

For me, rote copying for a five-year-old doesn't strike me as either
little-p productive or big-P Productive, but as a 'no-input-required'
activity calculated to fill up time -- unless, of course, the whole
point is to introduce five-year-olds to the concept of activities that
will just 'fill up' time.


I don't want much of my 6 year olds time to be filled with boring rote
activities, but a certain amount of that is necessary in learning to
write (physically that is, as opposed to creatively).

Physical writing, I've noticed in my very limited sample set of
volunteering in a first grade class (that's age 6 here) improves over
time with experience -- at the start of 1st grade, kids' handwriting
was all over the place and LARGE. By the end of the year, they were
using narrow-ruled paper, and I'd wager that 95% of the kids were
writing (letter formation and content) clearly. In K, some kids were
still used to using primarily upper-case letters most of the time...

This was accomplished, during the past year (1st grade), by having kids
keep journals and write stories -- it was neat to assemble these things
and notice the evolution of story structure, spelling, and letter
formation. There was none of the 'copy this sheet 10x' that I remember
from 1st (not K) grade.

Heck, back in K in my day, we still napped -- and it was only a
half-day K.

I guess at 30 minutes my limit isn't crossed. To me it's not too much
but to you and others it is. So how much wouldn't be too much?

For a 5 year old, an amount of 'required homework' that I feel
comfortable with is zip. A great optional weekly assignment would be to
describe something that happened -- either with a picture, words, or
combo thereof for the 'show and tell' part of class. And for a 5yo,
that amount, to me, wouldn't be 'too much.'

Conversely, what's your goal in having a 5 yo do 30 minutes of homework
a day?


[stayed away from the computer this weekend]

To be honest, I'm somewhat playing devil's advocate, because my
kindergartner didn't have 30 minutes of homework every night. He had
something most days, probably averaging more like 10 or 15 minutes.
Occasionally it took 30 or more.
My inclination is to support the teacher and the school in their
mission and to accept that every policy may not be ideal for each
individual child. My peeve on this issue is the sense that some
parents seem antagonistic towards the role of public education. To a
certain extent, when you're child enters school, you are giving him up
to the collective. The policies and curriculum cannot cater to every
person's lifestyle and beliefs.
If some aspect of my child's education becomes too out of sync with
what I believe, the first step would be to schedule a meeting with the
teacher. Out of curiosity, has anyone who is bemoaning the amount of
homework discussed it with the teacher? Did you arrive at any
understanding or remedy?

[stayed away from the computer this weekend]

To be honest, I'm somewhat playing devil's advocate, because my
kindergartner didn't have 30 minutes of homework every night. He had
something most days, probably averaging more like 10 or 15 minutes.
Occasionally it took 30 or more.
My inclination is to support the teacher and the school in their
mission and to accept that every policy may not be ideal for each
individual child. My peeve on this issue is the sense that some
parents seem antagonistic towards the role of public education. To a
certain extent, when you're child enters school, you are giving him up
to the collective.


We've become The Borg?

The policies and curriculum cannot cater to every
person's lifestyle and beliefs.
If some aspect of my child's education becomes too out of sync with
what I believe, the first step would be to schedule a meeting with the
teacher. Out of curiosity, has anyone who is bemoaning the amount of
homework discussed it with the teacher? Did you arrive at any
understanding or remedy?

frank megaweege wrote:

To be honest, I'm somewhat playing devil's advocate, because my
kindergartner didn't have 30 minutes of homework every night. He had
something most days, probably averaging more like 10 or 15 minutes.
Occasionally it took 30 or more.
My inclination is to support the teacher and the school in their
mission and to accept that every policy may not be ideal for each
individual child. My peeve on this issue is the sense that some
parents seem antagonistic towards the role of public education. To a
certain extent, when you're child enters school, you are giving him up
to the collective. The policies and curriculum cannot cater to every
person's lifestyle and beliefs.

I agree with that in general, but that doesn't mean
that the school doesn't have some obligation to provide a
high quality education, which in my opinion means following
best practices, insofar as they're known. Since there is
precious little evidence to support the effectiveness of
massive homework loads and plenty of evidence to support
their negative effects (at least in "normal" circumstances),
I have a problem with the notion of assigning too much
homework. I would have the same problem if they were
using a poor quality textbook, poor teaching methodologies,
etc. I think supporting the school *MEANS* holding them
to high standards when they have made unfortunate choices.
Now, in the grand scheme of things, there may
be "best practices" that are not good for my individual
child. I understand that, and am perfectly willing to
work around those things. But when there are practices
that are not beneficial in general and that are harmful
to my child, I'm certainly going to speak up.

If some aspect of my child's education becomes too out of sync with
what I believe, the first step would be to schedule a meeting with the
teacher. Out of curiosity, has anyone who is bemoaning the amount of
homework discussed it with the teacher? Did you arrive at any
understanding or remedy?

Of course, at least for me. I usually have to have
that discussion a few times a year. Generally, the teachers
are amazed that the homework is taking so long (but then,
our school's official policy is 10 minutes/grade level/night).
Sometimes it's hard for me to understand how they could
imagine that the homework they assigned was going to fit
into the prescribed timeframe for pretty much any of the
kids, but it appears sometimes their estimation skills are
wonky. They usually back off a bit for a little while and
then the homework load creeps up again.
But that's different from the OP's situation. We
have an official policy that specifies a much more reasonable
level of homework. Her school has an official policy that
specifies a level of homework that is flat out unacceptable
(at least to me) and unsupported by any research that I'm
aware of. (There is some support for heavy homework loads
for at risk students, but it is unlikely that that is
generalizable to all student populations.) I can guarantee
that the level of homework they propose will likely have
significant effects on the family, even if they can manage
to keep the attitude positive. Worse yet, given that it's
difficult to estimate the amount of time it will take kids
to do any given homework assignment, there are likely to
be quite a few times when it will take longer than the
prescribed amount of time to do the homework. It simply
seems patently absurd that a 3rd grader should be putting
in more than a 40 hour work week!
There's just so much that is wrong with that
level of homework. It is incredibly frustrating for
the kids. They're fading fast long before the homework
is done. It takes superhuman effort from the parents
to keep most of them on task long enough to finish--
and what takes 1.5 hours of normal attention takes
a *lot* longer when you're tired and can't hold your
concentration. It means that a huge proportion of the
time parent and child spend interacting during the
week will be spent interacting over homework, probably
with the parent having to keep the kid's nose to the
grindstone. It means that everything in family life
will revolve around making time for homework. In reality,
what happens is that kids go to bed waaaaay too late
in order to squeeze everything in, which is damaging
to their ability to learn well during the day and
concentrate for homework, which starts a vicious cycle
that is very difficult to break. It simply isn't right
for schools to put families in that position.
And really, the options parents have are very
limited. The OP has almost no recourse because she
signed a statement that she knew and would support
the homework policy. She doesn't have much of anything
to do unless the homework exceed the stated limits,
but if she does, they'll probably just recommend that
she move her kid out of the school. I'll bet dollars
to doughnuts that parents at that school don't complain
about the homework because they're afraid of being
pushed out of the magnet school and they believe that
it's "the" school to be at. And the test scores probably
bear this out. The parents willing to deal with this
are probably parents who are very devoted to education
and would have kids who would do well academically
wherever they were.
Even when the official homework policy is
less onerous, parents have limited recourse. In my
experience, very few parents speak up about homework
loads. They talk amongst themselves about it, but
they're afraid of being seen as unsupportive of the
teacher or of education (just as you accused), so
they fear speaking up. The few who do speak up often
get pooh-poohed, with a clear implication that it's
just the kid's problem.
Around here, I'm only recently
seeing more folks get fed up enough to say something.
I think DS1's teachers last year got a real awakening.
They had a great many projects, and apparently enough
parents said something about the huge amounts of time
that were going into them at home. So, the teachers
decided to make many of them in class projects. They'd
allocate an hour or so a day to work on the project,
and by George, they found that an hour a day (during
school, before the kids were tired at the end of the
day) wasn't enough to meet the deadlines they'd set!
They had to extend deadlines, trim scope, and even
delete some projects. The rest of us were all sitting
at home thinking, yeah, our kids were doing that
hour a day at home and still getting behind and still
having other homework to do *on top of* the projects
every day. It was insane, and finally the teachers
started to realize it. It's not that the projects
weren't good. They were fun, creative, educational
projects. They simply took too much time. But that
was one success story out of many failures. Most
people I know who go to talk about homework loads
are basically unsuccessful at getting any resolution,
even those who go in with a very positive and
cooperative attitude.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Caledonia" wrote in message
ps.com...
I think no one is saying that sitting for 30 minutes to do stuff is far
too much to ask -- my perspective is that at K, a 5yo has already done
6 hours of this in school, and I'm more inclined to want a kid to spend
their afterschool time -- which for us, was probably about ~3 hours,
prior to dinner and reading and bed routines -- at that age 'doing
their own thing' (their own coloring, their own stories, reading and
being read to, playing, even) versus having another half-hour of
instruction.

In California kindergarten is mandated to be 3 hours and 20 minutes. Many
school districts can't offer more than that because they don't have the
classroom space. (They run two half day classes in each class room.) Our
district offers a full day (5.5 hour) kindergarten that is optional. If you
take the full day kindergarten you are at a different campus than you will
be in first grade, as all the full day kindergartens are at a campus set up
for only special programs. If you don't mind the half day kindergarten they
get to be at the same school they will be going to for grades 1-6. Yet
given the choice of half day or full day, most parents pick the full day.

Note, in this district homework is not allowed until second semester of 1st
grade, so this really has nothing to do with homework. Just an observation
that perhaps parents are the ones pushing more schooling.

Cathy Kearns wrote:

In California kindergarten is mandated to be 3 hours and 20 minutes. Many
school districts can't offer more than that because they don't have the
classroom space. (They run two half day classes in each class room.) Our
district offers a full day (5.5 hour) kindergarten that is optional. If you
take the full day kindergarten you are at a different campus than you will
be in first grade, as all the full day kindergartens are at a campus set up
for only special programs. If you don't mind the half day kindergarten they
get to be at the same school they will be going to for grades 1-6. Yet
given the choice of half day or full day, most parents pick the full day.

Note, in this district homework is not allowed until second semester of 1st
grade, so this really has nothing to do with homework. Just an observation
that perhaps parents are the ones pushing more schooling.

Not to be too cynical, but how much of that is due
to wanting more schooling and how much to wanting more
childcare? ;-) Also, with so many kids in full time child
care prior to kindergarten, more kids are ready for full
day kindy than previously. Personally, I haven't seen a
lot of correlation between those who want full day kindy
and those who want more homework (or vice versa). I
certainly know lots of folks who want full day kindy
but still don't want a lot of homework. I would agree,
however, that if you have half day kindy, a half hour
of homework isn't as difficult to manage as it is if
you have a full day kindy.
There certainly are parents who want to keep up
with the Joneses and have more homework. There's a lot
of that around here, which is part of the reason that
homework gets out of line. There seem to be a number of
folks who equate lots of homework with a good education
and want to brag to their friends who are shelling out
for private school that *their* kids are getting even
*more* homework in public school. Aren't they smart--
getting a better education for free! But of course the
notion that more homework = better education is just
bogus. And those tend to be the same people who are
dragging their kids to dozens of different activities
and the poor kids are stressed out and sleep-deprived.
Fortunately, that's a minority, but it's a fairly vocal
one around here. If others are too afraid to speak up,
those other voices win out and we all get stuck holding
the bag to feed someone else's ego.

Best wishes,
Ericka