speech deteriorating

As are Anne's children, as well as being exposed to
proper English at home.

Despite plenty of exposure to American English, due to TV, movies,
Americans living in the UK a brief time living here myself 6 yrs ago,
the difference in the language is much more than I originally realised.
There are the obvious word differences, which don't number that great a
percentage of the whole language, but are much more significant in a
child's language. Then there is expressions the common expression for
most things is a completely different phrase. Being older and less fast
to change a few turns of phrase have crept into our conversations at
home, but none of the vocabulary. In the grand scheme of things, I'm not
worried about his long term command of the English language, in whatever
variety he ends up with, the short term undecipherable accent changes do
worry me a little, with September and new teachers coming up, but I
probably am over worried about it.

The concerns about school are much more everything else schools with
high percentages without English as a first average do tend to perform
worse, but of course it's only statistics, it says nothing about this
particular school. Talking to respected American friends they do attach
importance to the rate of non english speakers and also rate who get
free school meals.

I've got access to ITBS results for 3rd grade and the school looks like
it's improving in all areas, but I don't know if the resulting scores
are good for reading the total is 70, Mathematics total is 83, language
scores 78. Which looks good compared to the rest of the district, but I
know that gifted and talented programs are hosted at this school, so
those could be included in the main result.

I also should have 4th and 5th grade WASL scores, but after reading the
explaination the actual results couldn't be pulled up.

I've been trying to figure out what having the gifted and talented
program hosted there means, it seems that top students throughout the
district from grades 1-5 all form an extra class at this particular school.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, I've always had the beleive
schooling can be enhanced at home it was how I was brought up as we
ended up in a poor school for a few years - it was my weak subjects that
were harmed, they were quite happy to le me work through a different
maths book, but I never learnt how to write a paragraph!

Cheers
Anne

In article , toypup says...

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:19:01 -0400, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Anne Rogers wrote:
I just found the figure, the elementary school he will go to has 58% who
don't have English as a first language and I suspect that figure will be
going up given how the area seems to be changing.

Honestly, I wouldn't be particularly worried. When you
get right down to it, he'll still spend most of his time with
native English speakers between you, teachers, and his friends
who are native English speakers. I think it's probably more likely
that he's just experimenting or playing a bit and that this will
not be a long lasting phase. Or, if it is, it may be indicative
of something like hearing issues rather than his environment.
We live in a very diverse areas, and it really hasn't been an
issue for us. I think some bumps along the road of language
acquisition are fairly common, though. You want to keep an
eye on them in case they persist, but otherwise I wouldn't
worry particularly.

I think it depends on how diverse it is. I lived once where nearly the
entire population spoke Spanish. It was a farming community in California,
fairly small. The children learned and spoke English in school, but
everyone had an accent, even if they grew up in California. Heck, I was an
adult and didn't live there long, but I started to speak with a Mexican
accent after awhile, with the incorrect syntax to boot. Anyway, their
English was not good. I'm talking about the American born kids.

I had a Stanford professor whom I thought grew up in Arkansas when I first met
him (I grew up in north Texas and recognized the accent).

He grew up in King City, California, which is in the Salinas valley, a big
agricultural region. Grapes of Wrath and all that..

Banty

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

toypup wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:19:01 -0400, Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Anne Rogers wrote:
I just found the figure, the elementary school he will go to has 58% who
don't have English as a first language and I suspect that figure will be
going up given how the area seems to be changing.
Honestly, I wouldn't be particularly worried. When you
get right down to it, he'll still spend most of his time with
native English speakers between you, teachers, and his friends
who are native English speakers. I think it's probably more likely
that he's just experimenting or playing a bit and that this will
not be a long lasting phase. Or, if it is, it may be indicative
of something like hearing issues rather than his environment.
We live in a very diverse areas, and it really hasn't been an
issue for us. I think some bumps along the road of language
acquisition are fairly common, though. You want to keep an
eye on them in case they persist, but otherwise I wouldn't
worry particularly.

I think it depends on how diverse it is. I lived once where nearly the
entire population spoke Spanish. It was a farming community in California,
fairly small. The children learned and spoke English in school, but
everyone had an accent, even if they grew up in California. Heck, I was an
adult and didn't live there long, but I started to speak with a Mexican
accent after awhile, with the incorrect syntax to boot. Anyway, their
English was not good. I'm talking about the American born kids.

If it's all Spanish-speaking, it's not very diverse, eh? ;-)

Ericka had a lot of Canadians where she grew up...

gdr

Banty

toypup wrote:

I don't know how successful the programs
are in terms of developing fluency in the foreign language, but my
point was that while this is a *lot* of exposure to a different
language, the kids nevertheless don't seem to have any problem
speaking English...

It's not only speaking that I worry about, more the reading and writing,
the subtleties of written and spoken English.

The overall test scores here don't seem to suggest there
are any issues with that in the partial immersion schools. The
kids I know in the program (I know several kids in the Spanish
program, a few in the French program, and a couple in the Japanese
program) all speak well enough that I only knew they were in
the partial immersion program because their parents told me.
I've only seen written work from a couple of them, but it seems
par for the course to me.

I don't think the kids in your area would have a problem with spoken
English because it is their native tongue and all the kids speak English
when not in 50 percent of their classes.

And Anne's son is speaking English at home and, I presume,
in *all* of his classes, and likely with teachers who speak proper
English. Hence, I really don't think that having even a substantial
fraction of his classmates speaking English with an accent is going
to affect his ability to speak and write proper English in the long
run.

with English. Thus, I'm imagining that Anne's son, who is exposed
to proper English at home and (I assume) from his teacher(s), if not
all the other students, is very likely to end up speaking proper
English.

I am just thinking of the extreme scenario I saw in that farming community
when OP mentioned her son being the only native English speaker and his
hearing a consistent non-American accent, mainly Indian. If the school is
more diverse than that, I don't really see a problem.

It sounds like this was just one preschool class that was
primarily Indian kids, and that Anne expects a more diverse environment
in next year's preschool class, and an even more diverse environment
in elementary school after that. Even if it is a bit over 50 percent
with English as a second language in elementary school, they're
still all speaking English, albeit with an accent, and proper English
is being spoken at home and by the teacher. I just really don't think
this is a big deal, all other things being normal. It may lead to
a few bumps in the road during early language acquisition akin to
those experienced by bilingual kids, but I just wouldn't expect any
long term issues.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Anne Rogers wrote:

Despite plenty of exposure to American English, due to TV, movies,
Americans living in the UK a brief time living here myself 6 yrs ago,
the difference in the language is much more than I originally realised.
There are the obvious word differences, which don't number that great a
percentage of the whole language, but are much more significant in a
child's language. Then there is expressions the common expression for
most things is a completely different phrase. Being older and less fast
to change a few turns of phrase have crept into our conversations at
home, but none of the vocabulary. In the grand scheme of things, I'm not
worried about his long term command of the English language, in whatever
variety he ends up with, the short term undecipherable accent changes do
worry me a little, with September and new teachers coming up, but I
probably am over worried about it.

I think that's probably the case.

The concerns about school are much more everything else schools with
high percentages without English as a first average do tend to perform
worse, but of course it's only statistics, it says nothing about this
particular school. Talking to respected American friends they do attach
importance to the rate of non english speakers and also rate who get
free school meals.

But lots of people are downright ignorant about how to
evaluate schools, and there's a lot of outright "white flight"
based on little more than rank prejudice. Yes, it's true that
if you have a lot of disadvantaged children, the overall test
scores will likely be lower. But that doesn't tell you a whole
lot about what the opportunities will be for *your* child, who
isn't subject to those advantages. The instruction may be
excellent, and it's simply that one can't erase all those
disadvantages in the blink of an eye. The questions are how
is the classroom environment? Safe? Conducive to learning?
Are the teachers skilled? How do they handle meeting all kids
at their ability level and challenging them to move forward?
If you child has the ability to do more, will he be given the
opportunity to do more? Unfortunately, test scores don't really
tell you that, and most people don't look any further than the
test scores and the rumor mill to evaluate schools.

I've got access to ITBS results for 3rd grade and the school looks like
it's improving in all areas, but I don't know if the resulting scores
are good for reading the total is 70, Mathematics total is 83, language
scores 78. Which looks good compared to the rest of the district, but I
know that gifted and talented programs are hosted at this school, so
those could be included in the main result.

They probably are. That's yet another reason that test
scores aren't the be all and end all of evaluating schools. On
the other hand, the existence of a GT program is one indicator
that the school system is doing *something* to meet the needs
of children with varied abilities.

I also should have 4th and 5th grade WASL scores, but after reading the
explaination the actual results couldn't be pulled up.

I've been trying to figure out what having the gifted and talented
program hosted there means, it seems that top students throughout the
district from grades 1-5 all form an extra class at this particular school.

Probably. In practical terms, it means that if your child
gets into the center-based GT program, he or she won't have to be
bused to another school to participate.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, I've always had the beleive
schooling can be enhanced at home it was how I was brought up as we
ended up in a poor school for a few years - it was my weak subjects that
were harmed, they were quite happy to le me work through a different
maths book, but I never learnt how to write a paragraph!

I think if you want to know about a school, the best
things to do are to visit the school (maybe do a little
volunteering) and talk to people whose children are actually
there. I don't know if your school system has such a thing,
but in ours, you can sign up for various email groups. There's
one run by the school district that sends you announcements
related to schools and programs you choose. Also, the schools
usually have a PTA or some other email list you can join.
Those things often give you a good feel as to what's going on.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

If it's all Spanish-speaking, it's not very diverse, eh? ;-)

Ericka had a lot of Canadians where she grew up...

gdr

;-) Actually, did spend a lovely three winters in
Sault Ste. Marie, MI...

Best wishes,
Ericka

toypup wrote:

snip
It's not only speaking that I worry about, more the reading and writing,
the subtleties of written and spoken English.

I know lots of biligual speakers. Many think they speak English well, and
they do. However, they do miss the subtleties of the language and that can
be a problem.

That may be more a reflection of them than it is of their schooling
and language. IOW, maybe even if they were instructed wholly in
English from birth, they might still miss the subtleties of language.

Or it may be that they are fine in their first language and are fluent
and have mastered the subtleties there, but English is in effect their
second language.

Or perhaps they stopped having instruction in English after early
elementary school.

IMO, the individual teacher is more important than anything else. If
you have a good teacher, he or she will be a good teacher regardless
of the ethnic or language make-up of the class or whether it is a
'good' or 'poor' school.

OTOH you can have an excellent school with good programs and motivated
students and educated affluent parents and a child has a poor or
inexperienced teacher, and you will not have an optimum learning
experience for that child. If the child doesn't learn to write
paragraphs, for instance, I think it is more due to the teacher than
to the school (at least in the US)

I went to a good public school in a good area, and I never learned any
formal grammar nor did I have any phonics. The phonics was because
that wasn't taught when I went to school. I don't know about the
grammar - was it not taught, or was I just not paying attention. My
mom was a stickler for good spoken and written English and she was my
primary teacher in that respect.

My dd#2 had a Spanish nanny for her second child when the child was a
baby and toddler, and the child did learn some Spanish words, but I
don't think she is at all fluent in Spanish - i don't think she
understands it either, although I could be wrong about that - she
lives in Miami.

My mom spent a lot of her early childhood and first grade in North
Carolina where her mom was from. When she started to go to school in
Pennsylvania, where her dad was from, and where they lived for the
rest of her school time, she was teased about her southern accent. So
she deliberately lost it. (not that I am advocating teasing)

Hi --

Our older son had astonishingly good enunciation when he was first
learning to speak. Over time his enunciation "relaxed" until it "fit
in" better with the enunciation of those around him.

Confounding factors for our son that may apply to yours:

- TOngue thrust, leading to jetting of the upper teeth and now, as a
tween, to upper and lower braces.
- Pacifier, although we were adamant that he never have it in his mouth
when speaking. (And by 18 months he was only allowed it in his crib.)
- Foreign language exposure. He's had teachers who are native speakers
of other languages, and a nanny who spoke only Spanish to him.

I honstly think that so many tiny children enunciate poorly that the
native language that his peers spoke was irrelevant.

I hope these thoughts help,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

If it's all Spanish-speaking, it's not very diverse, eh? ;-)

Ericka had a lot of Canadians where she grew up...

gdr

;-) Actually, did spend a lovely three winters in
Sault Ste. Marie, MI...

See, and it ruined you for good! Anne does have something to worry about...



Banty

Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...
Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...
If it's all Spanish-speaking, it's not very diverse, eh? ;-)
Ericka had a lot of Canadians where she grew up...

gdr
;-) Actually, did spend a lovely three winters in
Sault Ste. Marie, MI...

See, and it ruined you for good! Anne does have something to worry about...

Hee hee. Well, sadly, there are probably a bunch of
other potential influences as well--plenty of blame to go
around! Actually, the biggest user of "eh" in my life was
probably my midwestern grandfather (who lived with us for
many years). I'm really not sure how he came by that. I
think his family did come through Canada, but at least a
generation or two before him and I don't think they were
in Canada long (just passing through, I think). Now, DH's
paternal relations were hundreds of years in Canada before
heading to the US (Mass.), but no "eh" from them ;-)
Of course, I have an odd and extensive collection
of colloquialisms between growing up a military brat and
having close connections with grandparents (and thus
picking up many older phrases as well as contemporary ones).

Best wishes,
Ericka