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#71
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Preparing sibling for birth process?
In the gender-defined jobs of the past, women did HUGE amounts of physical labor. In many parts of the world women still do so today. If you don't think hauling water from a well or river to your family's home is physical labor (just one example) then you've clearly never tried it. The traditional difference has been that women's labor tends to allow them to also do childcare, and can be shared with other women when pregnancy interferes with the heaviest jobs. Men's physical labor may be further from the home. There are other differences, of course. But the big change in labor roles in the 20th century came from control over reproduction. Birth control has changed our society enormously, probably more than any other single invention. --Beth Kevles -THE-COM-HERE http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner. NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the GMAIL one if you would like me to reply. |
#72
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Preparing sibling for birth process?
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#73
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Preparing sibling for birth process?
In article , toypup says...
wrote in message ... I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a button, women will jump on that opportunity. And why not? If a woman can do It as well as or better than a man and she wants to do it, why not? This air conditioned office thing is just plain silly. There are female soldiers, female firefighters, female ironworkers, female atheletes. Never mind recent examples, we have Clara Barton working in hot battlefields, Jane Goodall working and living in jungles. I guess he imagines it's the women shouldn't swe..., um, perspire. It's the woman-on-pedestal thing. It's the old expectation that she be an object of admiration for physical looks, while fulfilling a limited set of roles. That's long been confused with 'respect'. Banty |
#74
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Preparing sibling for birth process?
On Apr 6, 4:45*pm, Sarah Vaughan wrote:
wrote: On Mar 24, 9:09 am, Sarah Vaughan wrote: wrote: [...] So yes, a traditional marriage of the "50's" where a woman is not selfish and is supportive of her husband is much better than a modern marriage with a high divorce rate. [...] As I understand it, the traditional marriages to which you refer have two salient features: 1. One partner gives up their career, or their chance at having a career, in order to take care of all the cleaning, cooking, and childcare needs of the couple. Ideally, one person should stay home with the children. When they're young, yes. *That doesn't mean the entire job should fall to a single person within the marriage. *For many marriages, it might work very well for both partners to work part-time so that they can split childcare between them. *Or for the two to alternate the time they take off so that first one person takes a career break of a couple of years, then the other. The obvious problem is that working half the hours often means earning less than 50% of the original income, because part-timers are much less likely to progress within their organizations to positions of greater responsibility and pay. It also shuts you out of certain high- paying careers, such as investment banking or management consulting. Often, a couple can maximize its income by having one spouse work full time, and almost always that spouse is the husband, in part because few men want to be full-time dads. A woman can stay at home for a few years when the children are young and resume her career later. I believe that's what, for example, Nancy Pelosi (speaker of the House), mother of five, did. It's easier to do if the educational system does not retard one's progress, as it can in the U.S. For example, a doctor here will attend a four-year college and then go to medical school for another 4 years, maybe graduating at 26. My wife tells me that in India, aspiring doctors are effectively taking pre-med classes in what would be 10th to 12th grade here, and one graduates from medical school at 23. In both countries, there is still a residency to do, but finishing earlier makes a family, especially a large family, more feasible. |
#75
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Preparing sibling for birth process?
"Banty" wrote in message ... In article , toypup says... wrote in message ... I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a button, women will jump on that opportunity. And why not? If a woman can do It as well as or better than a man and she wants to do it, why not? This air conditioned office thing is just plain silly. There are female soldiers, female firefighters, female ironworkers, female atheletes. Never mind recent examples, we have Clara Barton working in hot battlefields, Jane Goodall working and living in jungles. I guess he imagines it's the women shouldn't swe..., um, perspire. No, ladies merely glow surely? Debbie It's the woman-on-pedestal thing. It's the old expectation that she be an object of admiration for physical looks, while fulfilling a limited set of roles. That's long been confused with 'respect'. Banty |
#76
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Preparing sibling for birth process?
On Apr 13, 11:28 pm, " wrote:
I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a button, women will jump on that opportunity. Right. There are no female construction workers. Right. No woman would dare to lift a hammer. uh-huh. Those callouses on my hands didn't appear there by magic! My husband would love to restore our home with the push of a button, alas it is not to be, so I must use my tools. |
#77
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Preparing sibling for birth process?
On Apr 14, 12:05 am, "toypup" wrote:
wrote in message ... I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a button, women will jump on that opportunity. And why not? If a woman can do It as well as or better than a man and she wants to do it, why not? We are not living In primitive conditions anymore and so we are not constrained by them. but I agree entirely with the rest of your statement. The point I was making was that the traditional 50s marriage model was for the woman always to be the one who stayed home. You may have meant the phrase 'traditional marriage of the 50s' in a looser sense, in which case we may be talking at cross-purposes. [...] I could care less who stays home. However, I also think having predetermined roles in place can avoid arguments and build and maintain a healthy relationship. It is also important to note that each role is equally important to the stability of the family. When my wife stayed home, she wasn't seen as a maid (even though her friends told her she was) and I didn't consider myself to be a walking ATM machine. Both her and my role were equally important. I do agree that someone should stay home with the child, if possible. I also agree that both the role of provider and SAHP are equally important. You know, I used to think this, and still hope that in a few years when the bills are paid off, I can stay home because I *want* to. However, after having my child in daycare for some 18 months now, I've learned the value of it. She's really thriving, and though I am sure I could teach her a lot, I can't provide 6 other kids of multiple ages to play with her all day, every day and teach her things of their own, nor do I have the experience of child-rearing for 25 years, as my babysitter does, to guide me. DD really loves her daycare, and I almost feel guilty when we're home alone on weekends because she has just mom and dad instead of a bunch of kids to play with. Even if we were to do playgroups, we wouldn't be able to do that 8 hrs/day everyday. As a mom - even one who's been around kids and helped rear others kids all her adult life, I really turn to my babysitter for advice and suggestions, as she's had so much more, and varied experience. I personally prefer that I be home rather than DH. It's sort of a selfish thing, because I want to see my kids grow up. I'm glad I have that choice. I wonder if men would like the choice to be home sometimes. My DH likes the idea in theory, but realizes he'd have a hard time doing it in practice. |
#78
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Preparing sibling for birth process?
On Apr 14, 8:07 am, Beliavsky wrote:
On Apr 6, 4:45 pm, Sarah Vaughan wrote: wrote: On Mar 24, 9:09 am, Sarah Vaughan wrote: wrote: [...] So yes, a traditional marriage of the "50's" where a woman is not selfish and is supportive of her husband is much better than a modern marriage with a high divorce rate. [...] As I understand it, the traditional marriages to which you refer have two salient features: 1. One partner gives up their career, or their chance at having a career, in order to take care of all the cleaning, cooking, and childcare needs of the couple. Ideally, one person should stay home with the children. When they're young, yes. That doesn't mean the entire job should fall to a single person within the marriage. For many marriages, it might work very well for both partners to work part-time so that they can split childcare between them. Or for the two to alternate the time they take off so that first one person takes a career break of a couple of years, then the other. The obvious problem is that working half the hours often means earning less than 50% of the original income, because part-timers are much less likely to progress within their organizations to positions of greater responsibility and pay. It also shuts you out of certain high- paying careers, such as investment banking or management consulting. Often, a couple can maximize its income by having one spouse work full time, and almost always that spouse is the husband, in part because few men want to be full-time dads. A woman can stay at home for a few years when the children are young and resume her career later. I believe that's what, for example, Nancy Pelosi (speaker of the House), mother of five, did. A woman can do this no more than a man can. It isn't dependent upon gender but on career. Some careers allow for time out, others don't. You'd have a hard time being an academic research in the sciences and taking a few years off, then go back and try to get tenure, let alone grants to fund your work if you haven't been active in your field in a number of years. That's true whether you're a man or a woman. It also only often works if you're just starting out in your career and willing to resume at a low level then work your way up. It's not easy to re-enter the field at the same level you left it, if it is above entry-level. |
#79
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Preparing sibling for birth process?
"cjra" wrote in message
... On Apr 14, 12:05 am, "toypup" wrote: wrote in message ... I mean with the advent of air conditioned offices and careers in which men and women can produce equal results, such as in computers. The jobs of the past women did not want to do and they still do not want to do jobs of physical labor. However, if there ever becomes a day where a person can construct a building or home with a push of a button, women will jump on that opportunity. And why not? If a woman can do It as well as or better than a man and she wants to do it, why not? We are not living In primitive conditions anymore and so we are not constrained by them. but I agree entirely with the rest of your statement. The point I was making was that the traditional 50s marriage model was for the woman always to be the one who stayed home. You may have meant the phrase 'traditional marriage of the 50s' in a looser sense, in which case we may be talking at cross-purposes. [...] I could care less who stays home. However, I also think having predetermined roles in place can avoid arguments and build and maintain a healthy relationship. It is also important to note that each role is equally important to the stability of the family. When my wife stayed home, she wasn't seen as a maid (even though her friends told her she was) and I didn't consider myself to be a walking ATM machine. Both her and my role were equally important. I do agree that someone should stay home with the child, if possible. I also agree that both the role of provider and SAHP are equally important. You know, I used to think this, and still hope that in a few years when the bills are paid off, I can stay home because I *want* to. However, after having my child in daycare for some 18 months now, I've learned the value of it. She's really thriving, and though I am sure I could teach her a lot, I can't provide 6 other kids of multiple ages to play with her all day, every day and teach her things of their own, nor do I have the experience of child-rearing for 25 years, as my babysitter does, to guide me. DD really loves her daycare, and I almost feel guilty when we're home alone on weekends because she has just mom and dad instead of a bunch of kids to play with. Even if we were to do playgroups, we wouldn't be able to do that 8 hrs/day everyday. Hey Crja, Don't underestimate the value of down time -- quiet play and interaction one-on-one or two-on-one, and even alone time for her. I don't think it would be good for any child to have playgroups every day for 8 hours a day 7-days a week, unless of course you're talking about a large family of siblings. And even then, I think kids need some one-on-one, two-on-one, and alone time. Letting your child play alone is a good thing too, as it helps stimulate her own creativity and allows her to learn how to entertain herself. Don't feel guilty on weekends, instead, relish your time with her (which I'm sure you do), and value your contributions to her. -- Jamie Clark |
#80
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Preparing sibling for birth process?
In article ,
cjra says... On Apr 14, 8:07 am, Beliavsky wrote: On Apr 6, 4:45 pm, Sarah Vaughan wrote: wrote: On Mar 24, 9:09 am, Sarah Vaughan wrote: wrote: [...] So yes, a traditional marriage of the "50's" where a woman is not selfish and is supportive of her husband is much better than a modern marriage with a high divorce rate. [...] As I understand it, the traditional marriages to which you refer have two salient features: 1. One partner gives up their career, or their chance at having a career, in order to take care of all the cleaning, cooking, and childcare needs of the couple. Ideally, one person should stay home with the children. When they're young, yes. That doesn't mean the entire job should fall to a single person within the marriage. For many marriages, it might work very well for both partners to work part-time so that they can split childcare between them. Or for the two to alternate the time they take off so that first one person takes a career break of a couple of years, then the other. The obvious problem is that working half the hours often means earning less than 50% of the original income, because part-timers are much less likely to progress within their organizations to positions of greater responsibility and pay. It also shuts you out of certain high- paying careers, such as investment banking or management consulting. Often, a couple can maximize its income by having one spouse work full time, and almost always that spouse is the husband, in part because few men want to be full-time dads. A woman can stay at home for a few years when the children are young and resume her career later. I believe that's what, for example, Nancy Pelosi (speaker of the House), mother of five, did. A woman can do this no more than a man can. It isn't dependent upon gender but on career. Some careers allow for time out, others don't. Pelosi was amazingly well-connected politically to begin with. You're right - some careers can handle it, some can't (an academic career? be ready to be consigned to research associate!). Some people can do it (connections in the family), some can't. It all depends. Suffice to say we don't see very many people taking decades long sabbaticals for other reasons more compelling than raising a family! Else we'd see it much more often. A good friend of mine has a master's degree, but now that her kids are teens, she's having a heck of a time reentering the market. She's actually been asked if she can be a receptionist! She has a master's degree in administration and military experience to boot. But she's been raising two kids and working as a high school tutor. But it's not been *current* experience in her field, and it's taken her out of forming connections. And, no, this cant they tell you to say about how householding has given wunnerful administrative and organizational experience just doesn't wash in the real world - they've heard it a million times. Her biggest worry? (Other than going stir-crazy) - she and her husband had thought that her previous experience and degrees would be the fallback position should he ever lose his IT job. That didn't happen in their 25 years of marriage, but it's been a shock to find out how little earning power she would have. You'd have a hard time being an academic research in the sciences and taking a few years off, then go back and try to get tenure, let alone grants to fund your work if you haven't been active in your field in a number of years. That's true whether you're a man or a woman. Heck - I worked in a well-known research lab for five years between college (B.S.) and grad school. I was one of the students on the search committee to full academic positions at my grad school for our engineering department - in my early '30s I would have myself been considered already too OLD to start in a tenure track position! It also only often works if you're just starting out in your career and wiling to resume at a low level then work your way up. It's not easy to re-enter the field at the same level you left it, if it is above entry-level. You have to go back to entry level for a lot of things; even worse than that as the education is considered stale! Banty |
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